If you want changes, you'd likely be better off posting in the test server forum where it might get read by a dev.

you're missing the point, if PI is expanded into a widespread and competitive market, suddenly justifying installing and fighting over the newly available tax revenue can become a reality.

Right now theres too few opportunities to actually create a sizeable tax revenue spread across many tens of thousands of planets.

So POCOS are not a good investment for Null mega alliances but could be worth it to smaller alliances/ renters. Working as planned.

You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!

We are monitoring this and many other threads, I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.

Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.

Best regards
Omen

From the devblog thread, the wiki page listing the new base tax values is up:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

I'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months.

Right now lowsec PI is less profitable than nullsec (including wormholes), however is easily raidable by the large alliances.

Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes.

On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights.


I'm not sure what this means

putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax.

This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable.

Read the dev blog, the taxes are set by CCP, but they're designed to fluctuate with the market.

[quote=pmchem]
Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium.

Well ya better start getting defensive about this 'feature' as it just another heavy handed attempt by CCP to get folks into the low/null sec PvP.

This KILLS the hi-sec ONLY corps who want PoS's for production/RP/whatever...now its low-sec/null PI where you will inevitability be engaged in PvP and have to defend of take over a POCO(s).

Please revise this change or explain how you CCP see this change IMPROVE gameplay for ALL and that it is simply not just a forcing PvP lowsec/null issue if you want a PoS that doesn't bankrupt you just exporting materials to keep your PoS running.

If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.)

and look a this, a goon not calling the empire dwellers pubbies for once ...

what else has CCP fixed in Crucible?

as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ.

As a solution, I would suggest allowing skills and/or CONCORD standing to play a role in calculating tax rates when using High Sec COs. We already have the ability to reduce sales taxes through skills and reprocessing taxes by improving our standing with NPC corps.

I think that would depend on how much it reduces the taxes. By 10% at level V? Probably not a big deal. A combination of skills + standing that cuts tariffs by 15%? Could be interesting, a reward for keeping high sec status. The skill would have to only apply to NPC-owned COs.

More than one alliance has recently released information supporting claims against goonswarm and Mittani that the chairman used his foreknowledge of the upcoming expansion to position goonswarm in position to line it's pockets at the expense of other players via the new changes to PI.

How is this ethically different then previous abuses such as the T20 affair which mired the former Band of Brothers alliance in controversy?

Do you feel that goonswarms current flooding of the eve online forums with dismissive, even derisive and insulting, comments on any opposition to the new PI arrangement hurt or help your efforts to bring all of eve under the unified heel of goonswarm?

What's your position of the in-game deletion by CCP that several of your alliance mates have proposed should be done to characters belonging to rival alliances such as TEST who have dared raise questions about the legitimacy of Mittani's own admitted intent to profit heavily at the expense of players in low and high sec? Do you feel that such an exercise of influence with CCP would damage goonswarms claims of being a legitimate alliance?

So there has been a tremendous amount of complaining about the new tax scheme implemented by CCP with regards to Planetary Interaction and Custom Offices. To some extent I can understand it; nobody likes paying taxes. As an economist I can go on ad nauseam about deadweight loss, reduced output, higher prices and so forth that taxes engender, but IGÇÖll save you from that coma inducing boredom.

However, it does seem to me that there is a bit too much whining and crying from the masses over this. With the changes of crucible we have seen PI prices head sharply upwards. So much so, that the increase in taxes are vastly offset by the increase in prices.

Consider an operation that produces 300,000 noble, base, and heavy metals and 300,000 non-chiral structures. This is refined down to 2,000 units each of precious, reactive and toxic metals and chiral structures. These are exported from the mining planet and imported to the production planet to make robotics at a cost of 600,000 isk (400,000 for the export and 200,000 for the import, for simplicity assume the prior cost here was 1/20 of this, or 30,000 isk).

Now those 2,000 units are eventually turned into 75 robotics and exporting this costs 525,000 isk. Last time I looked at Jita prices, probably out of date, these were selling for 80,000/robotics. That translates into 6,000,000 in revenues. After taxes you make 10,350,000 -> 4,875,500 isk. Prior to Crucible and the run in PI prices, let say September, youGÇÖd get maybe 50,000/robotics with vastly lower taxes or around 4,875,500 -> 3,693,750 isk. In other words, the price increases as a result of Crucible has been, at least for now, a 32% increase in your PI profits. Sure it would be nice if taxes were merely a 10th of what they are at now. Yeah your returns would be even higher, but it isnGÇÖt nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.

So please quit PI if the tax issue sends you into a nerd rage. I for one thank you for reducing the supply on the market and helping to increase prices and drive up my profit margins. Will PI prices come back down? Maybe. With the higher prices some marginal POSGÇÖs might be torn down reducing demand. With the higher prices and the use of POCOs in null & low security and wormhole space, more people might enter in those areas thus increasing the supply. The long run impact though is not clear. It is an empirical question and I donGÇÖt think anyone out there has done the required analysis yet to figure out where the price will end up. So I plan on sitting back and enjoying the ride.

I don't see any other alliance posting on any thread on this subject on this board but you.

I guess there's lotsa good points put up in these 13 pages.... TL;DR past page 3 for me.

Incursions are sick isk

Yep, the numbers were screwy. The market has actually adjusted nicely.

Strange, I'm making millions per planet per day on all of my characters doing PI in high sec on factory planets. With you saying if you don't use POCO's you loose money it seems I'm breaking your rule.

MAYBE hes bad or maybe the other dudes lieing like you usually do?

Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....