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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 989	Posted - 2014.05.15 14:58:00 - [61] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Feyd, this thread was about six weeks old. There is no expiration date on doing the lords work. Would you like to know more?
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 290	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:01:00 - [62] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No, not any corp will force their players to dock up. My alliance won't. I would hope so, since your alliance KB shows a reasonably active PVP group. But I see no good reason to fight for players that dislike PVP. EVE is supposed to be a game that welcomes different playstyles. I, for one, cannot imagine why anyone would prefer mission running to PVP. I was bored after 2 weeks! But I don't think that mission runners are inherently bad for the game. If they were, why have PVE content in the first place? I still don't understand why players in NPC corps or one-man corps get to PVE in highsec with crimewatch/CONCORD help, while players that form a corp don't always have that option.
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4271	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:08:00 - [63] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No, not any corp will force their players to dock up. My alliance won't. I would hope so, since your alliance KB shows a reasonably active PVP group. But I see no good reason to fight for players that dislike PVP. ........ I still don't understand why players in NPC corps or one-man corps get to PVE in highsec with crimewatch/CONCORD help, while players that form a corp don't always have that option. To the first point: Agreed, but docking up is extremely bad advice if you want to play the game AND avoid war. There are plenty of other options available if you want to do both To the second: NPC corps should not be a safe haven from Wardecs. But I dont know how 1 man corps are? "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 290	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:14:00 - [64] - Quote Kristalll wrote: Not necessarily fight, but adapt. Some people get wardecced, and they don't watchlist the attackers, don't watch local, don't stay aligned, don't scout. They just don't do anything to protect themselves. The reality is it's VERY hard to lose a ship in a wardec if you absolutely don't want to. Marmites Dec'd us, and since we could never easily guarantee a fight we had a chance of winning, we evaded them. We still spent our time under that wardec undocked, and even flying through hubs and trade routes and killing our own war targets. Kristall, I get it, you know how to evade combat. Your KB shows that you know how to shoot too. So naturally wardecs are, if anything, fun for you. But what about people that don't know PVP basics for the simple reason that they don't enjoy it (strangely, I might add, but still...)? I know nothing about mining/reprocessing for example. And very little about PVE. Swarms of red crosses, ugh Say they're really good at PVE instead, run LVL 4s like pros, help out newbros by letting them salvage and loot the missions. They flood the market with cheap SOE ships and their newbro friends flood the market with cheap meta 4 items and rigs (made of salvage). All for the joy of PVPers like us. Why should these guys, that are reasonably smart, nice and useful members of the EVE community, be encouraged to stay in NPC or one-man corps as the smartest way to continue on doing what they enjoy and do best?
Solecist Project Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1103	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:15:00 - [65] - Quote Kristalll wrote: Solecist Project wrote: The issue isn't wardecs, but people unwilling to group up and fight. There is no mechanic that can change this issue and forcing players into wars they don't want to participate in is nonsense. Thry'll just quit. What we need is a change of players. A change in how players learn to play the game. How they approach it. How they learn to understand it. The issue isn't solvable by mechanics, but by forming the minds of new playera themselves. Eventually the problem will simply cease to exist and the carebearing population will turn into an even smaller minority. The solution is actually fairly simple............. Not necessarily fight, but adapt. Some people get wardecced, and they don't watchlist the attackers, don't watch local, don't stay aligned, don't scout. They just don't do anything to protect themselves. The reality is it's VERY hard to lose a ship in a wardec if you absolutely don't want to. Marmites Dec'd us, and since we could never easily guarantee a fight we had a chance of winning, we evaded them. We still spent our time under that wardec undocked, and even flying through hubs and trade routes and killing our own war targets. Please don't respond to my posts if you can't put deeper thought into the words you are reading. I feel insulted. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears! Red blood, boiling hot!
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6177	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:17:00 - [66] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: But I see no good reason to fight for players that dislike PVP. EVE is supposed to be a game that welcomes different playstyles. I, for one, cannot imagine why anyone would prefer mission running to PVP. I was bored after 2 weeks! But I don't think that mission runners are inherently bad for the game. If they were, why have PVE content in the first place? I still don't understand why players in NPC corps or one-man corps get to PVE in highsec with crimewatch/CONCORD help, while players that form a corp don't always have that option. That's part of the point of the upcoming industry changes. To put assets out in space to defend. To give incentive to people so they have a reason to go out there. And as for CONCORD, I honestly don't understand it either. I would be much happier with a less binary mechanic, it wouldn't be so immersion breaking. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 290	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:20:00 - [67] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: To the first point: Agreed, but docking up is extremely bad advice if you want to play the game AND avoid war. There are plenty of other options available if you want to do both Yup, agreed, staying docked up is silly. What I'm not sure is a good idea is this: the easiest option for non-combat savvy guys is just to temporarily (or permanently) leave corp. Seems silly to me. Ramona McCandless wrote: To the second: NPC corps should not be a safe haven from Wardecs. But I dont know how 1 man corps are? Never tried it personally, but I understand you can disband and immediately recreate a 1-man corp, invalidating the wardec. James 315 described it in his awesome blog, for example. If NPC weren't a safe haven, anybody would be deccable, which is an option, sure. Nothing would change for me, for example, I live in lowsec. But what's the point of highsec, then?
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 1579	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:24:00 - [68] - Quote I declared war on the OP for making this thread.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 290	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:26:00 - [69] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: I declared war on the OP for making this thread. Remember to be careful with your dreads, though.
Organic Lager Devils Diciples League of Infamy 57	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:26:00 - [70] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Organic Lager wrote: Lets try it this way, wardecing is like a terrorist attacking america. America can roll in with tanks and fighters and the terrorists (wardecers) will run and hide in there caves. When america gets bored because they can't get any action they leave and return to business as usual. At this point the terrorists crawl back out of their caves and blow up another building and the cycle repeats. It's not about being defenceless it's about one side having nothing to defend. No it isnt Thats ganking you are thinking of Aren't wardecs used as a way to allow high sec ganking without concord interference. Isn't that the whole issue players have with the current system? Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? I would be in favour of some sort of dec dodge penalty if a system like this was added.
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 529	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:27:00 - [71] - Quote Amund Aldent wrote: Wardecs were created as a means of establishing legal fighting in highsec. Clearly, it was always intended that there be a purpose behind starting a confrontation with someone who is in highsec. Generally, that reason would have some strategic significance behind it, but they can be started for basically any reason. I feel they are being abused by mercs and griefers.... Stopped reading there. Griefing in Eve is really quite rare, and is a violation of the terms of service. What is extremely common, however, is the abuse of the term to refer to pretty much anyone who does anything that you don't like. It's essentially a word that losers use to demonize winners, as it sounds like a very powerful, meaningful word that evokes imagery of tweenagers teabagging newbs while yelling racial epithets over comms, but then you go and look at 99.99% of the instances of its application in Eve and all it really means here, most of the time, is, "He used his spacestuff to blow up my spacestuff in a way that was 100% in accordance with the rules of the game and I didn't want him to do that."
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4274	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:34:00 - [72] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Yup, agreed, staying docked up is silly. What I'm not sure is a good idea is this: the easiest option for non-combat savvy guys is just to temporarily (or permanently) leave corp. Seems silly to me. Agreed thats why I dont advise that either Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Never tried it personally, but I understand you can disband and immediately recreate a 1-man corp, invalidating the wardec. James 315 described it in his awesome blog, for example. If NPC weren't a safe haven, anybody would be deccable, which is an option, sure. Nothing would change for me, for example, I live in lowsec. But what's the point of highsec, then? Ah I forgot about that, fair enough. But why are NPC corps allowed to exist in this way? Im not sure I understand the rationale "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:34:00 - [73] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: I declared war on the OP for making this thread. Remember to be careful with your dreads, though. Don't worry we've apparently got gigantic piles of money and capital alts lying around, if we lose something else we'll just blow up some more of our own carriers.
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4275	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:37:00 - [74] - Quote Organic Lager wrote: Aren't wardecs used as a way to allow high sec ganking without concord interference. Yes. My Alliance currently has this one guy who has wardecced them. He only kills mining barges because he wont undock when they come for him in combat ships, which is fair enough. But he saids that ganking requires no skill even though he has gone out of his way to lower the amount of skill needed to destroy their mining ships. shrug At the end of the day though, they are two different things all the same. Organic Lager wrote: Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6179	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:39:00 - [75] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Organic Lager wrote: Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
WASPY69 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 265	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:43:00 - [76] - Quote Amund Aldent wrote: If you want to grief people, then go grief the miners / industrialists in the newbie areas. There is also the ever present way to flip cans, mobile tractor units, start limited engagements with people and just generally be a **** without having to start 50-100 wars a week that you have almost no intention of fighting unless you happen stance to find the war target in the same system as you. First of all, intentionally griefing newbies in the starter systems is a bannable offense, not to mention how sad and pathetic it is to do.. As for your OP.. Welcome to EVE! As you might have discovered by now, EVE isn't your regular theme park MMO with "safe zones", it's a cold, harsh, and cruel universe. If you don't like it then you have two options really, HTFU or GTFO. War decs are fine as is, apart from the fact that the victim corp can freely jump ship to avoid the war. And also, stop sounding like such a whining victim here. There's nothing stopping you from putting up a fight, and usually, apart from the more seasoned content creators, once you engage, and make THEM sit in station they usually give up since they are bad. So stop calling people "griefers" since there's no griefing going on. It's all fun and allowed within the sandbox. See a war dec as a chance to filter out all the bottom feeders from your corp, and a chance to bond and get experience with your true corp mates.
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 530	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:45:00 - [77] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Ramona McCandless wrote: Organic Lager wrote: Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting. I can. It's easy. It's not like they're going to be the ones doing any structure-pew, so it doesn't matter to them, and the general welfare of the game isn't really a concern for them, either - only their personal experience. So the question for them, really, is, "What sort of stupid, arbitrary rule could we inflict on other people to improve my own quality of life?"
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4276	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:50:00 - [78] - Quote SurrenderMonkey wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting. I can. It's easy. It's not like they're going to be the ones doing any structure-pew, so it doesn't matter to them, and the general welfare of the game isn't really a concern for them, either - only their personal experience. So the question for them, really, is, "What sort of stupid, arbitrary rule could we inflict on other people to improve my own quality of life by deterring them from interacting with me?" Sorry, which "them" are you talking about? "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 1581	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:54:00 - [79] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Sorry, which "them" are you talking about? I'm assuming the "them" is the heaving throng of carebears that want declaring wars to be more mechanically difficult or expensive so that they don't have to deal with being at war. The people who want the game to inherently protect them from interacting with other players.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 290	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:56:00 - [80] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Yup, agreed, staying docked up is silly. What I'm not sure is a good idea is this: the easiest option for non-combat savvy guys is just to temporarily (or permanently) leave corp. Seems silly to me. Agreed thats why I dont advise that either If it's a new player corp, sure, get out and fight. Have fun. Learn to scout, dscan, instadock/undock, whatever. Learn to lose your ship without crying and to get your pod out (even if it's empty). But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you. War Decs are just a PITA if you have 'more important' stuff to do. For example, I hear people with active wardecs aren't allowed in the main incursion fleets. For obvious, if somewhat cowardly, reasons. I would temporarily give CONCORD a vaction from incursion systems even in highsec, but that's just me. The reality is, experienced players that want hassle-free PVE simply don't join corps. Not a solid mechanic, imo.
Organic Lager Devils Diciples League of Infamy 57	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:58:00 - [81] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Ramona McCandless wrote: Organic Lager wrote: Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting. Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other. If the decers have to defend something it means they may actually have to fight in a war. But that isn't your goal now is it? You just want a free way to lock mining barges and freighters so you can feel like a bad ass "pvper".
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 533	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:58:00 - [82] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Ramona McCandless wrote: Sorry, which "them" are you talking about? I'm assuming the "them" is the heaving throng of carebears that want declaring wars to be more mechanically difficult or expensive so that they don't have to deal with being at war. The people who want the game to inherently protect them from interacting with other players. ^That's the them.
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4276	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:58:00 - [83] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you. How do you know that when I havent said what it is you should do instead of docking up? "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 290	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:02:00 - [84] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Gully Alex Foyle wrote: But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you. How do you know that when I havent said what it is you should do instead of docking up? Please tell us, then. I'm not defending any position here, actually I'm interested in highsec players' ideas on what seems to me a bit of a 'grey area' game mechanic.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6181	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:03:00 - [85] - Quote Organic Lager wrote: Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other. If the decers have to defend something it means they may actually have to fight in a war. But that isn't your goal now is it? You just want a free way to lock mining barges and freighters so you can feel like a bad ass "pvper". I'm a suicide ganker, among other things. I can do that pretty much whenever I want. And your suggestion, by the way, is entirely self serving. If such a thing were done, the defenders are still incentivized to just sit and wait it out. And the attackers are tied down to the tower, unable to pursue much past it, so the defenders can just leave the area and be 100% safe, nevermind having to make the large initial outlay of the cost of the tower in the first place. But that was your intent, wasn't it? To put a roadblock on legitimate gameplay. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4276	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:03:00 - [86] - Quote Organic Lager wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Ramona McCandless wrote: Organic Lager wrote: Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting. Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other. If the decers have to defend something it means they may actually have to fight in a war. But that isn't your goal now is it? You just want a free way to lock mining barges and freighters so you can feel like a bad ass "pvper". Wait..... so the attackers have to set up somethign for the defenders to attack, forcing the attackers to defend it? Where's the logic in that? Also, as I previously said, my Alliance was decced to avoid the penalties in ganking Ive never wardecced anyone in my life Its a waste of time Also... yeah, what stop the "defenders" ignoring the tower entirely? "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4276	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:04:00 - [87] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Ramona McCandless wrote: Gully Alex Foyle wrote: But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you. How do you know that when I havent said what it is you should do instead of docking up? Please tell us, then. I'm not defending any position here, actually I'm interested in highsec players' ideas on what seems to me a bit of a 'grey area' game mechanic. Id rather keep my strategies for preventing wardecs being a meaningful threat to myself, thank you "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Jarod Garamonde Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 1743	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:05:00 - [88] - Quote Amund Aldent wrote: Wardecs were created as a means of establishing legal fighting in highsec. I actually managed to read your entire post, though I'm not entirely sure how or why. Your idea is terrible for a great many reasons, and I shouldn't even have to list them because they're so obvious. Learn to fight back. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 1582	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:07:00 - [89] - Quote Organic Lager wrote: Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other. If the decers have to defend something it means they may actually have to fight in a war. Please explain how me having a large minmatar deathstar in a highsec system that would take 100+ man hours to destroy would get anyone our of their "hiding holes". POS bashing in highsec is utterly grueling and the defenders in highsec wars are thoroughly unequipped to do it, highsec mercs charge outlandish fees for POS takedowns against defended towers because of how ****** it is and even when they do happen it's extremely rare for anyone to actively defend them. You'd essentially be trading war bills for a POS fuel bill while making it totally impossible for the majority of corps in highsec to fight wars at all regardless of whether or not they have a legitimate reason for them. You've clearly never spent a second of your time playing this game fighting in highsec, so I'm struggling to see how you feel you're qualified to make suggestions about how to improve highsec warfare.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6182	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:11:00 - [90] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Ramona McCandless wrote: Gully Alex Foyle wrote: But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you. How do you know that when I havent said what it is you should do instead of docking up? Please tell us, then. I'm not defending any position here, actually I'm interested in highsec players' ideas on what seems to me a bit of a 'grey area' game mechanic. Id rather keep my strategies for preventing wardecs being a meaningful threat to myself, thank you Oh, come now. Watchlist the war targets. Watch local and/or D-scan. Use a Micro Jump drive the moment you enter a mission pocket, so you are 100km away from the warp in point. Be on comms and in fleet to have backup ready. The end. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.

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