You will see no difference in your mining and refining, all this change will do is give up to 20% more reward for miners who take greater risks.

We arnt going to tax away that 20% because nobody would bother mining if we do. Our tax system is more advanced than that and we value getting cheaper ships to pvp with over taxing a miner.

as for why reward the risk takers, why wouldnt you? With no reward for taking on the higher risk why would you leave high sec?

There is nothing to gain from refining in null that high sec doesnt offer right now.

We are already earning enough to pay our sov bills and offer 200% SRP on peacetime pvp ships. Do you honestly think we need to tax miners?

Most of us run level 4s in high sec. Belt ratting is terrible isk, your better off mining ice.

Just because we are rich does not mean we should ignore very real issues. Mining and refining are not in a good way, hence this fix.

Equally our alliance level income is not only based in nullsec.

It finally gives miners are reason to want to leave high sec and it gives alliances in null a reason to want to have them. They are an asset now.

I agree with him, the belts should be hidden or at the ery least harder to find with the d-scan. That still does not change the fact that this change has made miners an asset we now want.

Because not only do WH dwellers risk less but we also would have the issue of a lowsec POS parked next door to highsec offering the same refine rate as a null station. Nobody would use the null station in that situation as you get the same refine rate in a lowsec pos for less risk, effort and cost.

The change, as proposed, actually provides this "de-clustering" as you've described by making it vastly more cost-efficient to jump ore out of Jita into nullsec, where it can be refined at a bonus, and exporting minerals back to highsec.

it's ~65b to build one from scratch and ~43b to upgrade an egg to a T3 refinery

Its shows the risk we all take when we set up in 0.0.

This is why these stations are going to be the best for refining, they face the most risk, they cost the most and they take the most effort to defend.

So basically, all of the people who wants to do something more interesting with the ores they mine will be shafted bigtime by this change.. Mine, sell, mine, sell... Don't think, don't dream, just mine, sell.. don't bother with production, don't bother with refining, just mine, sell, mine, sell... Gee.. way to make S&I more interesting... You go CCP...

did you know there is a reason people currently use modules to compress minerals ? it has to do something with m-¦

Having better refining yields in null sec than high sec destroys competition and forces serious industrialists to join null sec alliances in order to maintain their profit margin .
Also worst refining yields will hurt mission running income , will hurt salvaging corporations and will generate less tritanium etc tritanium --->ships will become more expensive .
I dont really know whats the ratio mining asteroids for tritanium vs refining loot for tritanium so i dont really know where the market will balance .

simply not true. mods come from jita. ever ship that is not a battlecruiser or bigger comes from jita. battleships and battlecruisers sometimes are made locally. with minerals from jita.

lots of traders ? yes. lots of industrialists ? nope. in the few cases where it actually happens it's for jita. exceptions are caps, supercaps and a few battlecruisers and battleships. maybe some production from T2 BPOs. but that's rare

you forgot the part where the alts are doing industry in Highsec.

large scale moon mining operations ? the moon goo is send to jita and sold. in some cases it's sold to the member corps or individual players. those then do reactions. on anonymous alts in lowsec. btw: did you know that reactions are entirely different from other industrial stuff ? mainly because they don't require sov, don't require outposts, don't require slots. all you need is an anonymous pos in lowsec.

caps and supercaps are the exceptions i acknowledge, just like some other edge cases. but the overwhelming majority of all building is happening in highsec. i have interviewed maybe 30 or 40 recruits for my corp. not a single one of these guys has ever even asked about doing industry in nullsec. many of them have done industry. in anonymous highsec corps.

Sov confers a fuel bonus to towers, however, so if you have access to sov nullsec, you'd be a fool to run reactions anywhere else. Hell, we have some renters in Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere that rent specifically to get access to moons to run towers on at a fuel discount.

dude, you are confusing as hell:



my whole argument is based on that statement of yours about serious industry happening in nullsec

Yes, but null gets that 20% bonus regardless of where the ore/ice originates from.

Though there is an increased incentive to mine in null, that same time spent mining can also be spent instead in hauling compressed high-sec ore/ice for the same 20% bonus in null refineries.

So the status quo and incentive on actually utilising null resources, is still mitigated by that same time instead being spent in hauling from high-sec, as was the case before the change.

Whereas before that activity involved hauling compressed guns for reprocessing into minerals in null, the same activity now continues instead as hauling compressed ice/ore with an additional profit due to the refining rates that exceeds that which was possible with gun compression hauling.

Subsequently it also becomes possible for null to manufacture that direct increased refining yield of compressed ice/ore from high-sec into products, which can then be compressed and re-shipped back to high-sec markets for sale at a margin that high-sec manufacturing cannot feasibly match due to high-sec not being able to compete with the ice/ore refine yield in minerals garnered by null from the compressed ice/ore they imported from high in the first place.

What actual mining activity this might incentivise in null, would be for the ore types that are not available in high, which again, due to the refining change, can be added to the base minerals garnered efficiently from refining of imported high-sec compressed ice/ore, manufactured, compressed, and re-shipped to high-sec again for a margin that cannot be met by high-sec not only due to their local reduced refinery rates, but also due to their inability to access "cheap" rarer ores in high-sec, and even if they could, they could only refine them at a lower efficiency.

Furthermore, due to the reprocessing nerf, null actually becomes even more dependant on minerals acquired through other means. Though this to a small degree incentivises mining in null for those minerals instead, as I demonstrated above, they can and will still be aquired from high-sec instead.

Am I correct in any of this?

So though it incentives null mining (of rare ores) to a small degree, the real profit and efficiency is still in importing compressed high-sec ice/ore (whereas before it was compressed guns) refining that at an increased efficiency, manufacturing it, and then re-selling product in high-sec at a margin that high-sec manufacturers cannot match due to their own native lower refinement rates.

I don't think this is necessarily "bad" for high-sec, but I think the incentive for null actually finally utilising its own domestic resources to the full is a bit overstated in many interpretations of this change. The best efficiency and profit, to my understanding, is still in importing high-sec ice/ore, which infact is now more efficient in mineral yield than gun compression ever was, not in mining domestically in null.

I don't think we will really see a substantial degree of null utilising its own ore resources as a result.

If compressing high-sec ice/ore was restricted, yes, that would certainly massively incentivise domestic mining in null, but that is not the proposed change.

Alts of null-dwellers can continue to mine in the safety of high-sec, compress and haul their ice/ore to null, get an increased efficiency yield in minerals, manufacture, and sell back to high-sec. At every stage of this process the profits accumulate above and beyond what was the case today, and it doesn't even require you to mine in null instead.

Did someone mention botting in nullsec?

after reading 40 pages i got tired and skipped ahead to page 70

i would like to point out that this might affect the current market Hubs

if people are buying compressed ore locally and most of industry has moved to null
then will it not stand to reason that people will stop going to jita amarr dodixie rens and save on JF fuel and just buy from the nearest low sec or null sec market hub instead?

Wrong. The only thing that stops us is the fact that it is cheaper to just import everything from jita.

How is that different with stations of specific corporations?
At least now is becomes practical to mine in systems where before logistics would not allow for it.

Get rid of that boilerplate in your head and look at the bugger picture instead of i loose this or that. You get many opportunities too, that can more then offset any loss you mention.

Said that, I do agree that the current system of confiscating part of the refined ore as payment is a bad one. Better would be simply to may a small ISK fee like you do for other services.

Do you know what you are emotionally asking for?

Suppose your wish comes true. Then you are suddenly required to train all to level 5 to get the max. Where you now likely have nothing trained past level 4. Do not shoot yourself in the foot, just because you feel sorry for your existing now seemingly 'unused' SP. Put away the emotion of loss and start being rational.

And again, only one character in a corporation needs really those skills, do you think new players refine their own ore? You just make thinks more complicated then they need to be and force everyone that want to use that POS structure to train even more then they have now. It is not helping the new guy and not helping the old guy...it is not helping anyone!

I got the point, but you both missed it. Your reasoning is pilot vs pilot as if corporation doesn't even matter! How obvious it might seem to you, it is still wrong to look at it that way.Look at it on the corp level.

Requiring max skills to get max result from a POS (corporation) structure means the transition to this new system will be all the harder as few can get the yields they are used to. You also forget that POS structures are vulnerable to PVP, require faction standing, and fuel.

Just like now a well trained toon will do the refining for his corp buddies, so will the POS do it for them after the change. The difference is you do not have to wait for the other guy to be around.

There's currently a mismatch bewteen mineral quantities of a block compared to those of the ore used to create them. This is due to the new quantities being calculated from current mineral qties of the block, then rounding up that number (once).
Refining the base ore, however, will result in higher mineral quantities, as each single batch gets rounded up. I stated that earlier in this thread. So the numbers possibly will vary a bit (if ccp decides to adjust block mineral qties)
Using quantities of ore batches will add for each single block of basic Pyroxeres:

Tritanium: 489.5
Pyerite: 265.5
Mexallon: 117
Nocxium: 218.5

(pyroxeres units of a block are not a full multiple of 100, which would be a batch)
With the prices in the post you made a block's value changes

50 % base yield station:
2,830,756.16 to 3,001,786.96

V0DF-2:
3,385,959.72 to 3,590,535.23 (given the extra yield of 19.61 %)

Jumping 4.394 blocks will add nearly 150 million more ISK, still before travel cost.

They're not taking away your income earning potential though. Looting your missions instead of blitzing through them earns you less money even today. So if after the change you go do another mission, instead of wasting time looting and salvaging, your income level will increase. The only way for it to decrease with this change is for you to intentionally choose to continue run your missions inefficiently. You can do that if that's the way you like to play the game, but then you're doing it for enjoyment and not mainly as an income to fund other activities, so it shouldn't matter much anyway.

I'm not telling you to like the change, but in the overall scheme of gameplay effects created by this change your complaint carries little to no weight. No activity is taken away from you and just a slight alteration in the way you do the same activity will only increase your income.