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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.25 17:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote:
You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce.....
You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed...
But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate.
Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.25 17:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges.
It's not about damage types and damage resistances. It's about the nominal damage done based on weapon signature and targets signature.
- big weapon signature shooting at small targets signature. Small change to hit to none and very bad damage when it hits.
- small weapon signature shooting at big targets signature. Always always hit and always does 100% damage. That's wrong.
How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
The Complainitor Listen wrote:
It's CCP dude, what do you expect, rocket scientists ?
Well I don't expect some complex "rock scissors paper" combat system but at least a 2 way system. Big ship balance to small ship, small ship balance to big ship. What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?
I don't expect some complex combat system with class balance like in World of Warcraft where they balance the combat based on 4-5 combat elements. Even more simple to understand. You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
Just make small ship to big ship balance and the other way around. Who knows maybe the frigate players might try some bigger ships...
For now Eve combat is small billiard balls shooting at big billiard balls and that's about it...
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.25 17:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships with big guns...
The problem is very simple..
-big weapons vs small targets have drawback to the point they aren't usable. Tracking speed and bad hits if there are any hits. This part of the mechanic is ok.
-small weapons vs big targets, no drawbacks. Full damage, always hits.
Ok, the dps is small but that's why they are small weapons on small cheap ships. There is no difference in dps between hitting a medium size ships or a large size ship
That's what I'm saying, if you use a weapon against the wrong target there should be a drawback, not just for big weapon vs small target but for small weapon vs big targets. Without this the balance only goes one way. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better.
Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine. Especially if the change means you have to get a bigger ship and you don't know how to make money...
Eve might be different from other games but the mindless fanboyz are all the same, "the game is perfect". Next major patch they change it, oh, wait then it had to be broken.
I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet because reducing the effectiveness of smaller weapons against bigger targets would mean pvp needs bigger ships and more of the specialized small ships to counter the big ones like some bigger stealth bombers.
Oh, well, CCP does what they can, like buffing mining by nerfing refining.... |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
28
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Posted - 2014.03.25 21:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jill Chastot wrote:
Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh.
then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.
Make sense?
It's not about missing the warehouse, it's about demolishing the building. How long do you think you have to shoot at a building with a pistol to bring it down? You're just trying to provide a real world example for some broken mechanic from Eve. You can't do that, it doesn't exist.
Victor Andall wrote:
Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies.
And this is what a 10 year old kid answers when he doesn't understand what he reads. Just ask again if you don't understand, maybe I can help you. If it's too hard you can try again later. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.26 08:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were).
Of course they wouldn't agree with me. This change means you'll have to match the enemy ISK for ISK because the smaller ships loose their effectiveness against bigger ones the same way the big ships are ineffective against small ones.
What frigate flying PvPers would want to do that? It means you would have to earn some ISK to get bigger ships if you want to kill bigger ships.
Anyone can risk some frigates and destroyers in PvP but are the frigate PvP-ers willing to take a Battlecruiser or Battleships for some pvp rounds? Of course not, it's risky
As I said I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet. This would lead to PvP with all ship classe, more expensive ships destroyed, more output from the industry, more Plex sold for ISK.... |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
34
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is perfect example why the balancing of small weapons vs large targets is need. This video contains the exact exploit I'm talking about. Battleship killed with 1 small blaster! In staid of an industrial ship it could have been a frigate. This is the literal sinking of the battleship with the machine-gun.
That's what un-blanced combat looks like.
Not to mention the other absurd exploits in that fit. Stacking armor repairs without any penalty. Stacking cap recharge without any penalty and so on. Basically stacking repair rate and cap recharge on a 2mil med ship to tank a battleship. Players that exploit this part of the game like it, who wouldn't like it? But it's wrong.
In simple terms that anyone would understand this looks like WoW character that endlessly refills his hit points and mana without any problem.
Players that are around for some time in the game like to think about Eve that it's a complex game and hard (indirectly making them good players). Complex? Yes, player driven economy, politics and so on. Hard? what's hard the ship to ship combat? It's not hard, it's completely broken. Just take the right ship+fit and get ok exploiting the game.
Simply put the Eve combat in World of Warcraft terms looks like this: 2 classes can fight, the other 8 are just targets that can't fight back. Who would play something like this. Well probably 30-40k players would still play it and think it's very good.
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. It's the literal sinking of the battleship with the anti-ship cannon.
Yes, anti-ship cannon that works on everything from drones to capital ships with equal efficiency
Big guns are designed to work on big targets and suffer a lot of drawbacks when used on small targets.
Small guns work against small targets and they work without any drawbacks. That's the problem here.
I think most Eve players understand that but don't really want to admit it because they like to use cheap ships and cheap fits and be equally efficient against any targets. All of you know what parts of Eve are broken and you know how to avoid and exploit it. That's why you can use a cargo ships with a machine gun to destroy a battleship.
That's why Eve never get more than 50k online players in weekend and went free 2 play. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
37
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Posted - 2014.03.27 09:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Luwc wrote:
if a dude in a battleships dies to a solo frig he deserves to die.
Yes, because it's his fault the game is unbalanced. In some random mmo class A always kills class B because it can't be countered. Of course it's the fault of the class B player. It's like a chess game that starts with the pieces set that the first player win in 3 moves no matter what. It's the fault of the second player because he lost.
It's the fault of CCP that they made a half done game and can't be bothered to change it. Most players in the game now just rolled over and accepted it the way it is. The rest of 3 million or so just left
On top of everything comes the medieval twisted logic the "veteran" Eve players. I need 15 min to kill a battleship with a frigate there for the game is balanced. They have arguments like: I'm right, you're wrong even if I don't understand what you're saying. |
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
38
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Posted - 2014.03.27 10:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Is the OP saying that Frigates should be able to carry Large Drones and Large Turrets so they are balanced against Battleships?
News flash, they already exist in the game, Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships that can fit battleship weapons. It's not that frigates can kill large ships with small unbalanced weapons they even pack battleship size weapons.
And in 3 sec somebody will come with a childish argument that Battleships can mount small weapons too. But if the small weapons are the answer to everything why put large ships in the game on top of that with broken mechanics.
The only way to fix this is to change the damage calculation from
1 * weapon dmg to dmg adjustment * weapon dmg.
The dmg adjustment should never be larger than 1 and it should be equal weapon signature/target signature |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
45
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Posted - 2014.03.28 08:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote:
If eve wanted to be more realistic there should be automatic weapons which they could shoot 30-40 rounds each weapon per cycle time or RPS as used in current gun systems.
Realism in game may or may not be good. In War Thunder ground forces they have realistic tank combat where tanks one-shot each other. The players in closed beta quit after 1-2 days.
Combat games need a combat system and the one in Eve is only half complete. The small scale PvP in Eve is very bad because of the ship imbalance. Small ships with small weapons have the upper hand over larger ships with large weapons. There is no penalty for attacking a large ship with a small one.
I only proposed a small change, to adjust the weapon damage based on the weapon signature and target signature. This will lead to larger range of ships that can be used in PvP. As an indirect effect it will require more output from the industry and more income for miners. Everyone would benefit from this.
Probably most of the trolls here don't actually understand what this weapon damage adjustment means. Then again you don't really need to understand what's discussed here in order to troll, right?
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
45
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:
We do, it means the game would be completely broken and the only ship worth flying would be a battleship. Battleships are balanced, but they are balanced for their role. Since you don't understand their role, you don't understand why they are balanced.
At first glance it would look like everyone would be flying battleships around. But there is always the risk of loosing an expensive ship and right now it's the problem that you can loose a 200mil ship to 2-3 frigates. After the change to the dmg adjustment you would risk loosing the Battleship but only to 2-3 cruiser equipped at least with medium weapons.
A large ship like a BS should be relative immune to attack from 2-3 frigates equipped to fight small ships. Their small weapons aren't designed to handle large targets the same way the large weapons aren't designed to attack small ones. Simple.
After this change the small specialized ships can be diversified even more. Right now there is a specialized small ship that can equip Large missiles. The stealth bombers.
Small ships equipped with large weapons should be able to destroy large ships as they do now. Even more, another destroyer variant can be added to the game, a gun ship that can quip Large turret weapons.
Something like a Catalyst version that get 99.65% reduction to large turret power needs the same way the stealth bomber gets for torpedo Launcher. If the ship fits only large weapons it can handle large targets but can't handle small ones.
Right weapon for right target. Except that now the small weapons are the right weapon for everything.
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
47
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Posted - 2014.04.01 07:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lidia Caderu wrote:So basically there have to be one more modifier to damage based on ratio of size cannon/launcher to size of target (not sig). Not bad idea actually.
Of course it's a good idea.
If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this. Take for example this Juan fan boy above( whenyou tell people to stop playing and gtfo, you are a fanboy). I looked at 3 pages of his kills, all the ships he lost are frigate and destroyer size. Why frigate, because that's where the exploits are...
They just love to exploit this imbalance in the combat system to go with rookie ships or 300k isk hulls after medium size or even large ships 50-100 times more expensive. This huge ISK imbalance must be addressed for small scale PvP.
Maybe this is balanced in large fleets but the day to day PvP is done in small combat of 2-4 ships. Outside the Eve community does anyone see this game as a PvP game? Of course not, it's see as some ganker paradise because of this PvP imbalance.
Even if CCP makes this dmg adjustment for weapon/target sizes it will take some time to wash the bad reputation Eve got because of thie PvP imbalance
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
47
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Posted - 2014.04.02 09:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
oohthey ioh wrote:
what you are trying to say dose make sense but that is already in the game, by giving the bigger ships more HP.
Of course larger ships have more hit points, it takes more materials to build and are larger.
The issue here is right weapon for the right target. The only reason some players don't like it is simply because it's not in the game.
Here is another example, rockets. Larger rockets hit small ships but do less damage because of the target signature, target speed, explosion speed and radius. So it's ok for big rockets to do less damage to small ships because it's balanced like that. There weren't designed to take out small ships.
The question is why should a light missile or rockets to full damage to large ships when they were designed to do their full damage to small fast ships?
Well, CCP keep the game broken like it's now. When new games like Star Citizen come out see how many of the PvP-ers still play Eve just for the PvP. It's easy now when Eve doesn't have completion. I wouldn't be surprised CCP will make quite a lot of changes to PvP once the completion start draining the player base.
Oh, well, there will still be miners in Eve... |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
48
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Posted - 2014.04.02 12:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote: Similarly if you did hit the frig, which the pilot would have to be pretty stupid to stop moving completely or move on dead away or towards you... then they would die in 1 or 2 hits instead of the 150 hits it will take them to grind through your hp.
Kill BS with frigate? This guy thinks so. He probably exploits that all the time.
How about this question, can a destroyer equipped with small weapons destroy a Battleship? Does it have the dps to burn the battleship tank? I think we all know the answer...
In 8 pages nobody has provided one single argument why the small weapons shouldn't be rebalanced. Sry guys, but "we like it(cause we can exploit it)" or "it's in the game for years" or "battleship has lots of hp" aren't arguments. 6 year old kids use this kind of arguments when they want something. When you don't like what's written here, could you at least write your comment so it doesn't look like it's taken from the warcraft forum?
Again: why large and medium ships with large/medium weapons should lose their effectiveness against small ships when the small ships don't lose anything? |
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