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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:28:00 -
[1]
Hi all,
The title about says it all but I will flesh it out a bit. I engaged a crusader once and lost - at the time though I did not have t2 precision cruises nor a t2 cruise launcher. That guy was also a 3 year vet with 5's in all skills related to flying that ship so he told me it was a good fight but he was very tough in that ship.
Now I have t2 cruises and a t2 launcher in a Hound. I have pretty decent skills; about 2mm missiles points probably being most relevant to this. So, are interceptors in general poppable by a lone 2 cruise bomber?
The reason I think yes - but am hesitant to try it out without a few extra opinions - is that I duo'd with a manticore once with t2 gear and when we engaged an interceptor it popped after either the 6th, 7th or 8th cruise. My partner hit with 3, I hit with 2, and then either 1 2 or 3 of his next volley popped him. He claims to pop interceptors all the time solo in the manticore so I figure a solo hound 'ought' to have a shot.
What do you think?
Regards,
Eudoxus
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:31:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 26/04/2006 14:32:28
Not really. With precision cruise or normal cruise, the best Ive ever seen is two volleys, and that assumes he isnt plated/resistance buffed. Thinking over the numbers in my head, I dont believe it's possible. Im sure someone who is less busy can do numbers for you :P
Usually, we fire 2x EM missiles closely followed by 2x Explosive to pop frigs.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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DeadDuck
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:40:00 -
[3]
Edited by: DeadDuck on 26/04/2006 14:41:52
Edited by: DeadDuck on 26/04/2006 14:40:39
Yes it is possible. I've seen it in Torrinos. The inty, (crow) was near the EC gate and on a sudden I only see a the target painter and then missiles heading the inty ... insta poped...
He was cloacked and I belive that he was using a passive targeter. The inty wasnt moving when he was shot.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:41:00 -
[4]
Seems odd to me that it is not doable - interceptor and bomber are the same class of ship. One built for speed, one built for launching cruises (which are vastly higher damage than rockets). I would like to think/hope/wish that if I decloaked 50km from you or so that by the time you were into your optimal range you would already be chowing down on devestator cruise t2 number 4 and going pop. Even if not on that one - as the prior duo experience shows is not the case - the 6th one ought to do the trick. Seems odd that I would be dead by then. Granted I am not equiped with armor hardeners etc. The long and short is I think bombers get the very short end of the stick compared to interceptors and hope for a 'look at' some day from ccp.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:46:00 -
[5]
Gimme a few, ill work it out for you.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Octov
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:51:00 -
[6]
IÆve seen a corpmate do it in a Manticore with Fury. There was a pirate in our home system and we set out a poor little ship (I forget what) as belt bait. The ceptor came in for the bait and wham one volley at nearly 500 damage (after resistances) times three missiles and that was all she wrote.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Eudoxus on 26/04/2006 14:54:27
Octov, that is the reason why when this hound "Brown Pants Moment" goes boom I hope to have caldari frig at 5 so I can replace it with the very predicatable 'I win' Caldari ships. Thus will be born "Browner Pants Moment"
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Scarlet Pimpernel
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:55:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: DeadDuck
Edited by: DeadDuck on 26/04/2006 He was cloacked and I belive that he was using a passive targeter. The inty wasnt moving when he was shot.
Doesnt sound right, IIRC you cant activate any modules or have any current targets while cloaked.
I'm not saying he didnt pop the inty with cruises I'm just saying he wouldnt have been cloaked at the time (possibly shortly beforehand....)
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Octov
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Posted - 2006.04.26 14:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Eudoxus
Edited by: Eudoxus on 26/04/2006 14:54:27
Octov, that is the reason why when this hound "Brown Pants Moment" goes boom I hope to have caldari frig at 5 so I can replace it with the very predicatable 'I win' Caldari ships. Thus will be born "Browner Pants Moment"
Yah I just realized you were asking about the non-manticores. YouÆre quick, I didnÆt even get a chance to edit.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.26 15:05:00 -
[10]
Yea, I hate to have to do it as I would like to stick with my Minnie ships if at all possible. But that 3rd cruise is a GARGANTUAN advantage that is just way too lopsided to not go for. Sure, you can put ballistic controls in the lows of the Hound as you have more lows. In reality though, on my current loadout I tried to get one and it didn't quite fit so I stuck in a warp core stab which did. Regardless, even if you could go with 3 bcu's in lows you would only be at 2.25 cruises vs 3. Sorry, but that makes the Manticore just too hard to not take, Minnie loyalties or no.
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Kateryne
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Posted - 2006.04.26 15:08:00 -
[11]
A hound can easily solo inty's assuming you are also using painters to boost your missiles, and howy's to help pop the target. Hound is one of the few bombers that can fit missiles, cloak AND a rack of it's best weapons (280mm howys or 200mm autos), making it a damn fine bomber.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.04.26 15:11:00 -
[12]
So,
Cruise Max Dmg = Base*Cruise*Warhead Ups*Ship Bonus = 300*1.25*1.1*1.25 = 515.625
.....this is as far as I got cos Im busy and now I have to lock up. Lets see if someone beats me to finishing this before I get home later tonight :P
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.26 15:21:00 -
[13]
Mmmm, painters to boost my missiles. Therein lies a problem. I am using boosters to get my lock times down leaving no room for painters.
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Dark PIne
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Posted - 2006.04.26 16:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Eudoxus
Mmmm, painters to boost my missiles. Therein lies a problem. I am using boosters to get my lock times down leaving no room for painters.
If you are using Precision Cruises, you can get their sig radius below 20 with skills and implants. Then you don't need target painters (I know that Precisions are about to get nerfed, but until then...)
Originally by: Maya Rkell
1v1, for BS, is an abberant situation and you must not balance for it.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.26 17:01:00 -
[15]
Sure, lets nerf precisions, the only thing that makes a bomber worth flying 
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.26 18:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Eudoxus
Seems odd to me that it is not doable - interceptor and bomber are the same class of ship. One built for speed, one built for launching cruises (which are vastly higher damage than rockets). I would like to think/hope/wish that if I decloaked 50km from you or so that by the time you were into your optimal range you would already be chowing down on devestator cruise t2 number 4 and going pop. Even if not on that one - as the prior duo experience shows is not the case - the 6th one ought to do the trick. Seems odd that I would be dead by then. Granted I am not equiped with armor hardeners etc. The long and short is I think bombers get the very short end of the stick compared to interceptors and hope for a 'look at' some day from ccp.
Yes, because death before you can DO anything as the interceptor is SUCH fun. Basibally, you're saying that the only possible response to a bomber should be "warp out instantly".
Bombers need to lose the bonus versus frigs at the very least. It's stupid that they're good against other frigs....they should ditch the stealth gimmick, get AF resists and hit points and be able to mount 3-4 of the new heavy rocket launchers CCP have talked about.
For hitting BS, not frigates.
BOMBER. Sigh.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2006.04.26 18:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Eudoxus
Sure, lets nerf precisions, the only thing that makes a bomber worth flying
sadly they're also used by larger ships to similar effect :/
none of this would have happened if bombers got their own damn weapon, as cheap as that solution woulda been
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Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.04.26 18:35:00 -
[18]
they should have made them torpedo boats that never show on overview even when uncloaked. and give them a massive velocity and damage bonus to the said torpedos. EVE has been needing a Motor Torpedo Boat anyway.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.26 18:46:00 -
[19]
Torps would be TOO nasty, which is probably why they went with cruise. The heavy rockets with a RoF bonus, on the other hand...
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.04.26 19:03:00 -
[20]
Realy now, unless you're sitting still it's impossible to get one volleyed.
If you're a sitting duck, then serves you right. Popping frigs is the only thing bombers are good for, plus the fun factor is almost <null> , especialy compared to ceptors.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.26 19:31:00 -
[21]
"Popping frigs is the only thing bombers are good for"
And what I disagree with...
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Mighty Dread
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Posted - 2006.04.26 21:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Mighty Dread on 26/04/2006 21:56:15
Definatly I feel the Stealth Bombers need an upgrade (or at least the Hound, LOL). Your entire defense is based upon your ability to recloak before your locked. They have zero staying power, your locked your pretty much dead. But if you recloak too soon then your missles go fizzz..nothin you might as well shoot snowballs. Same with the needed range, if you can't hit anything (ship moves outta way or defenders respond) then what's the point of shootin? You can't warp cloaked which makes it hard to sneak up on anything that isn't standin still for a long time. In fact I dunno how your suppose to use the element of suprise if you are heading towards a target as oppose to a target approaching you. Stealth Bombers should be like Klingon Bird Of Preys.
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Jacinto Naysmith
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Posted - 2006.04.26 23:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kateryne
A hound can easily solo inty's assuming you are also using painters to boost your missiles, and howy's to help pop the target. Hound is one of the few bombers that can fit missiles, cloak AND a rack of it's best weapons (280mm howys or 200mm autos), making it a damn fine bomber.
Target painters are useless for stealth bombers. Even more so with precision cruise missiles. You're right on the projectiles part though.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.04.27 09:42:00 -
[24]
Yea, it seems everybody think these things generally need some work.
I don't have a problem with using them to get frigs given they are a frig. If they are meant to be used in bigger ops to shoot at big things from range then I don't agree with that as they are simply instant poppable by virtually anything. Nor is the cloak your answer even at range - you cloak and can't move that fast and your enemy in an interceptor for example races to your last visual location and decloaks you. Not possible you say? Entirely possible as I have seen it myself more than once and was lucky once, not lucky the second time.
So if t2 precisions cruises are the problem, then give these ships specific weapons and eliminate t2 cruises does not bother me at all. What would bother me is the cruise missile specialization I spent a month training up being lost then.
To be honest, I don't think it would be overpowering to let these ship warps while cloaked - at least then you can run after attacking and failing rather than being quite likely to die. It would however be overpowering to not have cloaked ships show in local - although I like the idea to heighten the sense of paranoia for travel never knowing whether systems are really safe. That would surely get way too many people whining. The biggest silliness though is the whole not having missiles hit if you cloak. The missile ought to have a guidance system in it so once I shoot I ought to be able to cloak again imho. This would still not be overpowered as I can only get off one volley which wont insta pop most things anyway and prevents me from staying in a fight.
But taking away the cloaking 'gimmick' would basically shelve them for me. Can't be very 'stealthy' if you are out in the open saying 'look at me!'.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.27 10:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Yes, because death before you can DO anything as the interceptor is SUCH fun. Basibally, you're saying that the only possible response to a bomber should be "warp out instantly".
Bombers need to lose the bonus versus frigs at the very least. It's stupid that they're good against other frigs....they should ditch the stealth gimmick, get AF resists and hit points and be able to mount 3-4 of the new heavy rocket launchers CCP have talked about.
For hitting BS, not frigates.
BOMBER. Sigh.
I think this is the best idea for Bombers, or one stage further. Using this a a template, re-do the Stealth bomber to be a weaker tanking and hitting cloaked version and then add an Assault Bomber as well.
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jin jiny
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Posted - 2006.04.27 11:01:00 -
[26]
ah this is a great topic, here is my perspective on this as an interceptor pilot. Bombers are tricky to kill, it all depends on timing. If bomber gets in 1 good volley that does decent dmg before ceptor gets to him than there is a good chance that cetor will die before bomber does, BUT if ceptors dmg is in same time as bombers than bomber will pop first, so the trick is for bomber in geting that first decent shot before ceptor starts hurtng him.
personaly once my mwd is on and i am goinglike 4k/s towards a bomber his cruise do ****y dmg, so prety much if bomber doesnt catch me stationery he should be dead, be it manticore or hound. ofcoarse having 80% structure left once bomber pops dosnt take away from the victory.
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4 LOM
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Posted - 2006.04.27 11:04:00 -
[27]
Bombers need to be revamped to use citadel torpedos so they are really crappy against small ships but a real threat to big ships. this forces fleets to have small ant frig ships to counter the stealth bombers. But i have said this many times and nothing has come of it. They were orignaly supposed to be anti large ship frigates, wow have they ever turned out to be the oposite. (although nothing like one vollying the enemy fleets stealth bombers in my manticore lol that is fun).
Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner. 
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Car Wars
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Posted - 2006.04.27 11:28:00 -
[28]
Originally by: jin jiny
personaly once my mwd is on and i am goinglike 4k/s towards a bomber his cruise do ****y dmg, so prety much if bomber doesnt catch me stationery he should be dead, be it manticore or hound. ofcoarse having 80% structure left once bomber pops dosnt take away from the victory.
This should not be possible. If you approach a target, whatever the speed and your transversal is zero you should still be toast. Hence you should be forced to zig-zag to a target. Think something is wrong then with the missile programming. Pure energy wise you should be getting bigger hits when travelling dead-on into missiles.
Somebody know how it works ingame?
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2006.04.27 11:38:00 -
[29]
only noob ceptor pilots get killed by bombers.
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Marine HK4861
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Posted - 2006.04.27 12:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Eudoxus
The biggest silliness though is the whole not having missiles hit if you cloak. The missile ought to have a guidance system in it so once I shoot I ought to be able to cloak again imho. This would still not be overpowered as I can only get off one volley which wont insta pop most things anyway and prevents me from staying in a fight.
While I'm not a fan of the 'cloak and your missiles stop working' issue, I do think the ability to uncloak, fire off a volley of missiles and recloak before the target can respond would be extremely unbalancing and will have people screaming 'nerf'.
From a backstory point of view, normal missiles work off the ship's guidance system, so it would make sense they need a detonation command from the ship.
However has anybody tried what happens with cloaks and FOF missiles? These do have their own guidance system so should be able to hit something even while the launching was cloaked.
I know this won't be of much use at extreme distance, but it would require a much greater degree of pilot skill and nerve to pull off than the current role of 'long distance ganking'.
It'll also make fleet battles a whole lot more interesting for stealth bomber pilots and more un-nerving for the enemy fleet.
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