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caldari tier 3 railgun boat <-wrong i know caldari are raiguns+missile

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DeathWarrior	Posted - 2006.05.01 16:48:00 - [91] What the hell are the people with 12mil SP in Missiles and minimal skills in gunnery gonna do? Will we be forced to go gunnery? If all 4 Tier 3 BS are going to be Turret Boats... Thats basically forcing the missile users/lovers to go Gunnery? Sounds a Bit Unfair tbh. I suppose we could stick to the raven/scorp/phoon .. But does that mean we can't have a go at Tier 3 BS? Yes we 'can' fly them, but I mean effectively. Im not whining(well suppose theres a bit of whining -.- ) , but it just seems a little unfair. Originally by: Tuxford I once tried to kick my brother when I had my pants around my ankle. Probably not my brightest moments.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.01 16:55:00 - [92] Originally by: Sarmaul the harpy is only good with a multimillion isk faction shield booster, are you kidding, the harpy is the best AF in game even with the standard t2 small booster 40km with lead.85km with t2 ammo. very fast cepter/frig killer! -------------------Sig----------------------- Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen
Commander Nikolas	Posted - 2006.05.01 17:10:00 - [93] See I can't understand why in gods name all the Caldari railboats have the PG of Gal & the CPU of Cal... The Caldari railboats can outfit blasters without the huge CPU issue Gal ships have :\| Now they are going to get a battleship version? Seriously can anyone say "only ship in eve that can easily fit 8x Mega Neutron Blasters" (or however many turret hard points it has)... Highs: Mega Neutrons + NOS Mids: Tank, Injector, Scram Lows: RCUs, Damage Mods ... Of course that is probably why CCP is going to give it to them.
nahtoh	Posted - 2006.05.01 18:23:00 - [94] Originally by: DeathWarrior What the hell are the people with 12mil SP in Missiles and minimal skills in gunnery gonna do? Will we be forced to go gunnery? If all 4 Tier 3 BS are going to be Turret Boats... Thats basically forcing the missile users/lovers to go Gunnery? Sounds a Bit Unfair tbh. I suppose we could stick to the raven/scorp/phoon .. But does that mean we can't have a go at Tier 3 BS? Yes we 'can' fly them, but I mean effectively. Im not whining(well suppose theres a bit of whining -.- ) , but it just seems a little unfair. How about train the skills? How large rails users tha had to train for mega so they could use them on ship that could make good use of them? I think you find us kinda immue to the "oh noes I have to train new skills people". You don't have to use the damm ship... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.01 18:33:00 - [95] Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... it is a good day to be a Caldari. At least, more Caldari pirates will be flying "Made in Caldari" ships instead of Minmatar trash. ---------------- May 1st - We love Khatred day. RecruitMe@NOINT!
DeathWarrior	Posted - 2006.05.01 19:52:00 - [96] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: DeathWarrior What the hell are the people with 12mil SP in Missiles and minimal skills in gunnery gonna do? Will we be forced to go gunnery? If all 4 Tier 3 BS are going to be Turret Boats... Thats basically forcing the missile users/lovers to go Gunnery? Sounds a Bit Unfair tbh. I suppose we could stick to the raven/scorp/phoon .. But does that mean we can't have a go at Tier 3 BS? Yes we 'can' fly them, but I mean effectively. Im not whining(well suppose theres a bit of whining -.- ) , but it just seems a little unfair. How about train the skills? How large rails users tha had to train for mega so they could use them on ship that could make good use of them? I think you find us kinda immue to the "oh noes I have to train new skills people". You don't have to use the damm ship... wtf? You have Large Hybrid Spec already done, so you can use your t2 guns on your gallente railboat.. where as the caldari missile users will have to retrain gunnery.. can take about 3 months or so. ( support V etc ) Which the Minimatar/Gallente/Amarr already have trained because there gun boats.. If Amarr T3 Was made a missile boat, dont you think people would be angry at it? I think they would. Originally by: Tuxford I once tried to kick my brother when I had my pants around my ankle. Probably not my brightest moments.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.01 19:58:00 - [97] Originally by: DeathWarrior wtf? You have Large Hybrid Spec already done, so you can use your t2 guns on your gallente railboat.. where as the caldari missile users will have to retrain gunnery.. Not so much to train since you have Medium railgun spec for your Eagle, right? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Jude Kopenhagen	Posted - 2006.05.01 20:15:00 - [98] Well, forget what I said earlier about not caring whether the new BS will be rail based since I resigned myself to the fact that I won't fly a Caldari BS since they did not support Gunnery. I saw the concept art and I will cry if the new ship is not a rail boat... I have another question, in regards to the previous few posts: Where does it say that missile users have to fly the new ship? I know plenty pilots who never flew the t3 Merlin and t3 Moa but stuck to the t2 variants. Clearly there is no rule that you have to fly every ship out there. So if the new BS does not suit you, stick to the Raven and give a chance to those who are not missile specialists a chance to fly a BS, is that so horrible? Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
nahtoh	Posted - 2006.05.01 20:44:00 - [99] Originally by: DeathWarrior Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: DeathWarrior What the hell are the people with 12mil SP in Missiles and minimal skills in gunnery gonna do? Will we be forced to go gunnery? If all 4 Tier 3 BS are going to be Turret Boats... Thats basically forcing the missile users/lovers to go Gunnery? Sounds a Bit Unfair tbh. I suppose we could stick to the raven/scorp/phoon .. But does that mean we can't have a go at Tier 3 BS? Yes we 'can' fly them, but I mean effectively. Im not whining(well suppose theres a bit of whining -.- ) , but it just seems a little unfair. How about train the skills? How large rails users tha had to train for mega so they could use them on ship that could make good use of them? I think you find us kinda immue to the "oh noes I have to train new skills people". You don't have to use the damm ship... wtf? You have Large Hybrid Spec already done, so you can use your t2 guns on your gallente railboat.. where as the caldari missile users will have to retrain gunnery.. can take about 3 months or so. ( support V etc ) Which the Minimatar/Gallente/Amarr already have trained because there gun boats.. If Amarr T3 Was made a missile boat, dont you think people would be angry at it? I think they would. I do? You seen my skill list have you? Sorry to disapoint you but i have yet to do large hybrids tech 2 yet... You mean you never trained any gunnery skills? none for the gun based ships we already have? Tough nuggies...don't want to use named tier 1 guns on the ship to test it out see if you like it? again tough... There is no word one or another what direction the other tier 3s are going to be...it may include different directions for the skill trees it may not... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Octavio Santillian	Posted - 2006.05.01 20:47:00 - [100] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... it is a good day to be a Caldari. At least, more Caldari pirates will be flying "Made in Caldari" ships instead of Minmatar trash. Speaking of Minmatar trash, I'll be needing a Vaga soon, you know where I can get one? ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
DeathWarrior	Posted - 2006.05.01 20:55:00 - [101] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: DeathWarrior Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: DeathWarrior What the hell are the people with 12mil SP in Missiles and minimal skills in gunnery gonna do? Will we be forced to go gunnery? If all 4 Tier 3 BS are going to be Turret Boats... Thats basically forcing the missile users/lovers to go Gunnery? Sounds a Bit Unfair tbh. I suppose we could stick to the raven/scorp/phoon .. But does that mean we can't have a go at Tier 3 BS? Yes we 'can' fly them, but I mean effectively. Im not whining(well suppose theres a bit of whining -.- ) , but it just seems a little unfair. How about train the skills? How large rails users tha had to train for mega so they could use them on ship that could make good use of them? I think you find us kinda immue to the "oh noes I have to train new skills people". You don't have to use the damm ship... wtf? You have Large Hybrid Spec already done, so you can use your t2 guns on your gallente railboat.. where as the caldari missile users will have to retrain gunnery.. can take about 3 months or so. ( support V etc ) Which the Minimatar/Gallente/Amarr already have trained because there gun boats.. If Amarr T3 Was made a missile boat, dont you think people would be angry at it? I think they would. I do? You seen my skill list have you? Sorry to disapoint you but i have yet to do large hybrids tech 2 yet... You mean you never trained any gunnery skills? none for the gun based ships we already have? Tough nuggies...don't want to use named tier 1 guns on the ship to test it out see if you like it? again tough... There is no word one or another what direction the other tier 3s are going to be...it may include different directions for the skill trees it may not... By saying 'you' I wasn't directing it at you, I meant in general. Those megathron pilots already have there t2 hybrids trained up. Originally by: Tuxford I once tried to kick my brother when I had my pants around my ankle. Probably not my brightest moments.
4 LOM	Posted - 2006.05.01 22:10:00 - [102] From what i can see, if the teir3 is railboat (as stated) or if it turns into a missile boat either way there will be countless threads of people complaining. We should all just shut up and let ccp do there work, there is no way to make everyone happy with this ship and the more one side whines the more the other will. its a waste of forum space. Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.02 05:57:00 - [103] Originally by: Octavio Santillian Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... it is a good day to be a Caldari. At least, more Caldari pirates will be flying "Made in Caldari" ships instead of Minmatar trash. Speaking of Minmatar trash, I'll be needing a Vaga soon, you know where I can get one? Akonoinen. ---------------- May 1st - We love Khatred day. RecruitMe@NOINT!
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.05.02 06:36:00 - [104] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/04/2006 15:36:58 Originally by: J'val Iktar Originally by: Testy Mctest Your race uses both missiles and rails. You have a rail frig. You have a rail cruiser. You have a T2 rail frig. You have a T2 rail cruiser. You have a BC that uses missiles OR rails. See the pattern? You have no BS that uses rails. But soon you will. I see the pattern and it is ships with near split hardpoints between rails and missles. Merlin => 2r/2m Moa => 4r/2m Ferox => 5r/5m Scorpian => 4r/4m Raven => 4r/6m The tier3 rail battleship should have 6r/4m. Anything else would be going against the Caldari pattern of split rail/missle slots. Think ill prefer 6 launchers to 6 turrets and stick with the Raven. What would be the point of training all those hybrid skills just to be able to do instant damage? Minmatar ships are best as snipers anyway... Then you never have flown a Railathron eh? Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.05.02 13:33:00 - [105] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/05/2006 13:54:54 "6 turret 4 launcher, 5% optimal 5% shield hp / level is the most reasonable configuration. But what do I know :p" ... seeing how Dominix with its 6 turrets _and_ damage bonus is widely considered "useless in fleets when you can have Megathron instead" ... a ship with 6 turrets and _no_ damage bonus... just meh :/ oh, and 5% optimal bonus rather than 10% means that turret-for-turret, you can do more damage over the same range with ship that has 5% damage bonus instead, as far as tech.1 ammo is concerned. And for tech.2 ammo you get enough range with regular turrets there's no point in optimal bonus at all. (7 * 1.25 = 8.75 turrets worth of damage. so it's not like 7 regular guns is going to make it obsolete)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.02 14:06:00 - [106] 7 turrets, 50% optimal, 25% shield resistance. mega gets 25% more damage, caldari one gets 50% more range.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.02 14:11:00 - [107] Originally by: Kamikaaazi i think 8 turrets, 10% optimal, 5% damage would be fine. If i get a ship like that, then i might just forget all the other ****ty ships that caldari has. no way in hell is it getting 8 turrets. like, ever.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.05.02 14:11:00 - [108] i think 8 turrets, 10% optimal, 5% damage would be fine. If i get a ship like that, then i might just forget all the other ****ty ships that caldari has.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.05.02 14:16:00 - [109] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kamikaaazi i think 8 turrets, 10% optimal, 5% damage would be fine. If i get a ship like that, then i might just forget all the other ****ty ships that caldari has. no way in hell is it getting 8 turrets. like, ever. whine
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.02 14:17:00 - [110] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kamikaaazi i think 8 turrets, 10% optimal, 5% damage would be fine. If i get a ship like that, then i might just forget all the other ****ty ships that caldari has. no way in hell is it getting 8 turrets. like, ever. whine no, realism
Reku Haag	Posted - 2006.05.02 14:23:00 - [111] 7/7/4 6 turret / 4 missile 10% optimal, 5% shield resist Seems to fit with Caldari trends, nice but not too powerful. As a Gallente outcast who flies Caldari it sounds good to me.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.05.02 15:06:00 - [112] "7/7/4 6 turret / 4 missile 10% optimal, 5% shield resist Seems to fit with Caldari trends, nice but not too powerful." "not too powerful" is putting it mildly. 6x 425mm railgun with all relevant skills maxed and triple tech.2 damage mods means 345 dps of raw damage. In comparison, Dominix with the same setup is doing 430 dps, and Megathron 502. Even Tempest, arguably weakest in the dps department, does ~423 dps, and it strong point is opening damage from first couple of salvos, anyway. Which is something railguns are lacking. (and no, one launcher over the fleet fight distances does nothing to address this gap)
Reku Haag	Posted - 2006.05.02 15:16:00 - [113] Originally by: j0sephine "7/7/4 6 turret / 4 missile 10% optimal, 5% shield resist Seems to fit with Caldari trends, nice but not too powerful." "not too powerful" is putting it mildly. 6x 425mm railgun with all relevant skills maxed and triple tech.2 damage mods means 345 dps of raw damage. In comparison, Dominix with the same setup is doing 430 dps, and Megathron 502. Even Tempest, arguably weakest in the dps department, does ~423 dps, and it strong point is opening damage from first couple of salvos, anyway. Which is something railguns are lacking. (and no, one launcher over the fleet fight distances does nothing to address this gap) Well I was just throwing out a suggestion that was overly nerfed since the other suggestions seemed to be the opposite. So using it as a starting point and taking your maths into account how about this: 8/7/4 7 turret / 4 missile same bonuses I know that 1 extra turret only adds about 17% dps so that would be 402.5 (assuming ur 345 is correct). Howver with the optimal bonus it is possible to use more powerful ammo in long range engagements. Take that as a starting point and improve it, Im sure you can come up with something good but not overpowered. As for the missile slots, theyre just to maintain Caldari design trends. My prefered guns are rails and I like to fly Caldari so it would be nice to see some good but reallistic ideas for this type of ship. I am currently looking at training for Harpy and maybe Eagle, if CCP make a decent rail BS maybe that will be another nice option for me.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.05.02 15:27:00 - [114] "So using it as a starting point and taking your maths into account how about this: 8/7/4 7 turret / 4 missile same bonuses" Funnily enough, if you add one low slot to it so it's 8/7/5... that's dead-on the early draft for this ship in the game database (well, except the bonus part which we have no way to tell) I think it'd be very reasonable this way. It's still a bit less damage than fully trained Dominix (7 turrets vs. 7.5) but the gap is no longer so extreme, and the optimal bonus does help a bit here. At the same time Megathron still gest to keep the spot as most damaging hybrid ship, even when using the rails... which is not a bad thing either, as again the optimal bonus and the difference in slot layout helps to set these two apart enough to make room for both ^^;
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.05.02 15:27:00 - [115] Here's the deal with the Caldari ship. If you take it's bonuses and add them to the amount of turrets it has, it must end up lower than 8.75 (effective turrets) if it is to have an optimal range bonus (which is a given). The problem with this is that Megathrons, Apocs, Geddons, and Tempests push a range that is adequate with T2 ammo. The invention of Spike (and it's siblings) has rendered T1 ammo and equipment not only obsolete, but also seriously damaged turret tweaking. As it stands now, a tier 3 Caldari BShip with 8 turrets, +10% optimal and no damage bonus will not be pushing enough damage (those extra 7% the Megathron is able to perform does all the difference). The reason is that the range and grade-of-ammo cannot be modulated because there is only one single ammo type that is viable - Spike L. However, if CCP does the right thing and removes (meaning disables) T2 ammo in wait for a better alternative, the situation with a 8-turret +10% optimal and ... say +5% shield resist Caldari ship would be damnably good - perhaps too good. The +5% resist bonus easily outweighs the 7% damage advantage of the Megathron - not to mention that ammo can be chosen that the tier 3 Caldari is capable of seriously outdamaging the Megathron at any given range! No, I think that a +10% optimal range bonus and +5% shield resist bonus on a 7-turret battleship is optimal considering that if you choose two grades more damaging ammo for the Caldari ship, you'll out-damage the Megathron. It won't be by a lot, but that little difference is weighed up by the second bonus - out-tank the Megathron by light-years. P.S. I do hope that the Gallente tier 3 will stay true to Gallente philosophy and NOT be a fleet-slugger. Short-ranged (sensor dampener) EWar with dps between Dominix and Megathron (not counting drones), anyone? New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Reku Haag	Posted - 2006.05.02 15:41:00 - [116] Originally by: j0sephine "So using it as a starting point and taking your maths into account how about this: 8/7/4 7 turret / 4 missile same bonuses" Funnily enough, if you add one low slot to it so it's 8/7/5... that's dead-on the early draft for this ship in the game database (well, except the bonus part which we have no way to tell) I think it'd be very reasonable this way. It's still a bit less damage than fully trained Dominix (7 turrets vs. 7.5) but the gap is no longer so extreme, and the optimal bonus does help a bit here. At the same time Megathron still gest to keep the spot as most damaging hybrid ship, even when using the rails... which is not a bad thing either, as again the optimal bonus and the difference in slot layout helps to set these two apart enough to make room for both ^^; Sorry I didnt know there was anything about it in the item database, I will go look :) Thanks to yourself and Ithildin for your good posts, very informative and well thought out.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.05.02 15:50:00 - [117] "Sorry I didnt know there was anything about it in the item database, I will go look :)" They've been mentioned in few earlier threads i think, but you can see the details in jide's database ... see in the ships/battleships folder, and near the bottom there's "tier 3 <race>" entries ^^
Crellion	Posted - 2006.05.02 18:06:00 - [118] 1) Characters with no gunnery trained are missle spammers and not Caldari. Balance addresses race issues not fetich sub-group issues. 2) Caldari gunboats have gallente pg and caldari cpu (almost and almost) to fit guns (the grid) and shield tank (the cpu) 3) Tuxfords posts are simple, to the point and authoriative (didnt know devs actually understood the game) so read them and stop posting. 4) If you like missles to be the top weapon and rails the secondary weapon then start a huge campaign of stupidity asking for Kestrel to switch places with Merlin, Caracal with Moa, Cerb with Eagle, etc etc etc In the meantime leave the tier 3 BS alone. Despite flying Caldari ships a lot myself I tend to agree when I read threads like this that Caldari chars are mainly spoilt brats that have gone straight for missles skills and want to be uber without ever having to train anything else... well boohoo, rly. You must be peeps who started playing less than a year ago. If not, given that missle skills were like 1 mill sp rly (the useful ones) before that what else have you trained for you not to have trained your race's main weapon??? Are you all l33t miners and traders that pvp with missle skills alone? Give us all a break and grow up. Or set your tier 3 BS with 3 launchers and 5 nos and good luck to you... lol
B0rn2KiLL	Posted - 2006.05.02 22:30:00 - [119] Edited by: B0rn2KiLL on 02/05/2006 22:30:24 sometimes i just wish whiners were flies, and i was a giant rolled up newspaper.. clue: this is one of those times. --- new sig, Hijack it and ill eat u. *Imaran hands B0rn2KiLL a fork - Come get some!11

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