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Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
273
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Posted - 2011.11.14 03:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
yep, you guessed it. thats yet another idea to fix bounties.
we all know that the wild west style of the bounty system doesn't work in the eve universe for several reasons - everyone can have an alt, some have even real friends - death is not that meaningful as in real life - podkills in low and highsec are almost impossible under normal conditions (aligntime < locktime, no bubbles)
goals - bounties should hurt (the bad guy) - and they should encourage bounty hunters to hunt people - telling your friend/alt to kill you to farm the bounty should not work
fact1: pods and ships have (average ISK) values. Clone imps + the clone itself = pod value. Ship = hull + modules fact2: if bounty > pod value = problem (current situation)
now the idea: payout for shipkill: max 60% of its value* payout for podkill: max 80% of its value*
So as soon you have a non trivial amount of bounty on your head you will get killed sooner or later**, not once, multiple times until your bounty is payed off since the hunters don't get all the bounties at once (fact2 fixed). Starting with a high enough bounty you will be made automatically outlaw in highsec.
This hurts, creates a the bounty hunter profession and is not exploitable (for the same reasons why ship insurance is not exploitable).
discuss
* < 100 to compensate market fluctuations. values are chosen as example ** assuming you undock You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
274
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Posted - 2011.11.14 15:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pelador Rova wrote: Or place cheap bounties on non PvP ships e.g. freighters/miners, who may have expensive ships and pod ratings and profit enourmously?
In fact place cheap bounties on anybody and potentially profit substantially?
no. nothing changes in this regards. You need a minimal sec status to be able to receive bounties. The outlaw thingy is only an optional detail to make it more interesting but in no way the main point of the bounty system You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
274
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
ok i changed the wording a little bit but i really don't know how to explain that better, seems obvious to me. Maybe someone can point out whats unclear? And yes you will have to read the whole post to get the intention. You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
274
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Posted - 2011.11.14 16:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Schnoo wrote:[quote=Pelador Rova] But honestly, I'd go further and that and allow bounties to be payed when ships are destroyed, as well as when pods are (two separate payouts, if ISK is left for the second). And also, include implant killmails (upcoming patch...) into your payment method. yeah thats already in the proposal. you get a separate payout for the ship and one for the pod as hunter. One of the reasons for that is that podkills in lowsec are almost impossible without bubbles and normal conditions (no server lag etc). You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
274
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
there are still some corner cases to tackle.
the hull insurance payed back to the bad guy should be subtracted from the ship payback to the hunter. This fixes an exploit where killing yourself repeatedly in an empty insured T1 ship could bring the bounty back to 0 without big ISK impact for the bad guy.
This should make almost no difference in the usual case where the bad guy is flying a fully fitted ship, since the fitting is part of the ship payout formula. You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked
a proper bounty system for eve: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
275
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
i felt it would be easier to balance the formula while taking insurance payout into account if its subtracted directly.
the payback function would look like:
ship_payout = (ship_value * alpha - bad_guy_insurance_payout) + module_value * beta pod_payout = implant_value * gamma + clone_value
if(ship_payout < 0) ship_payout = 0; // safety measure for very small alpha
bounty_payout = min(bounty_remaining, pod_payout + ship_payout) bounty_remaining -= bounty_payout You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked
a proper bounty system for eve: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
296
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Posted - 2011.11.22 01:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
yeah would be certainly easier to implement but i wasn't sure if this would be fair since the bad guy payed the insurance from his own pocket and its somewhat independent from the whole bounty thing...
But this are only little details which the experts at CCP should deal with ;) You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked
a proper bounty system for eve: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
303
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Posted - 2011.11.25 00:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Moonaura wrote:Always pro ideas to discuss making the system actually usable, so bravo Bienator.
Alas, because of the ways it could be exploited, it is extremely hard to make Bounty workable, even with your suggestions (I like the idea of the ship loss partially paying out as most decent low sec pilots are slippery when in their pod). Having non-blue or same alliance won't stop it being abused sadly, because it takes just seconds to create a neutral alt to cash in.
yeah, but this does not help.
the payout is always less than the value of the destroyed item. You can not make money by selfkill (via blue, alt.. etc).
lets say you fly a navy apoc which costs with modules around 800mil, your bounty is 1000mil. Your alt kills you in it.
payout = 60% of 800mil = 480mil
this means you reduced your bounty by 480mil but lost 800mil in assets
-> 320mil lost
same applies for podkills a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
304
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 01:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bienator II wrote: implementation details ... - a hunter won't get any payout if he is in the same alliance or blue to the bad guy
reasoning: lets say lots of bad guys of an alliance have an event. Lets say they kill each other as target practice. In this case they would have an advantage if they would have bounty since they would get part of the losses back while reducing the bounty. Thats uncool.
This doesn't solve the issue entirely but it helps at least.
but again: you can't make profit anyway even without this restriction (!)
second possible restriction would be to accept only hunters if they have a "good enough" sec standing or at least: hunter standing > bad guy standing
a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 17:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:i say make a new bounty agent
that gives out random bounty's to random people with a set amount of time to complete it in say 3 days
common, thats so artificial. I would accept this in a singleplayer game (lets say X3 or something like that) but not in an mmo. If we can have both sides player driven why should we change that? a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
306
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Posted - 2011.11.25 17:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the no insurace payout thing mean that you can "steal" insurance? Place bounty, kill or suicide gank him so they get no insurance. You won't get it too, but this would be horror for miners in HighSec. no, i don't think so.
can you give an example?
The insurance subtraction trick only makes sure that: hullvalue << payoutvalue this is important if someone tries to get rid of the bounty. The bad guy would use empty expensive insured T1 ships and begin suicide via alts for minimal isk loss.
If you subtract the insurance from the bounty payout you basically fix this exploit. At least that is the idea behind that.
edit: clarification: the bad guy still gets his insurance but the hunter just gets less payout (insurance subtracted) a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 18:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gerrick Palivorn wrote: If a bounty is collected, the pirate does not get an insurance payout on their ship (thats where it hurts the pirate). And if the pirate is under GCC, that insurance is paid directly into the bounty.
we discussed this a bit on the first page. Problem here is that insurance is somewhat independent from bounties. IMO it wouldn't be fair to remove the mechanics of insurance form people with bounty on the head. Why would the bad guy ever insure the ship with this in place?
But hey we could have an compromise. Like 50% insurance payout, rest goes to the bounty payout.
regarding the positive sec status: Riddick would say sometimes you need evil to kill evil :) I don't think we really need this restriction so far.
but once again those are only little details to smooth the corners - gamedesign experts should work on them ;)
keep up the discussion! a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 18:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gerrick Palivorn wrote: I know there is a way to abuse this, please find it as I cannot taint my own ideas...
+1. Yeah, everyone is encouraged to try to abuse the system ;) a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 20:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
SOISOISOIOSIOSISOISOIS wrote: Bienator II you say its a artificial well all rules in the sandbox are but if the bounty system is to ever work it must be made so that people cant collect on their own bounties. if you have an idea that would stop people from being able to collect their own bounties im more than willing to hear it
have you read the proposal? Because if you have you should know that thats the main point about it. Otherwise please point me to the part which was unclear to you. a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
323
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
added examples to the proposal. thanks to el alasar! a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
323
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
a few comments to the comments ;)
skills influencing payout... yeah why not but thats just "tweaking" I only intended to highlight the core idea - FIX of the issue. improvements are always possible, in fact the proposal is even more flexible as the current (broken) system IMO.
same for potential sec specific rules, e.g. certain amount of bounty makes your gcc and so forth. all nice things which COULD be considered but are not the FIX to the problem, they are "nice to haves"
other idea was: ignore sec status on crime -> enables you to place bounty to someone which has GCC ... nice to have, gamedesigners should decide
Migeta wrote:hmm i gues this coud be a beter idea... where is the advantage/FIX? a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
361
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 02:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
epic bump out of nowhere a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
502
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 15:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
bumped, so it can't jump a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
562
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 15:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
same idea here (but it takes only the clone costs into the formula) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=745844 a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
573
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 18:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
thanks for bumping fellow spaceship pilots, soon-to-be bounty hunters or hunted people! a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
579
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 12:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Overs wrote:I think Blenator's idea works. Interesting how it mimics npc pirate bounties.
Any thoughts about making the bounty system part of the contract system? this would be an awesome extension. I fully support it, however, i believe we firstly need a solid foundation before we can add such things. I mean.. we all know the current system is broken - it does not work as intended. Adding features to a broken system will cause more problems as its worth.
e.g a few thoughts (based on an eve-style bounty system): - shiptype specific contracts: kill this guy in his tengu and i double the reward from my wallet - corp contracts: 10m per hulk/pirate/enemy/whatever, i do not care under what circumstance - or just: look, i really want to have this guy killed in an expensive ship - killrights transfer... but this one is complicated to do right
contracts would have to work like that: - you upload an advertisement - a few people want to sign the contract - its now your responsibility to check the people and decide if they can sign (alt alarm!) - if they sign they can hunt. They should get a special overview icon so that they look cool and the victim has a chance to run. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
579
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 14:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
the guy who did set the contract up can decide who signs the contract (e.g he has to sign after that). As i said its his responsibility to check the hunter if he is valid. e.g not an alt. Its more player controlled this way. The normal eve-style system will still work of course. This is only an *optional* add-on to that.
This allows to have payouts which are larger as the ship/pod value to add additional rewards to encourage specific hunters to get the job done faster. edit: If you put put too much on his head... you increase the risk that the victim will put a lot of effort to set up a alt hunter - but that would be a typical eve scam, thats something else as bounty system exploit ;)
current contract system won't be sufficient since it does not support this bi-directional contract signing (like a handshake). It is to anonymous for that task. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
580
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 16:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:Someone will make a gambling establishment and a char with its name and put 500M bounty on it. Someone will make alt for scamming in Jita and bounty will be placed on his head.
and where is the problem? Its a isk sink, nobody would be able to profit. Thats why nobody would do this just get a bounty, since the scamer would not be able to benefit from it. I believe you did not understand the proposal.
@Monty placing bounty on bad people is the point of bounty. If you have a low sec status you will have to live with that while having fun shooting people. Since you are into pvp anyway its even a good way to have more pvp if you have a bounty on your head..
its like forbidding highsec wardecs since you can grief people a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
580
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 17:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Monty Kvaran wrote:Bienator II wrote: its like forbidding highsec wardecs since you can grief people
Highsec wardecs are a two way street. While the deccer usually has an advantage, the target can effectively fight back if they so choose, or just evade the dec. Its not really part of this thread, but I have no problem with a bounty hunter model, where bounties and bounty hunters can freely shoot each other. I do object to proposals that allow a bounty to be shot without any way for the bounty to proactively defend themselves.
evading decs is just another indicator for a broken system ;) but thats off topic :P
ESBS is simply about fixing the bounty system. It does not change aggression mechanics at all. Why do you mean that the guy with the bounty has no way to defend himself? He has a low sec status and a bounty. Thats it basically.
Current situation: low sec status and a secondary wallet a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
580
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 17:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:@Bienator
I'm more in favor of contract kill system. It's actually possible now, but without actual contract system, so you must rely on the other party honoring the agreement.
Simply I issue contract for killing someone. I may also put into contract that I will reimburse up to 200M or other amount of damages to mercenaries due to Concord if they're successful. I would be able to demand damage of certain ISK amount, or podding etc.
The contracts wouldn't advertise in CQ anymore, as they aren't bounties.
contracts are nice. I like them ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=797668#post797668 ). However, bounties are a nice democratic (lol) way to express that somebody should lose a few ships ;)
the first does not exclude the second.
However: killing someone in an empty clone is meaningless in eve. Thats why the contract extension could benefit from the fixed bounty system.
edit: see it this way: - kill contracts work with everyone - bounties only with those with a low sec status (you know... no risk no fun) a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
595
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 18:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Not really crazy about this idea.
Fundamentally, you don't have to undock to play the game, and the current bounties on people are basically to be at the top of the most wanted list (Eve Online Hold Em) puts a ton of their characters with 500m+ bounties to just advertise their service.
How do you plan to stop the most wanted list from being an advertisement board as well?
by spending a dev hour a week to go through the top 20 and block all bots.
seriously, do you really think this is the main issue of the bounty system? to have spam in the wanted list?
and as already mentioned in this thread the contract killer system would be a nice extension to the fixed bounty system. edit: a corpose means nothing in eve, only ISK loss means something a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
616
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 15:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
well, i've read somewhere that devs read this forum section from time to time. Thats actually what i wanted to reach - I know that they can't answer here.
I am not a big fan of all the CSM stuff. If you like to take it over and post to the AH... just go ahead and link back to this thread as origin. (feel free to copy stuff from here)
Just make sure to keep it concise to tell the core of the eve-like bounty system mechanics. All the contract, auto-outlaw, bribery nice-to-haves are cool but are optional, additional features. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
649
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
ah. just wanted to mention that the planed new war mechanics seem to incorporate ship/cargo costs to calculate the war "progress" (fanfest war mechanics session). This is also a basic requirement for the eve-like bounty system... a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
665
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 15:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Altair Raja wrote:Read the first post and most of the first page, Like the idea as a whole with few tweaks here n there. would just like to add that you shouldn't be able to claim a bounty you place yourself. why? a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
726
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 02:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
well. first you can't just give anybody bounties. The sec status restriction remains. So all this could do is to make from an cirminal an outlaw. Secondly you wouldn't get all your money back by killing his drake (partial payouts). Is that to brutal? It probably is. So lets mark that as bad idea :) a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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