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Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lets take a look into the wonderful world of the EVE-Online Economy. It is currently for the most part save some NPC seeded items(mainly skillbooks) player run. So how do players run it? Simple! They build and sell. Other players turn around and buy then blow **** up. this creates supply and demand.
I tell this story below after I bought 15B tritanium and another 8B pyrite. Not isk value but units of.
Supply
Supply is this wonderful thing called trit. I know some people snort it but lets face it, its used for production in greater quantities(exponentially) then anything else. I have read most of the ongoing threads about mining and refining, but I feel as though one massive item was overlooked.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:With the max reprocessing rate for any item that is not ore or ice dropping to 55%(with Scrapmetal Processing trained at 5), we needed to find other ways to favor compression or else null-security industry would simply stop functioning.
STOP!!!!! Did anyone read the first part of that sentence, or just skim to the end. There was two key things addressed here. Were going to ignore changes to compression because that is more of a long distance demand thing then a supply. They are reducing the amount of minerals received from refining loot from NPC drops. So lets think about this... Just how many NPCs are killed in EVE in a day. Then lets think about how much of that loot thanks to Mobile Tractor Units, MTUs, is actually refined. Well assume for a minute everyone does as I do, meta 4 is instantly in the station container labeled "For The Market." So what about the rest? Meta 1-2 go into the "To Be Refined" can. Meta 3 is split into whats worth listing and whats not.
So what happens when you cut the mineral value of something you refined for minerals? Well there is a set market price you and I are going to pay for meta 1-4 items. Its dictated by supply and demand. So were going to see a drop in the meta items prices because if you half the mineral value of an item, it still has a market price. Unfortunately for EVE if that mineral price is not greater then market price its going to be sold as an item instead of minerals. We all love ISK after all.
The markets can then see the amount of titanium and pyrite, the predominant minerals from refining, reduced significantly. While sure, not all minerals come from refining. Infact per miner vs per ratter I am willing to stick isk a miner will see in a given day more minerals then a ratter. The number of ratters far outnumbers then number of miners.
Where am I going with this, hopefully it dawned on you by now. We are going to have a significant amount of tritanium and pyrite removed from the supply category. If we remove the supply of something, it becomes more valuable. Unfortunately only CCP has the hard numbers on just how much trit comes from refining of items over refining of ore.
So changes to compression compound this. In highsec now only a corp who has standings to drop a tower can compress, which face it is not most mining corps. Sure corp sale prices will go through the roof as people buy them to drop tower to compress with and hand back to their alts. Maybe even refine at since the POS mods dont take tax and have a 52%(high sec pos mod) refinery with a 10 second cycle time. With the compressed minerals being primarily generated in lowsec and even more so in null sec, the price of minerals will go up even further as the only effective way to supply major 0.0 alliances the minerals they need is divert it from going into highsec and out into 0.0.. Speaking as a nullsec industrialist, there is never enough trit around. Its always being imported. The supply in highsec will begin to dwindle even further. Sure will there be a price breaking point for trit that people send it to empire over compress and ship to null? ABSOLUTELY.
TLDR long story short two more paragraphs. Lets look at history of EVE when the tech scandle broke, for those of you who dont know what I am talking about its this:
Google: EVE Online's POS Exploit Exposed
GM Grimmi wrote:At the time we discovered the exploit in early December, there were 232 reactors running in the bugged state. Those were installed at 178 POS complexes owned by seven corporations. The scale of the operations differed quite a bit, with one corporation running 81 bugged reactors and another with 3 reactors active.
So what happened? People were making high end moon goo out of nothing. CCP removed a decent sized chunk of the market supply permanently and the prices skyrocketed to well over 4x in the end. Why do I bring it up, well read the conclusion.
Summing all of this up is the fact that trit sits at 5ish isk a unit because of the supply vs the demand. Were about to lose a chunk of the supply without a change in demand. If anything HERO Coalition's mindbogglingly large amount of T1 losses is going to increase demand as they get out of frigates and into cruiser/battleships. So this change in ratio will see low end materials coming out of NPC loot going through the roof. I expect to see trit at 10 or more isk a unit. Goons if you read this and do hulkageddon again, its ******* game over for the economy. You will literally nuke it from orbit to quote a good movie.
I hope someone proves me wrong because, I dont want to pay 2-3x as much for a ship
EDIT** If you find this helpful for the time invested to do an essay on this, send me some trit instead of isk, it'll be worth more when the expansion hits in a month or two. |

Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
reserved |

Lim Yo Hwan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bitcoin Tritanium To the moon!!! Göù(-¦0-¦)Gö¢ |

Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2299
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 23:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
I could be wrong, but I'd be guessing that currently, 2% of Trit supply is reprocessed rat drops, 75% highsec miners, and 23% miners in other space.
If supply drops 2%, I can see that causing a price change, but not a big one.
Good luck with your speculation, I will remain deeply invested in Rattlesnakes instead. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |

Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
I dunno Sabriz, NPC drops if you look at the piles of trit in mining systems vs ratting systems is pretty even and I'd say there is more in ratting then mining because the ratters build ammo and things that ratters just dont need. I also live in 0.0 and using 1 mining toon, my guys who rat and get the loot can outdo me in lowend minerals so much so I buy from them and mostly get highends. I do strip the belts clean. |

Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
188
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 00:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mission drops have been almost worthless since they got nerfed two or three times in the last couple of years. Taking tips from Block? I don't think it worked out for him either.
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:I could be wrong, but I'd be guessing that currently, 2% of Trit supply is reprocessed rat drops, 75% highsec miners, and 23% miners in other space.
If supply drops 2%, I can see that causing a price change, but not a big one.
Good luck with your speculation, I will remain deeply invested in Rattlesnakes instead.
Should've dumped the rattlers at 480 :p. .
|

Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2299
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 00:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kamikazie wrote:I dunno Sabriz, NPC drops if you look at the piles of trit in mining systems vs ratting systems is pretty even and I'd say there is more in ratting then mining because the ratters build ammo and things that ratters just dont need. I also live in 0.0 and using 1 mining toon, my guys who rat and get the loot can outdo me in lowend minerals so much so I buy from them and mostly get highends. I do strip the belts clean.
The amount of trit vomited into the economy by the botted and the ISOboxed fleets (and the rare actual multiplayer fleet) in highsec is tremendous, however. We are talking over a trillion units a month. Ratters (even the rare breed that scoops every single thing with an MTU) are nothing next to that.
Nullsec mining, by design, is somewhat low on the Trit/Pyerite/Mex drops even after the recent changes. CCP's design intention is that nullsec is a net exporter of Morphite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Nocxicum and Isogen and a net importer of the others.
Now in a solidly locked down 0.0 system, an organised group might get a fair bit of reprocessable loot by dropping and bookmarking MTUs in each anomoly, then having one person come around once per hour in an Iteron scooping all of them. But that would be several ratters feeding one reprocessing alt. And they aren't getting anywhere near the volumes of minerals highsec vomits out. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |

Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2299
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 00:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Mission drops have been almost worthless since they got nerfed two or three times in the last couple of years. Taking tips from Block? I don't think it worked out for him either. Sabriz Adoudel wrote:I could be wrong, but I'd be guessing that currently, 2% of Trit supply is reprocessed rat drops, 75% highsec miners, and 23% miners in other space.
If supply drops 2%, I can see that causing a price change, but not a big one.
Good luck with your speculation, I will remain deeply invested in Rattlesnakes instead. Should've dumped the rattlers at 480 :p.
Mine are BPCs (so 140m less than hulls) but I'm willing to hold them longer. I see no way they are likely to fall below the current rate and plenty of potential to rise. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |

Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 01:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
lets stay on topic? |

Anders Madeveda
Sturmgrenadier Inc
13
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Not sure how your analysis holds up when you consider that they are increasing the amount of minerals you receive when you reprocess. The net effect will be zero or somewhere close to it. |
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Volar Kang
Aliastra Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 02:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think there is some merit in what the OP says. My experience in null was that most people who need minerals rat rather than mine. Ratting gives you money + loot to refine for minerals and ratting in null was much more profitable than mining. Plus with ratting you have a chance at a good drop now and then that could be worth hundreds of millions. Not saying it will be a big increase but when it goes live I would bet we see some upward movement in price. At the very least due to peoples inability to read the actual change log and just freak out.
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Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Anders Madeveda wrote:Not sure how your analysis holds up when you consider that they are increasing the amount of minerals you receive when you reprocess. The net effect will be zero or somewhere close to it.
You mean like this? Am I the only one who read this devblog carefully?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:A character that has perfect skills/standings who reprocesses at a 50% station with all skills maxed but without the 4% implant will have 2.8% less reprocessed minerals than currently.
Yes I will give you 0.0 fully upgraded minmatar outposts which will cost for 3 levels of upgrade in the area of 40B will in fact have a better yield. However, consider most mining is done in highsec so that rules this out and back into the 2.8%less category.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:someone with perfect skills, implant and standings refining at a fully upgraded Minmatar outpost will receive 14.4% more reprocessed minerals than currently
Bottom line is not all the miners will have all lvl 5 skills. Whereas before you could get 100% if you had refining 5 and refining efficiency 5 and no ore skills. Now you need them all which is several months alone just for the ore spec skills. Consider the amount of trit being consumed in EVE and then remove 5% for most people having no standings to the NPC corp and they take a tax. Then imagine and I am being generous that the miners have refining 5 and eff 5 but ore skills lvl 4, you only get 71% of your ore which is 4.2% less then maxed add the two together, that is a big hit with a tax at 66%. Sure there is more minerals per refine and the refines are less ore per, but still will not offset the nerf to refining. |

Felicity Love
Margaret Thatcher's Miners
1605
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 02:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
...cracks the whip so the peons keep busy, and looks forward to the summer "goldrush" of the crazy market scams and barely concealed manipulation stunts that these changes will bring. 
... and I was just saying the other day, "Damn, I miss Soundwave"....
|

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2921
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 02:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
that 4% implant is 300 million or so.
It's not exactly a huge roadblock.
And not all miners need to be able to refine. That's what corporations are for.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZSNGLaxi1A-Q818nApcJ2kNJOfnJmhcAcYn-mulzEU/edit?usp=sharing may be of interest so you can see how skills and implants affect things.
And remember, there's no /need/ for miners to refine. They can sell the ore directly, if they don't have the skills or friends to refine it at a level that's acceptable. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |

Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2299
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 03:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:that 4% implant is 300 million or so.
It's not exactly a huge roadblock.
What is actually required for it to enter the economy?
If I knew the implant's name I'd research it, but is it an LP item? Rare drop? Both? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |

Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 03:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:that 4% implant is 300 million or so.
It's not exactly a huge roadblock. What is actually required for it to enter the economy? If I knew the implant's name I'd research it, but is it an LP item? Rare drop? Both?
Zainou 'Beancounter' Refining RX-804 |

mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3145
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 05:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:I think there is some merit in what the OP says. My experience in null was that most people who need minerals rat rather than mine. Ratting gives you money + loot to refine for minerals and ratting in null was much more profitable than mining. Plus with ratting you have a chance at a good drop now and then that could be worth hundreds of millions. Not saying it will be a big increase but when it goes live I would bet we see some upward movement in price. At the very least due to peoples inability to read the actual change log and just freak out.
People who need minerals in nullsec import them in compressed form so as to take advantage of the highsec mining population hundreds of times larger than anything they might have locally. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |

Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2305
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 05:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kamikazie wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:that 4% implant is 300 million or so.
It's not exactly a huge roadblock. What is actually required for it to enter the economy? If I knew the implant's name I'd research it, but is it an LP item? Rare drop? Both? Zainou 'Beancounter' Refining RX-804
Thanks, so its production cost is 30m ISK + 80k LP. That kinda kills off my interest in speculating in that implant. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |

Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2676
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 08:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
There might be a bit of a bump in mineral prices, but I doubt it will be spectacular. You did miss something though, but I'll leave it to you to wonder what, cos I'm mean.
The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |

Kamikazie
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:There might be a bit of a bump in mineral prices, but I doubt it will be spectacular. You did miss something though, but I'll leave it to you to wonder what, cos I'm mean.
Some stuff was left out on prupose.
Bottom line, trit is for sure not going to go down unless they introduce changes to mining beyond the batch sizes and mineral yields. |
|

Emily Spankratchet
Pragmatics
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
There may well be a brief increase in mineral supply as people refine and reprocess stuff to avoid refining losses before the changes are implemented.
I recently returned to the game after a five year break and have discovered that I have ~15-20 billion of assorted rat drops scattered throughout the galaxy. I suspect I will be refining a large proportion of that and selling the stuff that will actually make money. Of course, that's a larger proportion by volume than by value - I have yet to work out the ISK value of the minerals that will come out of this process.
I guess a lot of people will do the same once the date of the change is known. |

Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2677
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kamikazie wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:There might be a bit of a bump in mineral prices, but I doubt it will be spectacular. You did miss something though, but I'll leave it to you to wonder what, cos I'm mean. Some stuff was left out on prupose. Bottom line, trit is for sure not going to go down unless they introduce changes to mining beyond the batch sizes and mineral yields. I doubt it will go down, but then I doubt it will go up much. It might prior to the change due to speculation and hoarding, but after the change everything will be about the same. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
4450
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 14:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Personally, I'm looking forward to more ore in compressed form moving around highsec in freighters. See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did. |

mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3150
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 14:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote:Personally, I'm looking forward to more ore in compressed form moving around highsec in freighters.
This is the best and most true post you have ever made on these fine forums. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2932
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 17:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Erotica 1 wrote:Personally, I'm looking forward to more ore in compressed form moving around highsec in freighters. This is the best and most true post you have ever made on these fine forums.
Freighter full of compressed glazed hedbergite please.... Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |

Otto Runkter
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 00:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
I strongly suspect it will affect the more expensive minerals more than the cheapies. It doesn't take long to mine tremendous quantities of trit. Recyclers may out number miners, but takes a LOT of people recycling to equal what one guy can mine in a mack in an hour- and there's a LOT of macks out there mining scordite and veldspar in high sec. I wonder if you don't realize just how many miners there are in high sec. And in many systems all they have to mine is scordite and veldspar. They still strip them. We're talking many many belts, many many systems every day. The percentage of minerals used in high sec that come from reprocessing vs. mining has got to be much higher in noxium and megacyte than the cheapest minerals. Obviously a lot larger raw quantity of trit comes from reprocessing (and a lot more is needed as well), but it's a drop in the ocean compared to trit mined versus the rarer minerals that are maybe more of a drop in a Solo cup. OK, that's a bad analogy, I'm sure both are more than a drop, but you get the idea.
Due to the OCD psyche of miners combined with the fact that, with enough effort, ore yields can be slightly higher (theoretically significantly higher in upgraded null stations) than they are now I don't think trit prices will skyrocket. Even an increase of 1 ISK is, percentage-wise, a pretty huge gain. 950 nox is much more realistic than 10 trit (or even 7 trit for that matter). Personally, I think trit is more likely to stay the same or slightly decrease than it is to go up, as even a slight ore yield gain may be able to offset the recycling loss. Or will there be enough ore refined in null for those potentially large yield gains to come into play?
A big question is what percentage of minerals go into capital and supercapital production (or large battleship operations in null for that matter). If it's high then we probably will see some level 3 stations where I think they get ore yields like 115%-120% compared to what they are now, so that could offset A LOT of lost repossessed mod minerals. OR, and this is a cool possibility, if any group started LARGE scale ore refinement in null to re-import back into high sec. It would be pretty awesome to see a convoy of 80 freighters with a heavy carrier escort (also full of compressed ore or minerals) moving through null and back. If you could turn profits of even 15% on something that's as scalable as ore and minerals, although still maybe unlikely for someone to do, it could be possible. It's probably one of the most scalable business a multi-trillionaire could get into. Maybe takes too many people/accounts to get enough volume to make it worth the effort though, I really don't know.
One unknown factor, as in real life, is besides what effect this actually has, is what effect is it perceived to have? Whether in EVE or in the stock market knowing when to sell is often harder than picking winners. The run up to this change, that will be even more important, and even harder to predict. Even if I'm right we could see mineral prices shoot up if everyone agrees with you, regardless of who's right. If that happens, whatever you do, don't be afraid to sell. I hope it works for you (well... not really; I don't really want higher mineral prices, but I don't wish anyone to lose ISK is the point), but if trit gets to 6-6.5 just enjoy your profit (personally I'd dump at 5.5, but then I wouldn't invest in it in the first place). It ain't gonna get to 10. Of that I'm sure. Just remember if you do make some money, then it goes way back down, any token of gratitude for my wisdom will, as always, be much appreciated. It would be no fun sitting on that much trit if it did hit 6.5, only to fall down to 4 a couple months later, even though I wouldn't count on it spiking in the first place. OR, even if I'm wrong does everybody have huge piles of junk scattered around the galaxy that they're gonna reprocess now while they can and push prices down? Just how big is the collective pile of junk that everyone just kinda puts off doing something with? A few trillion worth of minerals? 20? 50? More!?!?? I'm sure it's huge in any case, but how huge is difficult to know or even guess at. If everybody liquidated that would be a hell of a thing. If you've got your finger on the pulse of the big industrialists and market movers maybe you have some chance of predicting the former "feeling"; the later size of the junk pile you'll just have to guess though. I'm not even gonna try to answer either.
Disclosure: I have no large mineral investments; I'm not confident that this couldn't go either way... or nowhere. I do think nox (or maybe even isogen) is a much better shot than trit though if I were to make a play at it. Although my theory about their recycling impact is correct, but the collective "junk reserve" is big enough and gets liquidated, they very well could be the worst investment- at least for awhile. That's why I'm sitting this one out. |

Brock Nelson
661
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 00:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
Got a tl;dr version? Signature removed, CCP Phantom |

Adunh Slavy
1349
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 18:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Less minerals from missions and rats, min prices go up. Min prices go up, more people mine, which means less people shooting rats. Less people shooting rats means less ISK in the economy. Less ISK in the economy means ISK is worth more, thus negating the increase in mineral prices.
How quickly that happens, how it manifests, much less what the price of anything might be three months down the road, is anyone's best guess. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. The Storm Collective
63
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
After the patch the demand will be for compressed ore, not minerals. The big consumers of trit will be buying compressed veld and compressed pyerite. Good luck offloading your trit. Or moving it. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1899
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:mynnna wrote:Erotica 1 wrote:Personally, I'm looking forward to more ore in compressed form moving around highsec in freighters. This is the best and most true post you have ever made on these fine forums. Freighter full of compressed glazed hedbergite please.... unlikely to happen in hisec, but you never know...
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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