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I'm So Pretty
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
   |
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
- Increase the default speed of all mining barges by 200%.
Why?
Bumping is a valid mechanic and belongs in EVE, however the miners have a point in claiming there is simply no way for them to combat it. I can successfully bump any and every mining barge out of range besides an AB'd Skiff. I can do so consistently and indefinitely. That is not balanced. As a general statement there has to be a way to counter any action taken against you through your own counter gameplay. In it's current state the only way to counter being bumped is running away 8 systems so you can scream "harassment" to the GMs if they follow you.
With this change, all mining barges when fit with a 10MN AB could effectively avoid being bumped when piloted correctly. Those who are lazy, AFK and/or ignorant with their fittings could still be made victim. |
Nolen Cadmar
Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations
Surely You're Joking
166
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 12:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree with your point, but not your method. I'm not sure what the right way to combat bumping would be, but I don't believe this is it.
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3865379 |
HTC NecoSino
Blackstar Privateers
Disavowed.
73
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 12:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
As stated in numerous such threads:
Kill them.
Can't kill them? Hire someone else to kill them.
Don't want to be "mean"? Pay them to leave you alone.
Broke? Go to LS, better yields.
Scared of LS? Find a WH, no local, so nobody will know you're there, so no bumping. Oh, and they have all the ABC ores, too! |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1208
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 14:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:As stated in numerous such threads:
Kill them.
Can't kill them? Hire someone else to kill them.
Don't want to be "mean"? Pay them to leave you alone.
Broke? Go to LS, better yields.
Scared of LS? Find a WH, no local, so nobody will know you're there, so no bumping. Oh, and they have all the ABC ores, too!
you CANT just "hire someone to kill them"
its highsec 90% of the time, so the game mechanics insure even if you wardec they can do whatever the **** they want for 24 hours, then leave their corp, if they arent already in an NPC corp.
This is the one issue people keep searing isnt BUT IS an actual imbalance in highsec, a character in an NPC corp can do WHATEVER they want to ANYONE, and to even attempt to protect yourself against them requires you to already lose a ship to them, then hope next time you see them you able to dock up and switch to a ship to punish yourself with a suicide gank to MAYBE defend yourself.
characters that can just hop corps arent much better either.
But in all seriousness, JUST in highsec, consistent bumping for 5+ minutes should be considered grief-tactics, not legitimate gameplay, because its something that poses NO RISK to the aggressor, makes the target UNABLE to even play due to being bumped, and gives his gang all the time in the world to slowboat over for the gank. If you want to kill someone before they can run, use a scram.
Also, seriously, remove the ability for characters in NPC corps to take their weapons off green, that way, at least theres the illusion that you cna declare war on people ganking you with impunity. |
HTC NecoSino
Blackstar Privateers
Disavowed.
74
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 14:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
You must be new to Eve, then?
There are corps that roll new characters every so often. It takes about 2 weeks to train up for a ganking destroyer. These corps bring enough of these throw-away characters to gank whatever is harassing you, get concorded, lol and do it over until their sec status drops too low. Then they biomass and do it again. |
HTC NecoSino
Blackstar Privateers
Disavowed.
74
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 14:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oh, and PS: Bumping is an artform.
1 ship (my Tengu) kills 3 mining barges.. not once, but twice (the 2nd time I even got pods since I had a SeBo)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18087099
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=17778817
Surely I don't have 3 points? Nope, just 1 + bumping the other 2. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
530
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am sure those retrievers really gave you a fight.... 
Bumping may be an art, but it really needs to take relative mass into account. A ship that is so heavy it turns like a whale should not get bumped by something that much lighter so effectively. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1349
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 22:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm So Pretty wrote:however the miners have a point in claiming there is simply no way for them to combat it.
they lied
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1349
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 22:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote: JUST in highsec, consistent bumping for 5+ minutes should be considered grief-tactics, not legitimate gameplay,
if they dnt attempt to leave the belt and/or system i want them out of, i will bump them for more than 5 minutes. it most certainly should not be an exploit.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Eschelon Directive
Universal Consortium
60
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 22:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:You must be new to Eve, then?
There are corps that roll new characters every so often. It takes about 2 weeks to train up for a ganking destroyer. These corps bring enough of these throw-away characters to gank whatever is harassing you, get concorded, lol and do it over until their sec status drops too low. Then they biomass and do it again.
Bio massing a neg ten character to circumvent in game penalties is a bannable offence, you might get away with it but it only takes one report from one of your pissed off victims.
And living in HS with -10 sec status is easy anyway, it might as well not exists at all.
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if they dnt attempt to leave the belt and/or system i want them out of, i will bump them for more than 5 minutes. it most certainly should not be an exploit.
In one system no, but if you follow them around to other systems after they have made a reasonable attemt to get away from you this is already considered harassment according to the EULA right now. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
White Mountain Coalition
1294
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 22:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Try it again against a trio of tactical cruisers just like yours then ill congratulate you on your kill mail.
Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
532
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 22:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I'm So Pretty wrote:however the miners have a point in claiming there is simply no way for them to combat it. they lied
How? What can they do, mine harder?
I mean, I dont care about this beyind the silly of a small ship popping a big one around at will... But exactly how does a person fight this in a mining ship?
Its not a case of bring friends... This is one dude bumping another dude. Maybe fit a microwarp of your own? Does that work? Can you actively pilot around this? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
5212
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 23:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Can you actively pilot around this?
You actually can. it just requires some finesse.
Some things that helped my miner against bumpers...
- a tight orbit around the rock you are mining. It's quite hard to bump something that is moving... especially in a tight orbit around a larger object. This also has the added benefit of throwing a wrench into suicide ganks. It's not much... but it could mean the difference between surviving in hull and barge parts everywhere.
- jamming yourself between a couple of rocks. This limits the angles they can bump you from as 'roids have notoriously large and somewhat unpredictable "contact radii." If you are bumped then you will often bump into the rocks yourself which dampens the original blow (and will sometimes jam you in even tighter).
- if bumped, use it to your advantage and align towards wherever you are being bumped towards. Then warp. Sometimes you'll have to angle your barge's vector just a bit off before a bump to get the right alignment.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
142
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 23:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
the answer (I regret to say) - devolves to alts online - train up an NPC alt, train skills for T1 - MWD, plates, (maybe overdrive injectors), minmatar cruiser - go bump him off your mining alt....
or alternatively
- pay someone else in local to do it for you
- ask one of your corpies to do it for you (at corp-rates)
- ask an OOC buddy to do it for you (who might even do it as a favour between friends)
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 23:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Using dotlan to find quieter systems instead of sticking to popular ones helps quite a bit, something I've never seen any industry-based corporation I've dealt with, personally, even attempt.
EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2025
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 00:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bumping is not a problem.
Feeling entitled to be exempt from interaction with others in EVE is the problem.
With regards to small ships bumping things with much higher mass, these ships are cruiser-sized or so say the rigs and fittings. I would chalk their poor handling up to sub-par maneuvering thrusters. Not that EVE ever makes specific mention or any acknowledgement of maneuvering thrusters. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
White Mountain Coalition
1294
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 08:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bigger ships should apply damage to smaller ships. That would take care of bumping.
Jita undock would need to change though.
Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
A T O N E M E N T
562
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 10:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Threads like this are pathetic. Just stop - you can always suicide gank and pod your bumper. Wardec mine in lowsec, null or wh space. Hardly a game breaking issue. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
533
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 10:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Actually... you are mining.
Someone could suicide gank and pod, counter bump, etc... but not your miner.
But that turns into requiring you to bring more people into a situation that was one guy bumping another guy, and what can the other guy do about it himself. Bring more people functions as a counter to just about anything but finding someone cloaked off grid.
The bumper is circumventing highsec restrictions against aggression, which given how often this happens and usually only to ships incapable of counter aggression themselves might need looking into, and the question I have is what can the miner himself do?
Apparently it's not impossible to wedge yourself in, and orbiting can reduce the issue as well. If that works well enough that the miner can continue mining at least half the time while playing joust with his aggressor, that's fair enough in my book.
A much larger issue should be bumping being used to prevent warping, apparently indefinitely. That should require tackle and aggression timers because it is blatantly a hostile act leading up to a kill. |
Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm.
Black Flag Society
28
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 12:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Two rubberized coatings: regular and superball. |
HTC NecoSino
Blackstar Privateers
Disavowed.
77
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 12:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Try it again against a trio of tactical cruisers just like yours then ill congratulate you on your kill mail.
I wasn't bragging that I killed 3 fricken bargers, I was stating that the tactic has its place, such as tackling 3 ships with only 1 point. If you check my killboard, I have much more notable and impressive kills. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
536
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Try it again against a trio of tactical cruisers just like yours then ill congratulate you on your kill mail. I wasn't bragging that I killed 3 fricken bargers, I was stating that the tactic has its place, such as tackling 3 ships with only 1 point. If you check my killboard, I have much more notable and impressive kills.
Actually, I feel that tackling 3 ships with one point to be horrendous, a borderline exploit.
I can only hope this is because the ships were poorly piloted and not because bumping is really that effective on a competant pilot. Tackle should require points and aggression timers. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
707
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kasife Vynneve wrote:Two rubberized coatings: regular and superball.
Actually a great idea for a module everywhere, person bumping you gets a major suprise.
Well it is a defence?
Forget regular, go for the full superball, Actions and consequences, bump a miner or other ship and he may bounce you 50km instead. He can choose to fit for yield or to avoid bumpers. Use the warping to the centre of an asteroid mechanic and watch him bounce off at high speed!
Seems a balanced choice.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
HTC NecoSino
Blackstar Privateers
Disavowed.
77
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:HTC NecoSino wrote:I wasn't bragging that I killed 3 fricken bargers, I was stating that the tactic has its place, such as tackling 3 ships with only 1 point. If you check my killboard, I have much more notable and impressive kills. Actually, I feel that tackling 3 ships with one point to be horrendous, a borderline exploit. I can only hope this is because the ships were poorly piloted and not because bumping is really that effective on a competant pilot. Tackle should require points and aggression timers.
One instance was 2 pilots, 3 ships. The other was 1 pilot, 5 ships, 2 got away.
This was in WH space, there are no timers 
Bumping is really effective against a competent pilot, and any WH'er does well to learn how to do it right. IE: Bumping a ship off of a wormhole to prevent it from escaping, bumping a ship to prevent it from warping, bumping a ship away from a carrier to prevent it from getting reps, etc.
It's part of the game, it's part of life. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
538
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 15:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:HTC NecoSino wrote:I wasn't bragging that I killed 3 fricken bargers, I was stating that the tactic has its place, such as tackling 3 ships with only 1 point. If you check my killboard, I have much more notable and impressive kills. Actually, I feel that tackling 3 ships with one point to be horrendous, a borderline exploit. I can only hope this is because the ships were poorly piloted and not because bumping is really that effective on a competant pilot. Tackle should require points and aggression timers. One instance was 2 pilots, 3 ships. The other was 1 pilot, 5 ships, 2 got away. This was in WH space, there are no timers Bumping is really effective against a competent pilot, and any WH'er does well to learn how to do it right. IE: Bumping a ship off of a wormhole to prevent it from escaping, bumping a ship to prevent it from warping, bumping a ship away from a carrier to prevent it from getting reps, etc. It's part of the game, it's part of life.
My concern isnt so much about its use, but that it is blatantly aggressive behavior. The aggression timers may not matter in a WH, but they do in high sec, and buming will work as well there as anywhere.
If bumping can be used as tackle that effectively then it should be fixed or punishable by CONCORD as the aggression it clearly is. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1353
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 15:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
How? What can they do, mine harder?
fly their ship for starts. it sucks to give away the methods that give me a competitive edge, but seeing as its u, with most useful first:
- when ice mining (which is horrendously AFK friendly) u can just manual pilot to within 200-300 metres of an ice cube and then 'orbit at current distance'. never been bumped since i started doing that and it is still just as afk friendly. and thats in a fat slow mack, not a whizzy skiff.
- when in a big rock belt, move ur barge into the rocks. u dnt need much room to align to warp, but a bumper needs loads of room and a clear path to bump u. Orbiting whilst doing this adds extra difficulty to the bumper.
- Fly a skiff
- LEAVE. u have no right to the belt ur at, and anyone who is willing to put forth the effort to prevent u from mining there deserves to have it more than u, unless u put in the effort to fight back. Or u can just move to another belt or system.
- Make ur barge more mobile. AB's dnt really do anything, but NANO's will. Changing direction at speed with a MWD is very difficult. Manually pilot ur ship to change course once hes picked up some speed and he wont easily match u. i've missed retties with a stabber because they've suddenly moved or changed direction.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
539
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
I get all that.
The part that is most disturbing is that you can apparently be bumped to prevent your leaving, at least long enough for you to watch 2 other ships just like you die. If they are trying to leave, they should be able to in the absence of actual tackle and the aggressor suffering whatever comes of being flagged for it.
I have no pity for someone afk getting bumped to wherever. The issue comes in if bumping can be used aggressively (tackle is aggression), without suffering the consequences of aggressive action in that area (concord, sec status). |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1356
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 18:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
theres no way to determine if a bump is intentionally tackling someone, or if they just flew into each other accidentally.
Bumping is a tactic i personally love. it always looks good when u pull something off with a skillful bump. It must stay in the game. It is also a point of pilot skill that makes bumping effective or ineffective. it must never require anything more than a ship and its pilot (i.e. i dnt want a mod requirement).
Between that and allowing ppl to accidentally fly into each other without inciting CONCORDian rage. i think we have the best possible system in affect right now
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
148
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 18:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
it also means I can bump my buddy in a marauder (bastion mode) to an accel gate if he's only a k or so off.... since the rats love a marauder in bastion
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
540
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 19:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:theres no way to determine if a bump is intentionally tackling someone, or if they just flew into each other accidentally.
Bumping is a tactic i personally love. it always looks good when u pull something off with a skillful bump. It must stay in the game. It is also a point of pilot skill that makes bumping effective or ineffective. it must never require anything more than a ship and its pilot (i.e. i dnt want a mod requirement).
Between that and allowing ppl to accidentally fly into each other without inciting CONCORDian rage. i think we have the best possible system in affect right now
It could be fixed by changing alignment to a warp drive spool up timer, which would also make some ships more vunerable to a fast tackler as aligning beforehand would no longer matter.
It could be allieviated by disallowing bumping in certain high traffick areas, like around stations and gates.
It could be fixed by only allowing a ship to bump or be bumped once every minute, which would allow tactical use and harrasment of miners, but not allow it to be used as tackle.
Bottom line, regardless of how cool, funny or useful you find it, if its being used in an aggresive manner, such as tackle without consequence of aggression, that aspect of it needs fixed.
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