This is a fake controversy. No concern about this actually exists. It is not uncommon for intelligence agencies to have unspecified budgets, nor are average Federation citizens worried about it.

Gallenteans.
They are those, who are afraid of fight head to head, and instead backstab you.
That's why their cowardly secrecy.

Each gallentean "civilian" can be a camouflaged Black Eagle agent.
Show no mercy to gallentean swines!

Please don't judge so broadly. I, for instance, actually am worried about that. If an Intelligence Agency budget is being used to violate our people's own rights - which is also not uncommon - there should be enough transparency for it's budget to be regulated by the representatives of the people. Else we may just become like the State.

Intelligence agencies can't function without being away from the public eye, it is part of the job description. Their utility relies on it. To have to justify the budget with public committees or requisitions would be to announce activities publicly - which undermines the very function of intelligence. You cannot be effective as an intelligence agency if you are required to announce what you know and what you are capable of.

And again, the effect of the SDII on the lives of average Gallente is minimal.

Has anyone else noticed that Gutter Press almost never fails to list the opinion of at least one exotic dancer of some kind in most of their articles?

Indeed, they can't function properly away from the public eye. To function in total secrecy, however, is a distinct matter. It has never been a case of black or white.

See, agencies like the Black Eagles and the FIO may sometimes violate individual rights and freedoms in the name of "security". Terrorism, remote crimes, money laundering and "Federation defense interests" have often been used as reasons for over-extensive and undue surveillance, intervention and monitoring of civilian activity by such agencies.

See, Mr. Vorpalstar, that instead of actually protecting one's freedoms, Intelligence agencies may be responsible for violating them in the name of security. And to go further and say that it is okay to violate some rights in the name of collective security - well, that's a quite opposite to what the Federation truly stands for.

To oppose total secrecy is merely a way of guaranteeing that agents within these organizations can be held accountable for their actions should they incur in one of those violations.

Total secrecy from the public does not necessarily mean the SDII is entirely unaccountable from the FIO as a whole or the president. Simply put, we cannot know what accountability structures are in place because secrecy from public view is an absolute necessity. The accountability structures of intelligence communities are not publicly known for the same reason the activities of the agencies are not known - it risks their effectiveness. If they become publicly accountable, then they may be publicly investigated - which defeats their purpose. Lack of public accountability does not mean they have lack of accountability altogether.

As I stated earlier, the SDII's affect on the lives of Federation citizens is virtually nonexistent beyond being culturally well-known and inspiring rumors, as all intelligence agencies do. Concerns of removing liberty are unwarranted at this time.

But hell, if they're spying on my private sphere, for whatever reasons, because everybody on the top brass decided so, I should know in order to have a say in it. Either by voting on a candidate that will oppose that or through referendum in our direct mechanisms.

If there were a Senate subcommitee investigation into the SDII; why has it not been reported on by a more reputable news source than The Gutter Press? This article seems to be nothing more than a slight to stir up animosity and distrust against those in the security and intelligence fields.

The feigned concerns of an exotic dancer, a vending machine repair man, and a pharmaceuticals enthusiast, are hardly evidence of any want for an investigation, public or otherwise.

To those various agents seen and unseen who defend The Federation... I salute you.

Has anyone else noticed that Gutter Press almost never fails to list the opinion of at least one exotic dancer of some kind in most of their articles?

I think you fail to understand the nature of grey and black operations. If FIO felt the need to spy upon your friends and organization, they are not going to approach you and ask your permission or even inform you of the fact as it would compromise their informant/agent.

I personally have a great dislike for the organization known as Black Eagles as they are not actually under the umbrella of the FIO. We do not need the Eagles.

We do need a security/intelligence agency and that agency does need to have the flexibility to operate within the fringes. There does need to be oversight and accountability, but their operations and scope of power need not be made publicly known.

1. It is not a specific investigation committee examining the SDII, the subcommittee's role is scrutinising value for money for a number of programmes.

2. As a media corporation that is not beholden to any one nation state government, Gutter Press Interstellar Media Corporation has a great deal more editorial flexibility in reporting news, compared to other news agencies, who are often restricted by political concerns. Our journalism colleagues at Amarr Certified News would find it hard to cover news stories such as finding the Bottomless Pit, due to theological concerns.

3. I see you dismiss the opinions of 3 Federal citizens, due to their profession, while not dismissing the views of a 4th citizen, a drone whisperer. Perhaps you consider some professions beneath contempt, hmmm?

4. On the subject of secret intelligence services being secret. The SDII operate a number of starships, purchased at taxpayers expense. Who are the contractors that supply those ships? What is the cost of the SDII specific modifications? How does the average Federal Citizen know that their tax money is being spent appropriately? How does the average citizen know that these ships are not simply a means to siphon taxpayers money into the contractors wallets? If the SDII pay 2Bn isk for a modified Megathron, where is the evidence that the money was well spent ? And not something like 2Bn ISK for a 1.5Bn Megathron and 500M ISK into the contractors slush fund?

I do not fail to understand the nature of such operations. I actually know them quite well.

Intelligence organizations can't simply spy on someone when they feel they need to. They need a judicial order. They need to go to a judge and present the adequate reasons for spying someone: e.g., he/she has a history of felony or is under high suspicions. That's the kind of accountability I'm talking about.

If civilians are being monitored without respect to the due process, because Intelligence agencies can act in total secrecy, then I'd like to know, so I can do my part against it. That's my entire point here.

4. The identity of contractors supplying ships, and equipment should remain undisclosed to the public eye due to security reasons, as should budgeting specifics.

4. The identity of contractors supplying ships, and equipment should remain undisclosed to the public eye due to security reasons, as should budgeting specifics.

You obviously have alot of trust and confidence in your goverment Noden

Hearsay, presuppositions, and unfounded accusations are not evident of any wrong doings or breaches of public trust by intelligence operatives or officials.

Those agencies who work within the sphere of intelligence operations are entrusted by those elected by the people, with the safe guarding of information and activities which are of vital importance to The Federation and its allies.

Unimpeded vigilant intelligence operations are crucial to ensuring that The Federation stays ready to respond to a wide range of threats.

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.

Because nothing says freedom like an organization that can spy on you, arrest you, kidnap you, or even murder you for literally any reason they see fit. Because nothing says Democracy like an organization who's leader was appointed essentially for life, and can disregard any laws that have been voted on for literally any reason they see fit.

All they need is the suspicion (let alone actual proof) that you are a threat to national security (which can be as petty as jaywalking or supporting radical political groups) in order to justify ruining or even ending your life.

If we are truly dependent on the Black Eagles, then the Federation is dead. Luckily, we aren't. At least not yet.

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.

We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.

Why are we taking a GP story so seriously? O.o

We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.

[quote=Straton Technos]
We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.

High moral standards? You don't have any idea how morbidly hilarious that is.

If you could see some of the reports documenting their actions, your opinion of them would change for the worse. Unfortunately, not only are those reports either classified or declassified but censored to the point of uselessness, they're also from some of the agencies diametrically opposed to the Black Eagles. So that's even less reason for you to believe the validity of them.

What I can do is suggest you watch the news more closely in the coming months. It's only a matter of time, really.

Clearly News stations have no propaganda behind them. That is always FACTUAL information. Ill be sure to tune into the gutter press. I can appreciate your opinion on this matter, however are you relying on the news to get your facts?

The identity of contractors supplying ships, and equipment should remain undisclosed to the public eye due to security reasons, as should budgeting specifics.

I believe you are mistaken on this, yes the organization was created in response to traitors but it was an integrity commission. That is clearly defined in the history books.

There is clear definition to what the organization is and why it was founded.

In fact where you say my description is wrong, was pulled directly from the same source your provided for the ALLEGED defector. Thats selective sourcing. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles

All of the folks listing actions taken by the Black Eagles are completely wasting their time. The fact is, rumors are simply rumors, hearsay is simply hearsay. Those such as Mornay were nothing but unknown individuals interviewed by journalists. Nothing they have said has ever been verified in any way. He told a story, people listened. There's no way of knowing if it was true.

The simple fact of the matter is that intelligence agencies cannot properly function with public oversight and the actions of the Black Eagles, whatever they may or may not be, do not have noticeable detriment on the lives of Federation citizens. Our daily lives continue on as normal with the SDII currently functioning as it is - and if that functioning helps preserve that daily life, it surely could no longer do so if it was open to public scrutiny. Uncomfortable truths and unsettling actions are handled by every government so their average citizen doesn't have to. Freedom is attained through security.

And you have to ask, why would these people start rumors in the first place? They're identities are hidden. Agent Mornay is just a pseudonym and most defectors don't even give a false name. Clearly they are not trying to gain popularity or money from these stories. So the only other reason they would start talking is because their stories might have some merit.

Are you not a little concerned that their power could be abused? How long will it take before being "a threat to the Federation" moves into supporting differing political parties? Saying "seditious" things? Hell it's probably started already. I used to be a staunch supporter of the Black Eagles, but then I started to think about an old and ancient totem.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"

What's the point of defending ourselves from an enemy, if we become our own enemy?

Clearly News stations have no propaganda behind them. That is always FACTUAL information. Ill be sure to tune into the gutter press. I can appreciate your opinion on this matter, however are you relying on the news to get your facts?

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.

The bottom line is unwarranted speculation and fear mongering does no service to anyone.
There is no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that our intelligence services have subverted freedom, or attempted to do so.
The nature of their activities are on the vanguard of the defense of our Federation.

I never said that they didn't have agendas behind them. I just said watch the news; you'll see enough when the stuff behind the curtains start blowing up, literally and figuratively.

And no, I'm not relying on the news. I spent eight years serving as an intelligence officer and counterintelligence officer for both Ishukone Watch and Caldary Navy before becoming a capsuleer. I know what the Black Eagles are doing not only because I worked on teams working in opposition to the Gallente but I also had the access to files on their histories and the things they've done around the State and the Federation. They're in the Republic and Empire also; every hole in security they find they'll slither into and try to exploit.

They're in the Republic and Empire also; every hole in security they find they'll slither into and try to exploit.

Look at what happened in the State. The Provist were hailed as heroes! By the time the Caldari people realized they were anything but heroes, protestors were being gunned down, political adversaries were vanishing, and the media was completely Provist controlled.

Wether or not there is evidence that it happened is irrelevant. The very notion that it could happen should be enough for concern. The fact that so many people are content with "Nothing to see hear! Move along!" as the official answer to these issues is absolutely horrifying.

Look at what happened in the State. The Provist were hailed as heroes! By the time the Caldari people realized they were anything but heroes, protestors were being gunned down, political adversaries were vanishing, and the media was completely Provist controlled.

"But the Caldari kicked them out eventually! We'll do the same if the Black Eagles get abusive!" You begin typing, thinking you've turned my argument around. No.

The Caldari think differently than us. As long as the beer keeps flowing and the strippers keep dancing, the fickle Gallente people will neither notice nor care.

Did they not teach you how to make an inference on things in school, kid? Or you just practicing while waiting for your cheerleader outfit to arrive?

Again, take the rumors and alleged reports for what you will. Whether you believe it or not. Whether there is a plentitude of evidence or none whatsoever. It doesn't matter.

No organization in the Federation should have the power to do literally whatever they want. Doesn't matter if they are here to save or oppress us.

Yeah, let's just allow these institutions that are already flawed from the point of view of our democracy and legal system's base principles, besides being potentially abusive, continue working until there is some kind of abuse and violation of such principles that's so evident that it can't be denied or covered up, despite circumstantial evidence that such abuses are already occurring, for us to do something about it.

Seems like a good idea.

And again, as I have stated several times, we do not know if they have accountability or oversight from the FIO or president. We do not know what accountability measures they do or do not have in place. There is no reason to assume they have none whatsoever. We merely know that they do not have public accountability. As it should be.

Yeah, let's just allow these institutions that are already flawed from the point of view of our democracy and legal system's base principles, besides being potentially abusive, continue working until there is some kind of abuse and violation of such principles that's so evident that it can't be denied or covered up, despite circumstantial evidence that such abuses are already occurring, for us to do something about it.

Seems like a good idea.

Freedom is not Free. It comes at a great cost, and can only be maintained through eternal vigilance.

Why am I reminded of the old maxim GÇ£In war the law falls silentGÇ¥.

A greater and wiser man that I once said. GÇ£Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.GÇ¥

I cannot disagree with his sentiment, It is often necessary to break the letter of the law to defend the spirit of it.

How could you possibly protect the spirit of the law by trampling on it?

Freedom is not Free. It comes at a great cost, and can only be maintained through eternal vigilance.

We should be thankful for those in our Armed Forces and Intelligence Services who choose to serve our Federation and defend her interests.

Why am I reminded of the old maxim GÇ£In war the law falls silentGÇ¥.

A greater and wiser man that I once said. GÇ£Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.GÇ¥

I cannot disagree with his sentiment, It is often necessary to break the letter of the law to defend the spirit of it.

If I have to explain the concept to you it would most likely be a waste of time.

....we shouldn't to know their tactics...

What we should know is what they are allowed to do, and what they are forbidden from doing.

To be fair, any intelligence agency in any empire (or corporation for that matter) that isn't doing this is bad at their job.

Those are mutually exclusive.

And beyond that, actions must be judged within a context. In order to hold someone's actions publicly accountable, the context also must be made public. The amount of information released in trials or committee hearings is extensive. It is not the appropriate place for accountability of intelligence agencies. Non-public committees? Non-public investigations? Feasible, and for all we know might already exist. We simply do not know.

The lack of public information is not unique to the SDII. This is common sense for how intelligence agencies function. A significant portion of their job is information; you cause that information to be public, you have removed their effectiveness. It is vital for others to not know what they do or what they know. It is simply the fundamental nature of intelligence work. What you are demanding is for the Federation to not have a team of intelligence agencies as effective as other states.

As for your attempts at political theory, James Syagrius responded sufficiently.

Naturally it could have been fake. It's not unknown to plant false leads like that in ships computers as a contingency that, if they do somehow fall into enemy hands, then the supposed "information leak" could work to a benefit. But as an author to a few of those types of tactics, this didn't seem like one.

You mean refusing to answer a question? Yeah, a sheep like you probably likes that.

Obviously this conversation has long since reached its limitations. In the future, you would do well to remember that disagreeing on a single issue does not require the people involved to sling insults at each other or begin to view the other as some form of enemy, especially when they are ostensibly on the same side in the grand scheme of things. And considering how underrepresented the Federation is in public forums such as this, it is even more relevant.

James started getting passive agressive with me and you supported him. In response, I called you a sheep. Quit pretending you have the moral high ground.

I don't view you as an enemy, stop being melodramatic. The only people that I consider my enemies are those who at any point in time posed a real threat to me or someone I cared about.

But when it comes to the Republic, you'd expect a least a little restraint, considering the two factions are supposed to be in bed together.

That said, it worries me that people in the State are more likely to share my concerns about the Black Eagles than my own fellow Gallente. It sort of shows how far we have fallen from what the Federation stands for.

He merely realized the pointlessness of continuing the conversation earlier than I did. Also, I hardly think I am being melodramatic. You were the one beginning to wax philosophical about the foundations of the Federation being thwarted.

Setting aside our differences of opinion regarding the best way to secure liberty and defend freedom. Has this report been verified by any other source, other than Gutter Press? If a Senate subcommittee investigation into the value of budget programs, paid for with Federal tax money exists, why is it only being reported on by one news agency? Such actions by our elected officials would be much more suspicious than assumptions about the operations conducted by FIO, SDII or other intelligence agencies.

I think this begs the question of the integrity of The Gutter Press, and only exposes their intent to either smear the intelligence community through unwarranted fear-mongering , or to garner attention through sensationalist articles.

He said it wasn't worth explaining to me, as if I was unworthy of having something answered. You used that to jab at my political views. Again, stop pretending. All I did was call you a sheep, something Anslo did earlier and you didnt bat an eye at, so why now?

So being concerned about our values is melodramatic now? Worrying if the values that make the Federation different and special are being protected is unwarranted? Being upset when the very foundations that caused trillions of people to flock to us are broken is now silly?

It's a satire/parody of real news.

Arguing that one issue is somehow breaking "the very foundations" is melodramatic, yes. The Federation is far more resilient than that.

I believe my point may have been lost or misunderstood, so in that case allow me to ask a different way.

Where is the real news?

Answer: There is none, this is a fake controversy.

You, James, and Noden are all supporting the notion that there are sacrifices to be made. You are in favor of giving away freedom for security. The Federation is certainly very resilient, and it has withstood far greater threats than the Black Eagles. However, the Federation is not invincible. All it takes is the right people with the right actions to do great harm to our nation. All it took was one traitorous man to let the Caldari into Luminaire. If the Black Eagles in their current state really wanted to do something nefarious, they easily could.

You, James, and Noden are all supporting the notion that there are sacrifices to be made. You are in favor of giving away freedom for security.

If a Senate subcommittee investigation into the value of budget programs, paid for with Federal tax money exists, why is it only being reported on by one news agency?

You have to wonder Ms. Maxwell, what would the Black Eagles have to gain from vilifying themselves? Such information could only work against them. Even if they say "Oh! That was just a false lead obviously!" nobody with a mind would believe it. Especially if this leak came from a credible source.

Same goes for these alleged defectors telling their grim stories. They are trying to keep their identities very secret. Wouldn't someone trying to fabricate a story for fame and fortune make themselves very well known? People need to ask why someone would do something when trying to determine if someone would do something.

That said, it worries me that people in the State are more likely to share my concerns about the Black Eagles than my own fellow Gallente. It sort of shows how far we have fallen from what the Federation stands for.

I find that to be a completely bold and mistaken conclusion youGÇÖve made there. None of us ever advocated for giving away freedom. It should be clear however that the assurance of freedom demands security by necessity.

I find it rather hilarious that a Caldari man who isn't even very good at being Caldari is honestly trying to lecture Gallenteans on how to be Gallentean.

With the lip service he pays to freedoms cause, I could almost believe were he to renounce his ties to the more extremist Caldari elements and work to improve his standings with the Federation, then he would make a fine Federation citizen.

...almost...

I don't really care how you will be gallenteans or federals, while you keep you dirty greedy hands out of our planets, our culture, our history and our beliefs.

But while you will be putting your ugly noses into our affairs, and bring us your disgusting "freedoms" and "democracies", we will be cutting off you worthless heads.

Have a nice day!

I find it rather hilarious that a Caldari man who isn't even very good at being Caldari is honestly trying to lecture Gallenteans on how to be Gallentean.

You Gallente's enjoy telling everyone else how they should behave.

We do? I always thought that trait was shared by everyone with a political agenda that accessed the IGS forums.