Are you going to reimburse the skill points wasted on the scientific networking skill? Literally the only reason anyone trained it was to train it to 1 to copy and manufacture in a POS in the same system.

I get the horrible sensation that you think these changes are all good and positive. They are not. The reaction from industrialists that lead to all those abandoned towers will have serious negative effects on the market as well. What will you do when those of us who build things decide it's not worth it anymore and decide to say screw it, we're not building things? Will you just start seeding the market like on Singularity? These changes seem focused on driving up risk for poor return on the reward side. The inability to lock down and safeguard blueprints in a corporate hangar in a station means one thing, and one thing only: You're taking assets that we have spent years and years building, and giving us complete crap in return. Why even bother playing the game with changes like this?

BPOs are suppose to be like PLEX or rare items, they are investments. Literally no one who is remotely intelligent is ever going to use a POS for copying after this change. The risk is too extreme. Sure, I keep around 1 - 2B in materials in my manufacturing POS, but my 10 - 15B worth of BPOs will never ever be taken to a POS. Why would I ever make such a risk? Unless you bring the copy time on Advanced Labs down to something obscene like .10 multiplier or give 10x the copy yield, then NO ONE is EVER going to copy at a POS ever again.

Except that now the risk is very high while the reward is very low. Manufacturing was never a very rewarding gameplay feature.

what ones are worth more than like 20m isk besides supercaps

So an industrialist needs a spare corporation in reserve? I am not sure your suggestion addresses the problem.

The mentioning of Teams makes me want to have CREWS.

Risk free? What? Is your brain turned off or something?

- The pos alone is worth 8 billion+ (all faction stuff)
- I stand to lose a month worth of product to the tune of 20 billion if someone decides to blow it up.

I'm fine with -that- risk, but having to literally put ALL my eggs in that one easy to pop basket is completely unacceptable.

CCP, you do remember that you never ice mining for the email operators a few expansions ago, right?

**** people off by holding them in an unassailably large alliance... get a small tower for 60m, offline it. Costs you nothing and pisses anyone who wants it off. I thought that's what you guys specialize in

Let's see who CCP listens to:

1. One of the most famous, long term players in the game, who knows a thing or 2, or a million, about Eve industry.
2. A member of a group dedicated to ruining gameplay for as many as possible, and who is openly gloating over the changes.

More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.

Um.....look at my corp history. I have done all these things, and yeah, I do play a lot of Eve, or done it one time or another. So yeah, I can comment on the impact of these changes.

oh, and an aside, I am OK with venturing into low sec (FW zones, plus through the old PL staging area) to pick up BPC's. I always accepted that risk since I shut down my POS. But now the cost of copying is going way way up, and the risk remains the same.

No need to remove offline POSses. Allow players to shoot them without a wardec and they will clear them. Perhaps make attackers suspect, but keep concord out. Give players a chance, you can always remove POSses later if that doesn't work.

Why isn't the wardec solution sufficient?

It also dilutes rage....

No wonder CCP is sliding down hill - marketing continues to gain power

How does this in any way GÇ£endGÇ¥ highsec?

How do you know, unless someone on the CSM or CCP told you?
Why don't you give us the precise information, since you already know it and are making market moves to maximize profit?

This not some court of law.
This is a game, well, a hobby for many.

You want to punish people for not keeping up with the cesspool of forums or the dev's intent on turning this game completely into some Ayn Rand dystopia. By all means. I can't stop you. You are pl, which thrives on hurting others, so no surprise there.

Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY. There is no magical invisible person doing anything other than me. Sure, I can live with only copying from now on at stations, but if you are going to add scaling cost to invention and manufacturing at a POS on top of the fuel cost, then why would I bother having a POS at all? I will just JF to one of the 50+ stations that is under PL / BOT control and manufacture there. The JF fuel cost is negligible compared to the cost of maintaining a POS.

Topes used in 1 Rhea JDC V, JFC V, JF IV: +/- 7k Nitrogen Isotopes

Cost of 1 day for a medium POS: 9600 Nitrogen Isotopes

...and that is just the topes ALONE.


There is literally no reason for anyone with access to multiple null outposts to ever use a POS for invention or manufacturing after this change, unless the tax is stupid high.

A POS i.e. a Tower currently, is stupid i.e. poor almost to the point of senile AI and archaic basically for the simple reason being CCP have never updated them effectively and efficiently to keep pace with the rest of the game mechanics they have unleashed or modified the only update they received was the fuel blocks idea because the newbies couldn't get to grips with efficient use of the items we used before(so it was dumbed down) it seems as more newer players come on board the more babyish the mods become, soon no one will have to use his/her brain to play any more there will be less and less personal initiative and skill needed at doing things better than someone else. What happens in RL is our the ability to work out something most take as is, so you discover a tweak and work out for yourself how to work it better for yourself. It is becoming all to bland, sandbox pah! more like "Toy" box. a simple example was POS fuel prior to (fuel blocks), a canny POS owner could if he chose too, might, chance off lining certain modules or two to save on the Liq Oz and Heavy Water usages, That meant Taking Risk, a chance but could help balance your books on POS costs at certain times, that to me was an element in EVE that was good, your POS may have been at risk more but that did meet with Risk vs Gain concepts. That kind of Risk/chance taking took "balls" to do it, but it could be done if you needed to, now we have std fuel blocks, flat costs, flat choices lost risk taking for gain, lost initiative to the individual poorer quality game mechanics. and that is only one example.

I believe he means corp offices.

Common guys! Don't lie to us and don't lie to yourself!
All you want is JUST MAKE US TO BUY PLEX FOR REAL MONEY! Thats all. Just say it fair!

You want to make ships UNIQUE! When player fear to lose his ship!

Yes they want make us use this sh..t mush more!

Strictly, no. but assuming he's referring to a situation where it's preferential, and in that case it's for all intents and purposes relevant.

trust me our problem with office limits is far worse than yours, we would happily agree to infinite offices for all stations and outposts

From the dev blog...


Could you please define "anywhere?" Are POS still limited to available moons, or can we simply create a safe spot and anchor there? There is a problem with all the abandoned POS filling up available moons.

The question is: if the game I selected to play in this I believed be a sand box is to build and not destroy things, I have to change game? If I don't want do pvp than I have to change game?

I can see eve becoming a pure PvP universe so why not remove all the security zones now and get on with it?

Overall most the changes are "positive" even generous.

BUT POS compression arrays do NOT address the main hauling issues of miners in hi sec. You have already hauled ore from belt - whether to refine at station or POS or to sell or to compress. Hauling from belts or ore/ice anomalies to first unload is the primary miner's transportation issue everywhere a Rorqual is not practical.

Goon are stupid. Need I say more?

If it isn't that obvious for you till now, with countless rebuffs to every aspect in game I don't see reason to write wall of text describing what are they.

For a guy who spends most of his spare time suicide ganking miners in high sec, I'm surprised.

It doesn't surprise me but as you own large tracts of null you'd be very interested in making it more profitable from a production point of view and HS less so. You don't care all that much. You can take it or leave it. But until I've seen all of the dev blogs and got a broader view of exactly how everything is going to fit together, it's impossible to say whether any of us have a dog in this race or not.

Just remember that taxes change behaviour: You either go and try to find somewhere you'll get taxed less or you just stop doing the thing that's being taxed - you divest, so to speak. I might personally choose the latter. There's an optimal point beyond which an aspect of the game goes from being an interesting little hobby to a pain in the buttox. I don't know if CCP intend to cross that line with this expansion.

Guessing your coalition won't mind offering a good number of free systems for space in nullsec then for use of the stations that will become vastly more valuable right?

Just out of curiosity, with the requirements now removed for anchoring towers, will there be any form of compensation for those who had to previously grind their asses off to get the standings to anchor one? I agree with most everything in the blog, but that particular change seems like a shot at older players as much as a good change for newer players.

And your decade of carebearing in Deklein was intrerupted by... who? Most probably by Larry Forever ...

To be clear, I have never had a highsec tower myself, too much work. I'm merely questioning the decision to open up a game mechanic that players had previously sunk many hours of gameplay into. From reading the comments on this thread so far, that particular move seems to have ruffled a few feathers.

standings characters are still worth the most as traders. a 5 million SP trade character with high faction standings is worth a billion ISK per million SP (easy)... 5 billion ISK for a potentially brand-spanking-new character. besides, using a standings character to pump out a 150 million ISK corporation at an ideal rate of 4/month for a yield of 600 million ISK [which barely covers a PLEX and has for some time] is bad anyway.

Direct Dev Question:

Will you be releasing any of the other blogs on industry prior to fanfest? If so, what are the release dates?

Will you answer any more questions posed in the comments section prior to fanfest? It's been awfully quiet since #947 Posted: 2014.04.16 15:56

Is this current blog with the "wait and see" approach it employs merely a teaser designed to force us to purchase live streams to fanfest if we are unable to travel? This smacks of baiting.

in the past three years or so I've seen a trend of the CCP devs moving away from customer focused development and towards a forced predetermined play style. I can't help but think that this has something to do with taking on venture capital.

With each expansion it seem I keep reading dev blogs that say something along the lines of " so we noticed that players are doing XY and Z but we want them to do AB and C so here is our plan to force them to play their game our way"

Yea, noone ever bought the participation of a high standing character in his corp to deploy a pos, no interaction or gameplay to find here folks, move along.

I mean the way you are arging you could be arguing in favor of abolishing skill requirements on t2 mods or the prohibitive cost of capships...

Not everything that makes the game more streamlined is good, especially if its combined "we want players to do XYZ".

I mean what is the bottom line here, are you really interested in null being nerfed for the carebears a few years from now?

players have settled into niches that exploit and lubricate an antiquated system, at the expense of others.

Where do you see the big difference between skill requirement and standing mechanics?
A player with standing still benefits from the ability to set up another pos, moreover he can loose them ==> gameplay!

Didnt you just repeat the same assumption on what is the right gameplay in your opinion without adding anything new?

Way of avoiding the question...

Having a POS is no small thing and I believe it supposed to be difficult to have one.

There are hundreds of small corp descriptions where you can read that they enthusiastically plan to set up a POS, --- one day. Most of them will not manage. It is hard. Yet, it is one of the few things which are easier for a small dedicated corp than for a large one. And having a POS is one of the rare goals corps have in EVE.

Removing the standing requirement will "providing everybody with a POS", but it is also removing one of the few accomplishments for corps. The coolness factor will be gone. You can no longer proudly advertise that your corp has a POS because you did it!

Taking the Xmas money from your grandma to buy a plex, changing the ISK into a tower, training one day for anchoring, ---tada, POS! This is your idea of "new and fresh game play"?

And for those arguing that building up standing is a useless grind: some of us like flying missions. We do this even as a corp activity. It is fun doing this together and we help new members through their first steps flying L2 or L3. It is a way to learn about the necessary skills, about ships and basic tactics.

The alternative created by removing standings feels bland and removes an iconing accomplishment for corps. Do not do it.

tax reductions are corp standings.

also not entirely, it draws from which ever is higher

but its still a nerf to those that worked for the standings.

Plenty of backwater systems with little to no traffic that could be mined all day and night by a few people. And with local still being completely on in regular space, and 14 layers of alliance defenses (roams, intel, etc.) you can mine your brains out. But, valid point m8, unless you need the minerals to build something, easier to shoot stuff and refine.

To be fair Querns, there are a lot of neuts in highsec to sift through, whereas if they show up in Deklein as a non-blue, it's a safe bet they aren't there for the conversation about the weather..

Seems CCP is making great efforts to murder there baby with death designed by a thousand cuts , PVP all the way guys, if it moves shoot it.

Want more space, we will give you more space, odd they never noticed that the vast majority of 0.0 is unused currently, and of course if you do choose to go there to mine, we have an answer for that as well, it's called PvP...Heavily armed Player verses utterly unarmed Player but if your alert and have intel, we have the answer to that to, The good old hot dropping cloaked camper, that will put a stop to your game for the day, maybe you could try industry instead, but hang on a minute, we cannot have players actually doing anything constructive that will attract them in this game can we, enter stage right the dancing Nerf monsters singing the Spam song, forget that idea, Get out of here player, your not wanted in 0.0, begone back to Empire were you belong, Not much point of logging in at all except to change skills, Leave the great expanse of 0.0 to those huge Alliances and there roaming gangs of gankers but with not much mining going on and ratting getting nerfed as well, not much fun for them really, No one there you see, there all turtled up around there brand new ESS, That's ok, we can steal there ISK and kill the ESS and put a Cloaked Black Ops camper in system, PvP at it's very best, no Players, no chance of kills, win win win for you.

If you read that lot you might think I was bitter about all this but would you be surprised to learn that I am in no way bitter about it, I actually find it hilarious that CCP would indeed try to kill off EVE in this manner rather than just pulling the plug on it, instead allowing it's workforce to systematically destroy EVE simply because they failed to understand the player base and realise that it is not only the EVE economy that works just like real life.

There is a point when a person recognises the facts, if I do that then this will happen and everything I have done so far will be wasted and in the absence of incentive people do nothing, specifically they do not do what you predict they will do when you design changes in this game.

The small item known as incentive brings with it the thought that maybe CCP should consider there strategy with a little more thought, accept there has to be a reason to change something and when you do you should really take care to fully understand what will happen when you do, if it adds to or maintains the incentive factor for a player then that's ok, but if it detracts from that the results will cascade though EVE, and you will not get what you predicted, butterfly effect applies.

Look back at Plexing, you changed that, ostensibly to make it better in your view, result was that many players just stopped doing it at all, no incentive you see, you added new sites, along with that childish Pac Man game and Ghost sites, result even less players wanted to do it, good earner for those few that mastered it, majority just could not see the point in it and will not engage, it is not all about risk verses reward in the end, there has to be a good helping of incentive, without that your time has been wasted and our's as well, similar with mining you changed that again in your view to make it better, result less people do it, wonder how many Roquals are currently sitting in 0.0 stations unused.

Now you have turned you attention to Industry, but I would take care, from what I have read so far I can reliably predict you will not get the result you are planning for.

That's how I skimmed it.

i thought ellipses were meant to shorten sentences?

You surely know it best. I don't see how my point (make 00 industry better and more competitive, while keeping High sec intact and competitive) is bad, but you are probably right.

It is not the case. If it was the case, these changes wouldn't happen.

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

Where did I say they were free? I said you can gather the materials from PI (i.e. make the effort to do so...not 'free'). Locking down an ice filed to mine it out? Takes effort to hold the system and effort to mine the field whilst killing the rats that show up. Again not 'free'

I raised the question as to why you don't produce them yourself. I make fuel blocks and know it isn't that difficult. If you have the goods to hand and the build slots available (which you may or may not have) then it is a simple process. After the summer changes you will have unlimited build slots. I would be very surprised if you didn't make the absolute best use of that change.

Sure, they want money, and you can give them money. Even Jita prices. And it would still be cheaper and less effort for you, since you don't have to ferry all the stuff from Jita to 00 sec - you only have to ferry it around in 00 sec with your JBs.

Unfortunately I would chose Jita as well. But why is the 00 market hub anemic to begin with? Is it really that easy to jump stuff from Jita to Tenal or Period Basis all the time?

You're just a slave, your not supposed to think about stuff... is why the term player/customer feedback is unknown tou you. Chill.

The only way they will know is when they suddenly don't get perfect refine, and they lose half their mission loot, and they find out that building a Nestor from a BPC they ground LP for just shot up 200 M in cost, and that the cost of their T1 Raven Navy Issue just shot up 10 or 14% in price to buy, plus using an NPC station to build their ammo just went up a 1000 fold in cost, and they have to buy from the market instead.

Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?

How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost? CCP really needs to be on the ball with this change and make sure no fringe cases slip through the cracks.

Thanks for the replies, so POS were a viable option but at cost and risk of destruction. Isn't that the risk/reward balance in action though? I thought POS's had bonuses in null compared to lo (and obviously you can't even use many of the modules in high).

In terms of renting moons I assume this is via a POS located at the moon. I'm guessing the renting systems are pretty deep inside whichever null alliance owns them to be safe?

Yes, a flat tax hurts only the ones at the lower end of the economic spectrum, and this is what we are dealing with here.
The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Plus, the concept that somehow barriers to entry to being an industrialist will be lowered with these changes is just plain wrong. Sure, having more space opened up for POS's is going to allow more people to dabble in industry. But the upfront costs of building a POS are staying the same, if not going higher. And if the null sec cartel propagandists are to be believed, there was never a problem getting high sec mfg slots. But now, everyone who operates with a few jumps of a trade hub is getting hammered with huge fee increases.

I ran an order last day for 5 run BPC from an LP store. The cost for the 39 minute job was 1219 ISK. Based on the new regime, at the 14% rate, which the system I was in will surely get hit with, the same 39 minute job will cost 91.7 million ISK, based in the in-game valuation tool of the final product's sell price. That was an increase of over 75,000 times.

To put that in perspective, that works out to 141 million ISK per hour, per NPC mfg slot. It costs 108 million in fuel a month at present prices to run a small POS which can easily handle a couple assembly arrays. So yeah, if you can afford the upfront costs of a POS, PLUS find an open slot in the stampede (I already stated that the goons and their RvB slaves will be deadzoning entire systems by putting up small unfueled POS's, simply by using an army of alt corps), plus you can handle the risk of catastrophic BPO corp theft, a POS will be much less onerous.

But that is NOT lowering the barrier to entry, especially when the cartels are being handed an system that encourages full-on predatory pricing to crush high sec industry.

Just depends on how quickly the formula scales up, right? If it only takes ten items to get to max or if POSs contribute to systemwide congestion, things get much hairier for today's solo indy alt corp people. We just need to see numbers to see whether this is nullsec-highsec balance or a highsec nerf.

A significant number of subscribers are clamoring for a dev blog in this series and instead CCP issues a fluff piece on one of their own??!!

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/developer-spotlight-goliath/

I have zero issue with Goliath; I am curious to know whether this "dev blog" is a calculated move on CCP's part to further inflame industrialists or just more evidence of an utterly and absurdly inept PR department inside CCP.

But that's if we're doing "pull numbers out of our butts and make wild assumptions" games.

Another update.
Hyasyoda mobile labs:

Time multiplier for invention: 0.4 (was 0.5)

[/list]

Arrrrgg

DELETE ALL THE OUTPOSTS!

More seriously: will balance time on Hyasoyda lab for that not to happen. Probably tune it down to 0.43 or leave it at 0.45.

So Amarr stations get 5% reduction in materials, but POS gets 2% reduction, or do they stack??

Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 17mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 20 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 2bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.

I typed that about 3 minutes before I read that on the other post :(

Was only an example since most people can relate to the rounded values. Not sure why you assume that I'd use a single Large Ship Assembly Array on a large POS. The calculation doesn't change in either case.