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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.24 00:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
First of i like the idea, i think it is a good one that is a realistic and achievable way of balancing the filed. PVE in WH's as it stands is practically risk free if you have any sense what so ever. What staggers me is the ignorance of the current occupants in WH space as to the basic mechanics of the space there living in.
I'm torn between pointing out the glaringly obvious to all of the care bares and my desire to keep you ignorant so i can kill you more easily.
The people on the K162 side already have the advantage when it comes to detecting new signatures being that it shows up for them the second warp is initiated to the hole on the other side. So you have the time it takes possible aggressors to warp to a WH then book mark it, boat the 10-5k you land from the hole jump then finish session change, d-scan to see any potential gank-e's, then further D-Scan them to a specific 100% site or drop probes and find you.
Even the most competent on PVP groups rolling with aggressive intent, this process takes 1 maybe 2 minutes. Not taking into account more PVP like to have eyes on the PVE's before dropping the fleet on them another minute and that's assuming your at the warping if not you have to BM a wreck and wait for it to show up in shared book marks something that in on itself can take an age.
So in order for me to catch a capital in a site it has to be a minimum of 1 minute into its siege/triage timer, and that's with me doing everything perfectly.
So if you still haven't spotted on your probes the new sigg in your system then to be totally honest with you, your incompetent and have no business living in Bob's space.
I have lived in WH space since its introduction, i have spent the last 2 years in Hard Knocks running capital escalations 3 or 4 times a week. And we have never lost a PVE fleet, in fact as it stands the only conceivable way i can imagine loosing one is to be Blood Union'ed.
So yes please, I personally fully endorse encourage this idea, even if it ends up being boiled down to K162's only showing once you have jumped. Because the current state of PVE affairs in WH space is untenable.
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MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm your question has already been answered by multiple people in this very thread you should probably read them before posting.
In fact most the people i see posting in this thread that WH space is already to dangerous have hardly lost any ships in it.....
I'd love to know how much ISK is lost in ship losses compared to how much ISK is made in W-Space, im willing to bet there is a HUGE discrepancy. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.
We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs.
This isn't about GOOD ******* FIGHTS, this is about risk reward! |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I don't live in WH space.
Sleeper farming is boring as hell.
Thank you for your invaluable contribution to this topic, i was originally in favor of a change along the lines suggested but your argument has persuaded me that it is indeed very bad idea. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Said **** about polarization
In your very long post you confuse risk with suicide, the second you jump your last cap through to roll a C5 + hole or an Orca C4- your effectively reducing the mass to a point where anything that comes to your aid should you get jumped is trapped. They have 4 minutes 30 seconds (you seemed to be guessing at the time your polarized on one side so ill give you the exact time) to try and not get bumped of the hole and tank any DPS, those on the other side can warp in as many assets to the hole as they like knowing you can't bring help.
What this would mean is you loose the ability to control your chain, and a corp that is incapable of accessing its own chain at will is a dead one. This could happen only 3 or 4 times a week and members would become frustrated that they cannot do anything confined to there POS shields and exit out the first available door or stop playing eve altogether and go DOTA.
Yes many people have said this change or that would mean a mass exudes from W-Space and i have prity much disagreed with them all. But this would mean a definitive end to any small wh entities i can say that with some confidence as many of them don't feel comfortable rolling with hostiles spotted 2 WH's away never mind instr polarization.
So 3x no
Not even going near 3) + 4)...... |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:
What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
Giving us a little more clear info, preferably without words open of interpretation would really help the cause.
The problem being addressed is that there are meant to be areas of space that are graded in terms of your safety, High sec > Low sec > Null sec > WH's. All of eve operates on a risk reward system currently with the mechanics in place this scaling of safety is off. This is what the changes are here to address.
CCP Fozzie wrote:mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Newt BlackCompany wrote:There's already a delay of a minute or so. You have to actively spam the 'show anomalies' button to see new sigs immediately. This is as it should be.
The net result of this change will be that the big wh alliances will roll into hole after hole, catching and killing anyone escallating or farming anoms. It will greatly increase the risk, without any increase in reward. WH life is already risky enough.
This will force all smaller wh corps to join the big alliances to be able to stay in the wh, and they often came here because they didn't want to deal with the politics and pressure and required ops in the nullsec alliances.
I don't think this is a change that's either desirable or needed.
It'd be very similar to removing, or delaying, local chat updating in Nullsec, and I'm guessing that would be an unpopular move.
Show me your history of losses of PVE ships in W-Space! according to the info i can find your total PVE losses in W-Space amounts to 1 noctice. Now please tell me how long you have been in W-Space and how much ISK you have made here, confirm this information then resubmit your premise that W-Space is risky enough.
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MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.27 16:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
mkint wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Except meaningful discussion requires context. This is no more meaningful discussion than kicking a beehive is apiculture. There is no dev feedback, no justification, no goals to the proposal, no problems to try to fix. This is one of the least productive threadnaughts, and one of the dumbest OP trolling I've seen on these forums.
If you haven't got the context from the OP and the resulting conversation, if you don't understand the goals of the purposed changes by now then i'm afraid there is nothing anyone can do for you at CCP or in life. I could recommend some adult learning centers in your area though if you wan't to join the rest of us with basic comprehension. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.27 16:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:
Go to eve-census.com and see for yourself. I deem it unfair that there should be some sort of entry bar for peoples opinions to matter. How long, how much etc.
I'm not saying his opinion isn't valid or worth less than my own. The point im trying to make is his statement is incorrect, he says that it is already dangerous enough with current mechanics.
I'm saying that is safety is measured by how often you loose ships something i think is a fair statistic to draw a conclusion on the safety from. Then show me the losses, because i cant find any. If there are no losses or the losses are so small and rare then that means the current state of things are safe not dangerous as he proposed.
I'm sorry if my meaning was unclear, but can we all agree that the loss of ships to PVP is an accurate determining factor in judging if an area is safe or unsafe? |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.27 16:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Safety is not an opinion, you may think your safe but that dose not mean you are that is called ignorance or denial depending. Safety is a very real and measurable construct and can be defined as such. America even have a colour coding system for there safety .
There are whole areas of work that revolve around grading such things, its called health and safety. |
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MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
77
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Posted - 2014.03.27 17:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
All classes of WH have the same Dangers the only thing that changes from a C1 to a C6 is the scale, i see you spend allot of time in Low Sec. An apt comparison therefor may be the lowsec DED sites with the acceleration gate functioning as a WH, they will only allow frigates say to use it.
The danger inside the site therefor is the same as all Low sec the only thing that changes is the scale of ships involved, you couldn't therefor accurately distinguishes the LVL of danger between the whole of that system and specifically the site.
Its also maybe true to say that the smaller entities populate the lower classes and therefor the danger is smaller in actuality, but in the OP then did suggest a scaling system to address this. But as all of W-space tends to flow down the classes the people involved will usually be the same. Its just that the danger is diluted by more and more holes.
Say i start in a C5 > C5 then that C5 leads to a C4 that leads to a C2 I still have access to you although with every connection the danger ill find you in the C2 is diluted the more jumps. But once we connect to you the Class of the WH doesn't change the LVL of danger from the high class holes.
I feel i may have explained myself poorly but i can't think of a better way to describe it, simply put if i find you the Class of WH has no affect on the danger i present to you. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
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Posted - 2014.03.27 18:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:MadbaM wrote:
I feel i may have explained myself poorly but i can't think of a better way to describe it, simply put if i find you the Class of WH has no affect on the danger i present to you.
You're intel is flawed.  I've been living in W-space since early 2011. But that is neither here or there. The reason you feel you may have explained yourself poorly is that there is no clear and concise definition of 'safety'. Look for instance at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/safety where even they struggle. Hence we are back to square 1. It would really help me and I suspect others if CCO Fozzie elaborated quite a bit. More charts! 
1. The condition of being safe; freedom from danger, risk, or injury. (from your link)
Seems clear to me. and there you go again asking Fozzy to clarify something you have just argued cant be clarified WTF do you want? |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
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Posted - 2014.03.27 18:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:MadbaM wrote:
Show me your history of losses of PVE ships in W-Space! according to the info i can find your total PVE losses in W-Space amounts to 1 noctice. Now please tell me how long you have been in W-Space and how much ISK you have made here, confirm this information then resubmit your premise that W-Space is risky enough.
In fact i make that challenge to every PVE entity that has voiced an opinion in this thread, how often do you indeed loose ships to ganks in sites! remove all losses where you get caught on WH's running away. Purely your looses with sleepers on the kill mail, iv lived in W-Space from almost day 1 and i have never lost a ship inside a site to a gank not once.
This change doesn't just effect pve though. People can essentially seed into your system without a wormhole ever appearing. Three dreads in and poof. Hell, an invasion can be in full swing and the defenders roll into you. You have no chance of stopping them from entering the system on the wormhole, as they can warp off before you even know what happened. Balance is my issue with this.
The defenders already have the advantage of living in that system for how long? and with a prepared defense in place they need more advantage of a few seconds? but regardless i have already stated in this thread that the K162 being un scanable is probably not balanced and should show and be scanable on the K162 side when you jump from the spawning side (changed from spawning when warp initiated) |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 19:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:
What problem is it you are trying to fix?
Too little PvP?
In what class of holes (any, C5-6)?
Should mining be culled specifically?
Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners?
Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
The timers: If there are different timers, are they based on where the hole come from or lead to, or type (ie A239)?
Every question has been answered in the OP if you care to look, another person i have to point **** out to.......
CCP Fozzie wrote:the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing
CCP Fozzie wrote:actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets
CCP Fozzie wrote:very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
CCP Fozzie wrote:signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. The change is to K162 that spawn EVERYWHERE
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MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
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Posted - 2014.03.27 20:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Your addressing your questions to Fozzie and i quoted Fozzie from his OP, your asking question to which Fozzie has already given you answers.
I'm seriously starting to question my own sanity here, honestly not sure who the crazy one is but im fairly sure its not me. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
79
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Posted - 2014.04.07 18:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fox Troy wrote:CCP are you serious? There is enough dangers in WH. The idea to make delay at detecting k162 it's discrimination of WH-players, you don't let them any chance to save themself.
You think that there is not enough pvp in WH? You are wrong.
I can't say from all, but i say from me and my corp - we will quit from WH. And as 5-year WH-player i say that i don't want to play a game where i can't do that i want.
If CCP think that it's to easy to play if we see k162 when it appears then let back mechanics of probe-detecting.
CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED.
Excuse me by my english.
The last ship you lost in W-space was 4 months ago, yea WH to scary to much PVP. In fact and you say you have lived in WH's 5 years. you have lost 21 ships
Most of those losses are PVE drakes non worth over 100mill, the most expensive loss you have in 5 years is a 600mill orca, i estimate you have lost no more than 1.3bill in PVP losses. Care to let us know how much isk you have made during the same period.
I can make in ISK SOLO 1.3bill in 2 days, and your looses stretch over 5 years. WH very scary and so in favor of PVP CCP please fix we loosing to much isk!! |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
79
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Posted - 2014.04.19 09:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in.
That's the argument you fail to properly consider, WH space is currently risk free if you have the slightest idea how to run your operation. And even the null blocks have worked out how to operate in complete safety.
That is what is fulling the purposed changes. WH space is less risk than null sec with twice the isk rewards.
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