As I've said prior, its not about nerf/buff, its about increasing the number of differences between hulls.

Beams are a higher DPS and longer optimal range weapon system than arties so it makes perfect sense that a NM does more damage at long range than a mach.

With arties being alpha weapons why should they have an advantage in both burst and sustained combat?

Are you seriously arguing that the mach needs a buff because it nightmare is better than the mach at ONE thing? If the Mach could out dps the nightmare at 150km, then why would you ever not use a Mach?

You kind of miss the point of "balance". That's like NM pilots complaining that they can't match A Mach's DPS & tracking up close. (Hint - They can't.) There shouldn't be a "best" ship for everything, nor should all weapon systems have the same specs. The idea is to have ships which are viable for different roles, while still having some flexibility.

No, alpha is not something you trade against reload time. CYCLE time is long to keep high alpha from translating into insane DPS. Alpha is about taking targets off the field in single volleys if coordinated correctly while per your own numbers an NM fleet needs double the numbers to do the same for any particular target. This principle doesn't necessarily translate to all incursions, but then the ships shouldn't be balanced purely around that.

I'm not sure what combo of ammo & skills you are using for the DPS, but I show it higher for the Mach with comparable ammo.

885 EMP vs. 844 Multi with full skills. (4 HS/Gyros on each.) Faction, Hail vs. Conflag, they all work out higher on the Mach. Admittedly, it's not all applied unless you are really close. Throw in the extra drone DPS you can use on a Mach though... (Plus, your weapons don't eat cap.)

Tracking is .054 for a 800 vs .058 for a Mega pulse fit on a Nightmare. You are right, with a NM with 4 HS & two TE's vs the standard 4 Gyro, 3 TE setup on the Mach, the NM will track .00128 better.

To be fair you are comparing a tracking bonus to a falloff bonus and wanting changes so that the mach can be more like a nm is just silly.

If the mach had a tracking bonus instead of falloff bonus + maybe a few hull attr buffs to compensate for the reduced range, u'd have a ship uniquely different than the other pirates and the vargur, rather than a half baked nm clone

you beg to differ:

---

How is the Mach much different from other's hulls in the minmatar lines that cant fit 1400s without fitting modules / implants? If you want to argue that 1400s use too much powergrid, it should be in a thread about large artillery.
If you just to get your grid solely through implants that's up to you.

I didn't say serious, I said significant. It wouldn't just be a damage increase. It would be a heavier importance placed on a required skill, changes to fitting balance, changes in ammo consumption, change in fitting cost, potential effects on damage output and/or alpha. It's not unsolvable or something, it's just a lot of things that need to be accounted for and we don't think it's worth it in this case.

Machariel was OVERPOWERED before, now it's not so much. There is another. Learn to live with that. Thank you.

Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?

I am not rise but as Inc FC myself:

The sniper spots are already set up the way they are because of the ranges of machs, not the range of NMs, they will not change therefore the extra range is not as important as most people believe. Also the Mach is inferior for raw DPS purpose, everybody knows that, the reason you need them is to win contests with the huge alpha on armor and structure hits or to have ships that can enter the next pocket quicker, starting sooner to do dps and that doesn't change you still need a lot of machariel on grid if you want win contests in HQ fleets.

I do actually agree that the mach could use more power grid.

Sixty pages. Can we talk about something else now?

I, for one, am absolutely horrible at reading agility stats no matter what. Exactly how significant is the agility nerf on the Machariel? Objective statements only, if that's okay. I'm not looking for opinions. Opinions are how we get flame wars.

CCP Rise, is there any chance that a hard point can be added to the center underside of the Rattlesnake for the 5th launcher? (right under the lower "grill" in front would be perfect) That way the last turret appears below and on top of the Rattlesnake. Thanks.

The fitting room didn't change while an extra hardpoint was added.
Normally that would mean the PG needs to be increased, but it's still generous enough.
The CPU however cannot realistically accomodate a torp setup I would now be interested in fitting.

Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.

Please give an example for L4 usage against Serpentis for instance.

If I replace the Torps with Cruises, it's an OK fit.

Exp radius of 420 with two rigors and no TP, range 20km and no way of dictating range, or 33km and 580 Exp rad, all the while cap lasts 2.5 mins if the MWD is fit but off.

If you need dead space, faction and implants to find a workable fit, I'd say it's orrery damned obvious there are fitting issues.

Please enlighten us with these 'other pilots' with drones and missiles because only the TFI is in a similar position.

There's a gap between T2 and blue/green/rigged/implants needed.

And for gods sakes type full words, reading that nearly made my eyes bleed. It's not a text message, this isn't 1996

How is a fit linked that is not efficient because it cannot apply it's damage and has a cap life under 90 seconds proof of "dps tank ,fitability" or in fact anything related to L4s but that modules can be fit?


Would help for the sake of the discussion.

I dunno about the CPU issue really. There isn't a problem for a fleet buffer mode, it only really comes in when you do an ASB fit. Even so, a cruise ASB fit works with a CPU rig:

[Rattlesnake, Cruise ASB]
Internal Force Field Array I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

Garde II x2
Ogre II x2
Bouncer II x2
Warrior II x5

1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?

That is how you make a compelling argument Myrthiis, not "showing" a "PvE" fit that has no cap life, needs +5 implant, and has to fire on a capital ship (slight exaggeration) apply it's paper damage.

I'll prolly go with Co-Proc instead of DC for PvE + 3 rigors (and ofc different midslots).
That way it fits fair enough.

But still... having a ship that has too much of one resource and needs meta/faction/fitting mods for the other is a lot lopsided.
When trading 1000 PG for 10 CPU is considered fair...

Thanks, but what we need is less (not more) alpha in this game.

I'm pretty sure CCP wanted to avoid buffing it. (I was expecting a nerf, and have been quite content with an extremely mild one.) Without the fitting compromises, you could do some nasty things with a 1400MM Mach... (You can, even with them, actually.)

Poor Poor Machariel. Obviously the thing is terrible. That's why no one uses it for LVL 4s, incursions, or PVP. Right?

Tentatively, yes. Especially, if you're blitzing.

I would give it a strong-ish "yes" against missile boats, since gunships have the advantage due to torp/cruise damage and warp speed implants sharing slot six, and because missile boats need/require missile rigs, whereas the gunship is free to fit warp speed rigs.

OTOH the 6.2% advantage the 5.7 AU Mach has over the 3.5 AU Vargur may be equalized out by the Vargur's ability to loot and salvage.


For additional laughs, don't forget that the other pirate battleships (such as the Rattlesnake) warp at 2 AU/sec, so the level 4 Rattlesnake's DPS buff is undermined by its slooooooooow warp speed.

Good points and valid criticisms. My general frame of mind is that improved warp speed can improve level 4 running efficiency. I whitewashed/assumed many things in order to see if, all else being equal/unchanged, what potential impact would improving warp speed have. The numbers showed that warp speed could have a non-trivial impact on efficiency, so the trick as you pointed out, is how to make it work, (if it is possible/practical.)

Here's what I'm think in the context of level 4s in Minmatar space.
Guns: 918 DPS with 4km + 61km range. 0.06401 tracking. 1013 with two 5% damage implants. Berserkers add another 206 paper DPS.
Tank is 494 against Angels for 4m55s.
Warp speed is 5.1 AU/s with the rigs and a 10% warp speed implant. (It looks like the failheap EFT files didn't include the fact that warp speed rigs will be stacking penalized in the summer. *grumble*)
Speed: 1505 m/s with the MWD.
CPU is a bit tight, with 707.25 used out of 707.33.
EFT says the price is ~1.4B isk.

[Machariel, Summer Shield - Warp]
Co-Processor II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Gist C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive

800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
Auto Targeting System I

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Berserker II x4
Hobgoblin II x5

What about this?

I've always felt the powergrid requirements for the mach were a lot higher than fittings allowed for. Fitting an MWD, even a core version with lower PG requirements and 7x T2 1400's requires Advanced Weapons Upgrade 5, and a 6% PG skill hardwiring, AND a PG fitting module or rig to work.

Also the Vindi and Mach have more total slots than the other ships. And everyone hates the assymetrical turrts on the mach.

Heres a quick fix for them all:

6 turret slots : 7 total highslots instead of 8
Change Minmitar Battleship bonus from 5% to 10% per level.

---

With those changes, power grid is not such a huge concern, in fact you could probably even take a little away if you want. Also at level 4 battleship skills the damage is exactly the same a it is at level 4 now. Only at level 5 battleship skill do you get a very slight damage buff over level 5 today. You also bring total slots in line with the rest of the ships, AND now your turrets are symetrical.

It will also reduce ammo consumption, and if you talk to T2 800 pilots, thats not a bad thing. 800's are notorious for chewing through ammo really fast, and this helps with that also since you have 1 less turret shooting ammo per cycle.

Unlike an unfavorable "unfortunately it isn't going to happen."

7 highslots 7 turrets 7.5% damage bonus assumed to be a typo.

I would go with two T2 warp speed rigs on it and use the last slot for something else.