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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 04/05/2006 22:12:44
Continued as a separate discussion from Tux's post here and whether you think its enough.
15% cap use reduction, with rof calculated at max skills translates to..
Electron Blaster Cannon II [3.375s rof]
Before: 12, 9 (controlled bursts V), 2.667 cap/s
After: 10.2, 7.65 (controlled bursts V), 2.267 cap/s
Ion Blaster Cannon II [5.0625s rof]
Before: 20, 15 (controlled bursts V), 2.963 cap/s
After: 17, 12.75 (controlled bursts V), 2.519 cap/s
Neutron Blaster Cannon II [5.91s rof]
Before: 26, 19.5 (controlled bursts V), 3.299 cap/s
After: 22.1, 16.575 (controlled bursts V), 2.805 cap/s
A rough difference of 10% in cap use per tier. Taking into account seven turrets on a blaster-fitted Megathron and injector setup, with the assumption that skills are maxed, no damage mods are used, and injector is a Heavy Electrochemical..
Electron II's - 190.428/800
Ion II's - 211.596/800
Neutron II's - 235.620/800
An average of 212.5 cap per 800 charge is used simply for firing weapons. For fairness sake, Neutron setups are not as common so the number is closer to 200, or 25%.
With an injector capacity of 4 charges, 25% equates to one full charge per reload spent on firing. With 4 charges loaded into the injector, and a maximum of 16 spares in cargohold you have a total of 20 cap boost 800's at your disposal. 25% of which is five charges or four thousand cap.
20 charges are expelled at 100 seconds (5 full loads x 12 seconds = 60 seconds + four reloads (40 seconds) in between = 100 total).
The typical dual repairer setup drains 800 cap every 11.25 seconds (or 853 @ per injector cycle) with an additional drain of 51 per injector cycle for disruptor & stasis web, and 72 per injector cycle for four armor hardeners you end up with a net drain of..
376 CAP @ 12 SECONDS
Which translates to 31.33 cap/s loss or ~135 seconds to dry up 4200 cap. Throw in the fact that most fights do not start at 100% cap and require one or two bursts of the MWD to get into range - your cap runs to zero before your charges are spent.
This is using antimatter and no damage mods.
As an example, using Void L with one Magnetic Field Stabilizer II and Ion II's is 3.75 cap/s or 315 per injector cycle or 491 cap lost per cycle or 41 cap/s drain or 102 seconds if you start at 100%.
It goes without saying that even one Heavy or Medium Nosferatu can severely throw off cap balance.
By comparison, a similarily set up AC Tempest has only enough cargo space for 15x 800 charges (one less than the megathron) but devotes all 19 of them to tanking (15 for the Megathron) making it not only the faster ship, but also the more durable one.
Not getting deeply into the issues of tracking (untouched) and the CPU (10% reduction), but a with a rack of Ion II's and 5% turret cpu implant you save roughly 33 tf. Not enough to switch to non-faction gear, making the Megathron not only poorer at survival, but more costly to lose with identical performance setups.
Its my opinion that these changes are a tribute to all the blaster whining, with no effort being made at understanding the source of it. Even with the proposed changes, the Blasters eat more cap than Lasers with similar range and damage output. Knocking the cap use by 80% (20% of what it is today) only brings its tanking efficiency on par with the Tempest - a ship which is traditionally supposed to rely on its speed to dictate terms.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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sableye
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:16:00 -
[2]
thx for doing the math I don'nt think the changes are enough I feel they need todo more damage (mainly cruiser and battleship blasters frig blasters seem pretty fine.
ORC Outrage Recruiting You Today. |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:23:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
Its my opinion that these changes are a tribute to all the blaster whining, with no effort being made at understanding the source of it.
I was about to post a similar thing, but you just summed it up in a nutshell.
Both the blaster tweaks and artillery tweaks, as well as the Typhoon change, are token gestures, nothing more. The absolute rubbish (sorry all, but it *is* rubbish) about not wanting to change to much too fast has to go. There's enough numbers posted as evidence on a daily basis to make *exactly* the changes that are needed all at once, and not make irrelevent changes to pander to idiots.
On top of it all, I'm still stunned by the slap in the face that is the Tachyon buff amid all of these stupid proposed changes that have little to no effect on the weapons that have problems. Not to mention the total ignorance for the mathematics and evidence evidenced by these forums, day in day out.
Really. Come on. Get your finger out, CCP.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Kye Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:42:00 -
[4]
We might as well just give up and all train for torp Ravens instead.
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ChalSto
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:46:00 -
[5]
Edited by: ChalSto on 04/05/2006 22:47:55
Originally by: Kye Kenshin
We might as well just give up and all train for torp Ravens instead.
NOS+ECM+HeavyTank+Drones+Dominix = GALLENTEOMFGPWNTHEMALL  To hell with the torp-raven lol
nah........tachy-geddon and torp-phoon...
lol....still after these changes my bthron setup will cost more than 200m isk just to GET ENOUGH CPU TO FIT THAT ********* SHIP 
Current Location: Relax and drinking a beer with Dreez and waiting for Blaster changes UPDATE -> Still waiting... |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:55:00 -
[6]
cpu needs to be reduced by 20% [not 10% nt 15% they still require a cpu mod or faction fittings]
cap needs to be reduced by 75% yes 75% not 15%. the cap is far higher than lasers who can get 48km optimal thus dont need a mwd thus dont get hit by the mwd 25% cap penalty!!
and as digitalcommunist showed we use far too much cap just running our guns, and his numbers where at optimal cap. normally you are at 80% or less at start and if u need to mwd into range thats less than half cap
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Jimmycs83
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Its my opinion that these changes are a tribute to all the blaster whining, with no effort being made at understanding the source of it.
this pretty much sums up what i thought when i read the proposed changes. i personally still feel that the dmg that you should be able to do by getting to 2km in a slow bs like the mega should reflect that fact and not just be a very small amount over the dmg that can be done at much more reasonalbe ranges by other close range BSs.
Anyhow another few months of complaining on the forums and we may see some more changes eventually. Doubt youll ever get a b-thron that will even come close to a similarly skilled torp raven tho for close range combat.
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.05.04 22:59:00 -
[8]
Yep, as an ACPest Pilot... there is no place in the game for the Blasterthron with the ACPest. Good post hope they realize it and now we have test server to play with to prove the points hope the DEVs stop by and watch people spar.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:10:00 -
[9]
Before it gets further down the road of "you have the Dom which totally kicks ass!" - arguing that one ship should remain crap because another is good has never worked before and it won't work here either.
The reason for the Dominix's clear superiority over the Megathron has to do with the overpowered state of Nosferatu and ECM (lack of counters, to be more specific). Virtually any "standard" setup that involves natural cap recharge, and turrets fails to deliver the kind of threat you can be with the configuration mentioned above. And if you'll read the latest blog, all that is being looked into anyways with no one happier than myself.
So please, keep the thread on topic, which is: the utterly castrated feeling people get when flying a Megathron. As I've said before, you can remove all Hybrid cap use, and make fittings a no-brainer (not gonna happen), the best result you get is a ship which has more than a 50% chance of beating a properly equipped Raven in 1v1 at close range.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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twit brent
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:14:00 -
[10]
Looks like im gonna be piloting the dominix after tuxes changes after all.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:14:00 -
[11]
A little more on the cpu reduction should be enough.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:21:00 -
[12]
Yea.. Big difference
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:23:00 -
[13]
DC is right.
You know, even without the math, the casual observer who actually PLAYS and pvp's both in a tempest and a blasterthron would notice the difference in the cap used to fire the weapons versus that used to operate the tank on the respective ships. It's so glaring that it's obvious to the unaided and untrained eye. Yet in this case it eludes CCP. I don't understand how they cannot notice this difference.
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Nebuli
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kye Kenshin
We might as well just give up and all train for torp Ravens instead.
QFT, which saddens me
CEO - Art of War |
Darpz
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: twit brent
Looks like im gonna be piloting the dominix after tuxes changes after all.
Yup, after kali the mega is going to be really next to useless since it will be outclassed by the caldari railship (which is really the only thing the mega is good at now is ranged fleet fights) and if they don't get a clue with blasters it will be still outclassed closer range by domi and AC Tempest.
And I was hoping my Null L print might actaully be in demand after patch :(
The only good fix is a DEAD fix |
GO MaZ
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:41:00 -
[16]
TRUTHS.
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Xori Ruscuv
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:44:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 04/05/2006 23:45:36
When I saw that blasters were going to get fixed finally. I crapped myself.
This is a big slap in the face though.
I guess I have my Domi, but I wanted my Mega. I guess it is time to train for a pulse apoc or autopest.
Blasters are supposed to be the Gallente racial weapon. Why do they have to be like this? The Megathron is useful as a sniper, but that is going to be obsolete soon. Screw the backstory. Give the Mega an optimal bonus, and lets get this blaster crap over with.
Originally by: Darpz
Yup, after kali the mega is going to be really next to useless since it will be outclassed by the caldari railship (which is really the only thing the mega is good at now is ranged fleet fights)
You beat me to it, and I'd like to reiterate this point. Scream it from the mountaintops and in the streets. If their aim is to make Gallente ships useless in fleet battles, they are doing a damn fine job.
Gotcha! I bet that got ya all hot under the collar, didn't it?  |
Wizie
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
When I saw that blasters were going to get fixed finally. I crapped myself.
This is a big slap in the face though.
I guess I have my Domi, but I wanted my Mega. I guess it is time to train for a pulse apoc or autopest.
Blasters are supposed to be the Gallente racial weapon. Why do they have to be like this? The Megathron is useful as a sniper, but that is going to be obsolete soon. Screw the backstory. Give the Mega an optimal bonus, and lets get this blaster crap over with.
For solo.. Apoc/Arma are not the thngs you need to be training.
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Xori Ruscuv
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wizie
.. Apoc/Arma are not the thngs you need to be training.
Yeah... the Domi is fine, but I'd like some variability. Though I like drones, I want a gun ship.
Gotcha! I bet that got ya all hot under the collar, didn't it? |
Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Wizie
.. Apoc/Arma are not the thngs you need to be training.
Yeah... the Domi is fine, but I'd like some variability. Though I like drones, I want a gun ship.
what happens when ECM is nerfed?  Don't forget about that. Because therein lies alot of the "shock and awe" with the domi. And if they add in a lil salsa a la "nos nerf" then the domi really gets it in the balls. Then, no mega, no domi. I guess gheylente get to fly expensive ishtars keke 
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:59:00 -
[21]
I can't stand having to post 10 pages of calculations and explanations again.
So, I'll just get right to it:
Even after this change, a blasterthron is still only the 7:th best battleship for solo work (typhoon, tempest, geddon, domi, raven and scorp are all better).
And it's useless in bigger gangs.
So what's the point (except that it's the most fun ship to fly)? 
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Darpz
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Posted - 2006.05.04 23:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Wizie
.. Apoc/Arma are not the thngs you need to be training.
Yeah... the Domi is fine, but I'd like some variability. Though I like drones, I want a gun ship.
what happens when ECM is nerfed? Don't forget about that. Because therein lies alot of the "shock and awe" with the domi. And if they add in a lil salsa a la "nos nerf" then the domi really gets it in the balls. Then, no mega, no domi. I guess gheylente get to fly expensive ishtars keke
still even without nos/ecm a blaster domi still outclasses a mega in tank and dps
The only good fix is a DEAD fix |
ThunderGodThor
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Posted - 2006.05.05 00:33:00 -
[23]
THXS for running the new math on it DC. Some of the changes help to adress the problem but for the most part they do **** . Its doesnt truly yet adress the cap problem. They will most likely still need to much cpu.
Neutrons arnt the only blasters in the game that need some looking in to also. The med Ions need some looking into as a deimos has a hard time fitting them even with max skills.
I also think that blasters might need a very small damage increase as to how short the range is on them for the large and maybe the med because with the apoc and temp can do as close to the amount of damage u can at a much longer range there is something wrong with it.
Over all the issue still remains blasters are broke if the devs would actually do some reading on the forums some have come up with very good ideas on how to fix them and how much they need to be done by. It would also help as some threads have go on so long with no responce that it would help if there was one.
Linkage Some very good sugectons on how to fix blasters in that thread even tho it evolved into what is wrong with the diemos.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.05 00:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Not getting deeply into the issues of tracking (untouched)
Originally by: Tuxford
Tracking Bonuses
They are not really that good so they are getting increased. All bonuses that were 5% per level are now 7.5% per level and those that were 7.5% per level are 10% per level.
Megathron, currently 5% tracking per level.
Right.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.05 01:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Not getting deeply into the issues of tracking (untouched)
Originally by: Tuxford
Tracking Bonuses
They are not really that good so they are getting increased. All bonuses that were 5% per level are now 7.5% per level and those that were 7.5% per level are 10% per level.
Megathron, currently 5% tracking per level.
Right.
Originally by: Thread Title Because You Are Blind, Maya Rkell
The math of blaster tweaks..
Right. Go troll elsewhere.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.05 01:13:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2006 01:13:48
It'd be a troll is I was incorrect. It is one of the proposed tweaks to the ship you are looking at, the Megathron, and you are comparing it to ships like the AC tempest.
As it is, you are incorrect, DigitalLenninist (see, I can make deliberate and unfunny spelling "mistakes" too!)
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Beowulf Scheafer
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Posted - 2006.05.05 01:15:00 -
[27]
i have never asked for much. the maths digital has done are really impressive. it shows what a blastertron is. wtfgettingpwnedmobile. but why only medium neutrons get 10% pg decrease? i accept the fact that i rely on cap injectors, also the fact that i have to counter cpu need with faction loot.its expensive, but possible. the only thing i can't counter without wasting a (worth more than millions of isk) lowslot is pg.
now why do only thoose blasters get the decrease my deimos can't fit even after the patch??????
i really waited for the day tomb (or now tux) posted a statement about blaster changes. and now it ruined my day. everything stated in this post has nearly no effect on the ships i use (or planned to use). i payed CCP for learning 12 mil SP just in blasters, and this is what it was good for? for good sake, i need powergrid!
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Lorth
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Posted - 2006.05.05 01:35:00 -
[28]
I don't know. What I really wanted, and always have is a damage increase.
Without one your basically flying a ship in which you have to gimp your whole setup to do as much damage as the next guy. WTF is the point when you can put more damage onto a target with any other ship.
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.05 01:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 05/05/2006 01:41:49
The point that the Megathron gets a tracking bonus does nothing for the fact that blasters have inherently poor tracking to begin with. Even at 37.5% I can argue that its a wasted bonus (or not really a bonus to begin with); wasted because its not required for similar ships like the Deimos. Not only do you ignore everything related to blasters - which this thread is about - you ignore every other ship in the game which gets its 5% tracking bonus boosted to 7.5%.
Which of course is going to let certain ships land even better hits on me than before, AND I CAN'T SAY THATS FIXING THE PROBLEM CAN I?
You're a troll because you feel the need to voice yourself when you really have nothing worth saying. You niether oppose nor confirm my arguments - so lets get that cleared up.
This is about the only time you're going to have someone asking for your stance on things, so please make a screenshot, or print it out for safekeeping as a momento for when you are old and bitter at the sad world which spawned you. Please tell the great community of EVE Online, Maya Rkell, exactly what you think of Tuxford's proposed Blaster tweaks. Are they enough? Will they fix the very real balance issues that exist with blasters?
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.05 01:48:00 -
[30]
I'm just right. You see that as trolling because you're wrong. That's your choice.
PS, I think you need to re-read Naughty Boy's conclusions on how "good" hits are at various tracking levels.
I don't have enough data yet to decide on the blaster tweaks. I'd want to test them myself before I could decide, on the test server. This weekend, IF it's up.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
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