| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

Lilliana Stelles
1208
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know this has been brought up before, but it's not yet on the list of common proposals. It usually gets shot down due to stupid arguments and people thinking it doesn't make sense. These are usually people who don't know alot about stuff.
I also know this idea will have mixed reception. Many people feel that limited damage types are a balancing factor of lasers. Or they consider it a trade off for having "unlimited ammo". But that's not really the case. Lasers do have to change out crystals, and they use an inordinate amount of cap. So with that being accepted, lets look at how kinetic/explosive lasers would actually work.
From wikipedia: "Laser ablation is the process of removing material from a solid (or occasionally liquid) surface by irradiating it with a laser beam. At low laser flux, the material is heated by the absorbed laser energy and evaporates or sublimates. At high laser flux, the material is typically converted to a plasma. Usually, laser ablation refers to removing material with a pulsed laser, but it is possible to ablate material with a continuous wave laser beam if the laser intensity is high enough."
And for the nerds out there: https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
From this we can already see the balancing factor of a kinetic/explosive laser: higher capacitor use. On top of this, we could add a shorter range and potentially more crystal damage.
Here's some tentative stats I drew up.
T2 Ablative L Adapted from a standard multifreqency crystal, this crystal has variable focusing properties, controlled directly by the ship's computer. By analyzing the optical properties of enemy hulls, the crystal can be adapted to ensure that the majority of the energy from the laser is absorbed into the material, with minimal energy escaping as reflected light. The downside to this is that the laser is almost completely ineffective against shields. The delicate crystalline structures used in the manufacture of this advanced crystal degrade with use, eventually causing it to shatter. 50% Reduced Optimal Range 30% Reduced Falloff Range 25% Increased Capacitor Use Note: This ammunition can only be used by large tech level II Pulse Lasers.
EM damage: 0 Thermal Damage: 5 Kinetic Damage: 30 Explosive Damage: 15 Volatility: 100% Volatility damage: .00050 hp
T2 Concussive L Adapted from a Veldspar mining crystal, the Concussive laser crystal is an early prototype weapon designed specifically for breaking apart chunks of tritanium from the hulls of ships and structures. The extremely high energy energy of this laser requires it to use considerably more capacitor, and greatly reduces the effective focusing range. The delicate crystalline structures used in the manufacture of this advanced crystal degrade with use, eventually causing it to shatter.
75% reduced optimal range. 25% Increased Capacitor Use Note: This ammunition can only be used by large tech level II Beam Lasers.
EM damage: 0 Thermal Damage: 15 Kinetic Damage: 5 Explosive Damage: 28 Volatility: 100% Volatility damage: .00050 hp Not a forum alt.-á |

Daoden
The Scope Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
the fact that these are T2 crystals and would degrade over is why ill say yes to this, although im not sure about the optimal range reduction, perhaps making a blance for better range and less damage so it isnt only usefull at short range so sniper fits can at least make some use of these. |

Lilliana Stelles
1208
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Daoden wrote:the fact that these are T2 crystals and would degrade over is why ill say yes to this, although im not sure about the optimal range reduction, perhaps making a blance for better range and less damage so it isnt only usefull at short range so sniper fits can at least make some use of these.
I based these off of the short range variants, with very slightly less total damage. A long range variant could also work. Not a forum alt.-á |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
if lasers ever do other damage types, hybrids need to be changed as well. and projectiles need a short range high damage kinetic ammo. and caldari need to get boosts to omni damage and scrap the kinetic damage bonuses.
in fact, **** it. one race, one line of ships that only have one weapon. it does one type of damage and there are no shields, armour and structure, only HP's.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Lilliana Stelles
1208
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:if lasers ever do other damage types, hybrids need to be changed as well. and projectiles need a short range high damage kinetic ammo. and caldari need to get boosts to omni damage and scrap the kinetic damage bonuses.
in fact, **** it. one race, one line of ships that only have one weapon. it does one type of damage and there are no shields, armour and structure, only HP's.
The point isn't to overbalance the game. As these would do less damage and be harder to keep cap stable, it's effectively the same as the caldari kinetic bonus, except in this case it comes in the form of a detriment to unfavored damage types.
The point here is to give amarr players more options and to not restrict and limit engagements against amarr players. You shouldn't be able to guarantee the fight against them simply by fitting thermal/em hardeners. Not a forum alt.-á |

Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3233
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think EM damage still needs to be a primary component., and there definitely shouldn't be any explosive damage. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
the same way u can guarantee a fight against gal and caldari with thermal and kinetic?
and u mitigate a significant amount of, ill say potential, minmatar damage by tanking exp, kin.
ur assuming EM and Thermal are the worst damage types. A lot of ppl will say Kinetic is the worst damage type, and thats not even strictly true. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Lilliana Stelles
1208
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:the same way u can guarantee a fight against gal and caldari with thermal and kinetic?
and u mitigate a significant amount of, ill say potential, minmatar damage by tanking exp, kin.
ur assuming EM and Thermal are the worst damage types. A lot of ppl will say Kinetic is the worst damage type, and thats not even strictly true.
Since when can you mitigate minmatar damage by tanking explosive/kinetic?
The three most common types of minmatar ammunition: Phased Plasma, EMP, and fusion, are Thermal, EM, and explosive. Not a forum alt.-á |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
T2 bro EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Lilliana Stelles
1210
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:T2 bro
Half of which (hail and quake) are almost completely useless. Hence why people carry republic fleet EM/Therm ammo. Not a forum alt.-á |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5116
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:the same way u can guarantee a fight against gal and caldari with thermal and kinetic?
and u mitigate a significant amount of, ill say potential, minmatar damage by tanking exp, kin.
ur assuming EM and Thermal are the worst damage types. A lot of ppl will say Kinetic is the worst damage type, and thats not even strictly true. Since when can you mitigate minmatar damage by tanking explosive/kinetic? The three most common types of minmatar ammunition: Phased Plasma, EMP, and fusion, are Thermal, EM, and explosive.
The reason for the "extra flavors" of projectile ammunition is because projectiles operate primarily in falloff range (due to their low optimal range relative to other weapon systems) and have a relatively lower damage modifier compared to blasters (which blasters use to compensate for their extremely short optimal and falloff range)... so the "on-paper" damage of projectile weapons is usually much less.
I agree with Daichi Yamato... if you are going to harp about Amarr not having damage type selection then you need to revisit ALL the other races that are equally constrained to their specific damage types (even with drones... it's either Gallente, Minmatar, Curator, or GTFO... even in PvE).
As for that comment about people setting their ships up to specifically counter the EM and Thermal damage that lasers deal... that's just being hyperbolic. It is theoretically possible, yes (as it would be for all ship types minus Minmatar)... but almost all PvP ships fit omni-resistances because you almost NEVER encounter a a single ship type (and you would be stupid to assume you would). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
166
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
One of the factors that balances the advantages of lasers is the fact that they can only deal a set two damage types. Same goes for hybrids and somewhat less so for missiles. What you propose dramatically favors lasers over any other weapon system in the game without doing anything to compensate the rest and further reduces diversity in the game by making everything the same.
No, I don't like the idea. |

Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
228
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm extremely dubious about adding damage selectability to lasers, particularly if it swings the damage type away from EM. Remember that lasers 'reload' instantly... so if you were able to pick and choose damage types, they'd be way more flexible than missiles. And selectable damage is actually the one thing missiles are supposed to be best at.
Really, the advantages of selectable damage are so great that I can't see this happening without also invoking a general nerf to lasers, and I don't feel that nerf is needed. |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1303
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:T2 bro Half of which (hail and quake) are almost completely useless. Hence why people carry republic fleet EM/Therm ammo.
i like hail
ppl use faction ammo for general use. but hail is still good for face-brawling a pinned opponent. with T2 being specialised, this makes sense. quake on the other hand, i agree. specialisation is one thing, but a dessie orbiting a battleship might be a bit too specialised. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Lilliana Stelles
1210
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: As for that comment about people setting their ships up to specifically counter the EM and Thermal damage that lasers deal... that's just being hyperbolic. It is theoretically possible, yes (as it would be for all ship types minus Minmatar)... but almost all PvP ships fit omni-resistances because you almost NEVER encounter a a single racial type (and you would be stupid to assume you would).
It's been a while since I've been in nullsec blobs, but last time I was down there it was always one doctrine against another: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/engagement.php?id=16942427#involvedPilots
Dunno how much that's changed but an army of drakes against an army of amarr battleships will end up with both sides fitting specific hardeners only.
Also, let's not forget highsec duels, where I can fit specific hardeners and then only pick fights with ships that have bonuses to those same damage types. Not a forum alt.-á |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1303
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
agreed, lets balance all pvp around that EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Lilliana Stelles
1210
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:agreed, lets balance all pvp around that
That's not what I'm suggesting. Rather, I'm suggesting a way to add an element of unpredictability into doctrine vs. doctrine and 1 vs 1 involving lasers. Not a forum alt.-á |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5117
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Which can then be countered by bringing in something other than laserboats and kinetic missile spewers. Which can then be counter-countered, and counter-counter-countered, and so on, and so forth. Working as intended. Such metas/doctrines are organically penalized for homogenized fleet types and thus encouraged to be more "mixed."
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Also, let's not forget highsec duels, where I can fit specific hardeners and then only pick fights with ships that have bonuses to those same damage types. Which pretty much sums up why I thought formalized duels would never be able to teach anyone about PvP (despite what its proponents said). Changing a whole system of balance to make this one thing work "better" just doesn't seem worthwhile. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |

Lilliana Stelles
1210
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
I don't necessarily disagree with you. But duels are part of the game now, and iteration on established features is important. I don't particularly care for over-balance, but I want to see new variations on existing situations. And players will find ways to add variance to a situation regardless of ammunition type. This is why you see occasional 1400's on an abaddon or beam lasers on a rokh. And that is always an option that comes with its own disadvantages.
But why should I have to do something so unusual, when that could be built into the ammunition, penalty and all? This ammunition would encourage players to experiment, without making them use fits that make everyone go "wat". Not a forum alt.-á |

Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
156
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Great idea; far more ships armor tank in pvp than shield. Scorch does 80% EM damage.
Amarr / Gal / two thirds of minmatar armor tank. Caldari / one third minmatar shield tank. |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5117
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:But why should I have to do something so unusual, when that could be built into the ammunition, penalty and all? Because no ship should be able to "do everything" without making a clear-cut trade-off? Or how about "preserving racial flavor/damage promotes people to try out different ships and tactics?"
And pro-tip: there is no such thing as "unusual fits"... there are simply fits that work for their intended purpose and those that don't. Never be above fitting your ship "special" if it will work (note: the Artillery-Abaddon doctrine was done more for alpha-strike capabilities on a heavily tanked ship than for using different damage types). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |

Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
156
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:One of the factors that balances the advantages of lasers is the fact that they can only deal a set two damage types. Same goes for hybrids and somewhat less so for missiles. What you propose dramatically favors lasers over any other weapon system in the game without doing anything to compensate the rest and further reduces diversity in the game by making everything the same.
No, I don't like the idea.
Wrong.
Blasters and AC's both utterly destroy laser tracking; ie. brawling with lasers will lose to AC's or blasters all else being equal.
Lasers are only superior to other weapon systems at range, they lose every other category. |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5117
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Kaerakh wrote:One of the factors that balances the advantages of lasers is the fact that they can only deal a set two damage types. Same goes for hybrids and somewhat less so for missiles. What you propose dramatically favors lasers over any other weapon system in the game without doing anything to compensate the rest and further reduces diversity in the game by making everything the same.
No, I don't like the idea. Wrong. Blasters and AC's both utterly destroy laser tracking; ie. brawling with lasers will lose to AC's or blasters all else being equal. Lasers are only superior to other weapon systems at range, they lose every other category. Then perhaps you should... *gasp* ... use lasers at range where blasters and ACs can't reach or damage you very well! Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |

Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
255
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
**** no.
The different turret types all have their own individual advantages and disadvantages. Lasers have solid damage and insane damage projection coupled with the instant ammo swap. They compensate for this by being limited to EM and thermal damage and relatively low tracking at close ranges.
Give them the ability to swap damage types on top of these advantages and what the hell is the point of using anything else? This would leave hybrids as the only turret system incapable of swapping damage type and that opens a whole new can of balance worms.
More to the point: why do lasers need this exactly? They work well within their current niche. If you don't like being restricted on damage type then use projectiles or missiles, just don't cry when you have to deal with the disadvantages that come with those weapons as well. |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1305
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 23:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Phaade wrote:
Wrong.
Blasters and AC's both utterly destroy laser tracking; ie. brawling with lasers will lose to AC's or blasters all else being equal.
Lasers are only superior to other weapon systems at range, they lose every other category.
what?...unranged? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2125
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 00:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:(stuff)
"Ablation" is simply removing material from a surface by some form of erosive action (mechanical chipping, vaporization, corrosion, etc.).
So if you wanna get down to it ... laser turrets are vaporizing the hull/armor (hence your target losing HP). They simply overload shields.
No need for any special new ammo or anything ... and that's before we get into the crazy of Lasers doing anything other than EM/Thermal.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4461
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 00:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ammo concepts need a full redesign. Lasers the most, but the rest as well.
Oh, and drop cap use for lasers across the board. It's the only weapon system to have multiple drawbacks, including that it takes a penalty beyond the usual tradeoff of: "damage, application or, range". "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|

Kal Ashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 00:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Blaze
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=12812
Lux
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=12832
|

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1222
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 00:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Since real world concepts got referred to in here, the concept of anti missile lasers is based on kinetic kills. Remember light operates as both a wave & a particle. So lasers are shooting a bunch of particles at light speed at their target. When they impact they actually do have a real kinetic effect. Also refer to solar sails for further evidence that light has a kinetic component.
That said, balance wise, I'm not sure lasers need different damage types. They do need what Kaarous was saying about a general cap use drop since they were originally designed with a far greater DPS advantage than they have now. |

Lilliana Stelles
1210
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 01:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nifty. I had no idea something like this was already in the database. Added to OP.
Edit: Lux makes no sense. It's a small crystal that fits in a large turret. Not a forum alt.-á |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |