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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2475
   |
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
1) Chimera
2) Another Chimera
3) Chimera and a Pheonix
4) Two more Chimeras
5) Seven Chimeras and a Wyvern
So to recap:
Caldari leviathan - splattered across Caldari Prime during the war.
One Pheonix, one Wyvern and twelve more Chimeras destroyed during this so-called "manhunt."
My question is this:
When Roden finally gets around to making up whatever excuse he wants to invade the Caldari State later this month, are they going to even have anything left to defend themselves with? They were already outnumbered from the get-go; only pure skill and determination has kept them alive this long. And while skill & determination are great, if there is one thing we Amarr understand is that there really is no substitute for overwhelming numbers.
Now they're down a titan and fourteen capital ships, plus who knows what else, all in under one year.
Maybe the Empire should start a "lend/lease" program for our ally? Bolster them back up to par until they can rebuild their fleet properly?
Nullsec in a Nutshell:
http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
381
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
That's a light evening for most nullsec alliances. I am pretty sure sovereign nations have a comparable, if not superior naval force at hand.
CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values.
Intaki Reborn.
Independent Capsuleer. |
Anslo
Scope Works
4889
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's funny because you think the State has so few Capital ships.
It's funnier because you're trying to stir the pot with your assumption.
I giggled.
7/10
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Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
143
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
The Caldari Navy may be small in comparison to the other empires but the recent losses are by no means crippling.
If you think that puts the State in a position where they need assistance then you're in the wrong job,
If only we had more people like Launette Vylier. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4551
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:When Roden finally gets around to making up whatever excuse he wants to invade the Caldari State later this month
You know, I'm going to leave aside how unintentionally insulting your assessment of Caldari military readiness is and laugh at how insane this statement is.
Mane 614
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2477
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
The battle of Luminaire consisted of the Shiigeru and four Wyverns.
That's one third the number of Wyvern's deployed to protect Caldari Prime itself than were lost in this "manhunt." One would think that since, as the above so arrogantly replied, the Caldari Navy apparently considers a dozen capitol ships to be such a trivial pittance that they would have sent at least that many to defend their frikkin homeworld, right?
Nope, they got four.
So to recap: The Caldari Navy could not spare more than four capitol ships (five if you count the titan) to defend Caldari Prime itself but we are supposed to believe that losing a dozen capitol ships in one week is nothing to worry about? When did your hubris get buffed with 100% resist vs logic?
Look, all I'm saying is that maybe the Empire might want to send a little aid your way, but if you're just going to be too stubborn and vain to accept it then I guess there is no point in petitioning for it.
Nullsec in a Nutshell:
http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Anslo
Scope Works
4889
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 19:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:That's one third the number of Wyvern's deployed to protect Caldari Prime itself than were lost in this "manhunt." One would think that since, as the above so arrogantly replied, the Caldari Navy apparently considers a dozen capitol ships to be such a trivial pittance that they would have sent at least that many to defend their frikkin homeworld, right?
If they knew the exact time and place the attack was happening, and what would be coming.
And if their forces weren't already so spread out because Provist derp.
And if the State wasn't in financial dismay.
The list goes on.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4551
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:The battle of Luminaire consisted of the Shiigeru and four Wyverns.That's one third the number of Wyvern's deployed to protect Caldari Prime itself than were lost in this "manhunt." One would think that since, as the above so arrogantly replied, the Caldari Navy apparently considers a dozen capitol ships to be such a trivial pittance that they would have sent at least that many to defend their frikkin homeworld, right? Nope, they got four. So to recap: The Caldari Navy could not spare more than four capitol ships (five if you count the titan) to defend Caldari Prime itself but we are supposed to believe that losing a dozen capitol ships in one week is nothing to worry about? When did your hubris get buffed with 100% resist vs logic?
Your tactical understanding of the situation is as laughable as your understanding of international politics. The Caldari Navy was able to deploy only four Wyverns and a handful of Chimeras to Caldari Prime because that's the amount of ships they could squeeze through in the seconds-long window they had in which the Federation's Luminaire cynosural field jammer had been taken offline to allow the deployment of their own capital fleet. They didn't know when or for how long this would happen. Hell, they may not even have known if it would happen - wagering that the Federation already had a significant capital presence in one of their own core systems would not have been an unreasonable assumption.
Also worthy of note is the fact that these were capsuleer-piloted Navy vessels, which are astronomically less common than conventionally-crewed Navy vessels.
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Look, all I'm saying is that maybe the Empire might want to send a little aid your way, but if you're just going to be too stubborn and vain to accept it then I guess there is no point in petitioning for it.
You're getting mighty uppity for an Ammatar, aren't you?
Mane 614
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3175
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:The battle of Luminaire consisted of the Shiigeru and four Wyverns.
That's one third the number of Wyvern's deployed to protect Caldari Prime itself than were lost in this "manhunt." One would think that since, as the above so arrogantly replied, the Caldari Navy apparently considers a dozen capitol ships to be such a trivial pittance that they would have sent at least that many to defend their frikkin homeworld, right?
Nope, they got four.
Take a look at the public blueprints for those ships, Pilot Luftschreck. The titan takes two months to build, the Wyvern one month, and the dreadnought and carrier both take two weeks. Those are time quotes for capsuleers who use installations not pre-designed explicitly for production of those ships.
Dedicated naval shipyards can cut the production time in half simply by being purpose-built. With a nearly constant supply of parts and supplies and crew coming from the most militarized nation-state in New Eden, these shipyards can pump out a new supercapital in a matter of weeks. Crewing them is another matter, mind you. Anyways, it's no wonder that losing a few capitals isn't something to cry bloody murder over.
Quote: The Caldari Navy could not spare more than four capitol ships (five if you count the titan) to defend Caldari Prime itself but we are supposed to believe that losing a dozen capitol ships in one week is nothing to worry about? When did your hubris get buffed with 100% resist vs logic?
As for the Third Battle of Caldari Prime, I understand how this can be confusing to a vast majority of capsuleers who don't understand CONCORD's cyno-jamming technology, so I will attempt to explain it in the simple terms I learned it through.
Every time a capital fleet is moved around New Eden's high-security systems, CONCORD knows about it. With a few exceptions, every single time a fleet has illegally jumped, it was during a glitch or outage with CONCORD's cyno-jamming. A vast majority of the time, legal high-sec jumps are scheduled and monitored by CONCORD. This is where it gets complicated, so I won't go into details of the mechanics. Some cases are more akin to bridge networks. Others use actual beacons. In rare cases, the jammers are deactivated to allow emergency jumps, such as for defensive actions. Unfortunately for the defender, removing the jamming allows the attackers to also jump in ships, so the opening window is kept purposefully brief.
During that brief window when the Federation Navy moved their capital fleet in, we were able to jump in our own. However, not all of our ships got through. This is normal for narrow-window bridging. It happens all the time to our own nullsec alliances when the cyno beacon won't last long. Some of the fleet gets left behind. We knew there would be an opening, but we did not know when. Unlike the Federation Fleet which was told the exact time to jump before they actually had to, we had to both detect and react to the opening.
Imagine trying to manually take a picture of a timed electrical arc. You know it's going to flash, but you have no idea exactly when, so you can only react as fast as you can recognize it, even if you had superhuman reflexes. A second camera is slaved to a computer to snap the photo at the exact moment the arc strikes. Which one of the two cameras do you think will get a picture of the arc, and which camera will get a picture of the aftereffects? The automatic one, or the manual one?
I hope that clears up the situation.
Quote:Look, all I'm saying is that maybe the Empire might want to send a little aid your way, but if you're just going to be too stubborn and vain to accept it then I guess there is no point in petitioning for it.
Oh, and, you are not the Amarr Empire, and we are not the Caldari State. Nothing you say will determine Imperial support. Nothing we say will determine the State's reply.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki
~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer
~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Imperial Outlaws.
1475
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
I hope you realize that the assets involved in both the recent battle for Luminaire and the theft of CalNav were from a 37th Squadron. A Squadron being one of the smallest Fleet Unit Commands. Presumably there are then at least 36 other Squadrons in what would be a Fleet Wing. Which in turn would be but a small part of a Strike Fleet.
The loss of one Squadron, from one Wing, from one Strike Fleet of the Caldari Navy being an actual strategic concern, really isn't I would say. |
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Ber Kan
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
69
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Posted - 2014.04.21 20:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
I Like where this thread is gouing. but in truth. I will have to Support Katrine in this.
-Scandoveski.
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á This thread has been Plundered. |
Graelyn
Decapsulation Services
Cascade Imminent
562
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Posted - 2014.04.21 23:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Based on these sort of numerical assumptions, Jamyl's Coronation escort would have conquered the cluster by now.
+ Cardinal Graelyn +
Owner/Operator, "The Summit"
Amarr Loyalist of the Year --áYC113 |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3176
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 23:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Graelyn wrote:Based on these sort of numerical assumptions, Jamyl's Coronation escort would have conquered the cluster by now.
Well to be fair, the Imperial Navy is the largest homogeneous fighting force in New Eden.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki
~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer
~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6197
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 01:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Priano Trans-Stellar is a very small capsuleer corporation in the grand scheme of things. I think only two of our pilots have capital ships and have employed them. Despite this, we possess two dreadnaughts, three carriers, and, well, I don't include freighters for obvious reasons.
If I were to liquidate some of our reserve of assault cruisers and logistics cruisers, our reserve of Ascendancy implant manufacturing materials, etc, etc, then another handful of carriers would take all of a few hours to bring online, using the open market. The price is even more favorable if I use Ishuk-Raata's internal capital production programs.
If I were to make a specific point of it, what's more, it likely wouldn't be beyond our reach to acquire a supercarrier. This is speaking as a small and not-particularly-wealthy-by-capsuleer-standards corporation.
While I'm sure the State's Navy is of course regretful over the loss of these Chimeras, these losses are not by any measure crippling or even so much as a hindrance to normal activity.
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |
Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
383
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 08:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seems that despite the original poster believing they have the power to speak on behalf of their Empire (or we for our varying allegiances), there are a great many capsuleers with a sense of perspective and their place. Similarly, the OP's complete unfamiliarity or willful ignorance of modern military capabilities seems to be offset by the realism of her peers.
Maybe this thread isn't so bad after all.
I will give the Ammatar one point to her cause, though. If I were the State, I'd be very concerned about internal security. You got lucky that the Dragonaurs have alienated themselves from you and your enemies. If this happens with a group sympathetic to outside interests, with that sympathy reciprocated, the situation could escalate uncontrollably. Be vigilant.
CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values.
Intaki Reborn.
Independent Capsuleer. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4553
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Posted - 2014.04.22 12:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aelisha wrote:Seems that despite the original poster believing they have the power to speak on behalf of their Empire
Which would be pretty damn presumptuous at the best of times, but in this case the person in question is an Ammatar.
Now, I usually don't call out ethnicities and I usually don't pay attention to the Amarrian caste system because it's an utter crock, but in this case it's entirely relevant because it's an Ammatar. It's a person who has willingly subscribed to a socially destructive form of cultural self-enslavement that makes their people the least among freemen in the Empire suddenly deciding that, no, they can speak on behalf of the Amarr Empire in telling the Caldari that they need to further indebt themselves to the Empire to mainatin their safety.
I'd say the irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife, but in fact I suspect you'd find most blades wouldn't pierce it.
Mane 614
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2480
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 12:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well Andreus, I guess that shows how little you really know about the Mandate, then.
Nullsec in a Nutshell:
http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Anslo
Scope Works
4889
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 12:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Well Andreus, I guess that shows how little you really know about the Mandate, then.
There's more to know aside from you all being a snarky lot?
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3568
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Posted - 2014.04.22 13:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
One funny thing that happened a couple years back was a skirmish in Amamake. Not so unusual in itself perhaps, but a number of things made this one strange:
First, it took place in extremely low orbit over a colony called Pike's Landing. Gauntlet-run dreadnought OBs were carried out.
Second: Mordu's Legion were heavily involved - in fact, one of the Gauntlet-running dreads was taken down by a Legion Drake.
Third: The Ishukone Corporation deployed seven Wyverns to the battle. Including, I should point out, the newly-commissioned IWV Gariushi.
Ishukone was, at the time, a pariah corporation being actively marginalised by the Heth administration. D'you know that an executive order was actually in effect at the time, in which the CPD ordered the Science and Trade Institute not to accept Ishukone applicants?
So, the corporation which was at the time by far the smallest, weakest and most pressured Okusaika still managed to deploy seven Wyverns plus a full and appropriate support force including chimeras and phoenixes to a Minmatar system. I wouldn't extrapolate the small number of ships involved in this theft and manhunt into a judgement about the size of the Caldari Navy, pilots. If the State will happily spend hundreds of PLEX on the bounty, I think you can safely assume that they have ISK and resources aplenty.
The whole incident was brutally suppressed by the CPD, never mentioned by ACN, and for some reason never made the Scope feeds. I only found out about it via an infobroker in Rens three months after the fact. If anyone's interested in reviewing the files, I'll gladly put you in contact with her. It makes for interesting reading.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
181
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Posted - 2014.04.22 14:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
To answer your strategic question, as many have said in the thread, the State still has a Navy and I am sure those ships are ~already replaced~
However, like the Goonswarm Federation, I think all State shipyards use the password '420'
And like the goonswarm, carriers end up stolen when you so advocate drug abuse.
But all in the pursuit of level headed officers I suppose. Who can blame them after Heth?
-áFear The Tribes |
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1169
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Posted - 2014.04.22 14:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Well Andreus, I guess that shows how little you really know about the Mandate, then.
I think how much or how little Andreus knows about the Mandate isn't really relevant to the discussion.
You've pretty clearly demnostrated a near-complete lack of understanding with regards to the tactical situation in Luminaire last year and the options and decisions involved, however - and that is quite relevant, since it's what spawned this thread in the first place.
Had it been possible, I'm sure that the State would have diverted every ship within range to Luminaire last year in that brief window that the Federation temporarily offlined the cynojammers in the system. Unfortunately for them, it wasn't possible. Many ships that were in range may not have been fueled or ready at the time they needed to go, and many more still would likely have been out of range, ready or not.
Those ships that were ready and in range, and only those ships, were able to be deployed - and, in all likelihood, the ones that managed to make it through were but a small fraction of those ships that were ready at the time. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as some central coordinator pressing a button, and every ship available jumps with that press. A human (or computer) has to give the initial order to the fleet, and then that order must be processed and confirmed by yet another human (or computer) at the other end. In addition, while ships of identical models are more or less made up of identical parts, each vessel is still unique compared to its brothers and sisters. While one ship may jump a mere two seconds after the local order to lock on to the cynosural beacon and activate the jump drive, another otherwise identical vessel may take five seconds to do so, for a variety of reasons, both mechanical and organic.
Three seconds may not seem like a lot, but when the jammers are offline for half a minute or less, every second counts.
And in the end, how much would it really have mattered? The Federation Navy managed to arrange the entire battle to their full advantage, forcing an engagement at close ranges that played to nearly every one of their strengths. Had the Caldari been able to bring through all of the ships that were in range at the time, would that have been enough, given those circumstances?
I'm not sure it would have.
Morwen Lagann
CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Pieter Tuulinen
Verdant Inquiries
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
3514
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 14:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
It might have done if they had not jumped to close orbit of Caldari Prime. I'm sure a sizable fleet over the OTHER inhabited world in the system might have caused the Federal Navy to flinch - still, that would have led to very unfortunate repurcussions for all involved.
Strategically speaking, I think everyone knew that once the Gallente decided to risk the collateral damage, there was little to be done except make the attempt as expensive as possible. Under the circumstances, I think we did rather well.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..." |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
182
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Posted - 2014.04.22 15:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Having been on many of these kinds of fleets I can second what Morwen, Katrina, Andreus, and others have said in regards to do with the factors that determine just how super capital engagements go down.
More often than not the entity that escalates first and gains the upper hand quickest is the one who owns the field. Supercapitals are investments and moved around as such.
Sometimes, you have to cut your losses and lose four rather than risk losing twenty.
-áFear The Tribes |
Anslo
Scope Works
4890
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Posted - 2014.04.22 15:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Short version; don't play your best hand in the middle of a card game where the stakes are low. There are higher stake games to worry about.
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6197
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Posted - 2014.04.22 15:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm not sure what card games you play, pilot, but the ones I tend to play don't allow you too much choice on your hand-- just on your wagers and your aggressiveness. Skill there is based on learning your opponents' technique, and pushing them, hard, when they present a momentary opening.
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |
Anslo
Scope Works
4890
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 15:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
If you don't have much choice on the hand you play in a fight, you've done something horribly wrong.
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1169
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Posted - 2014.04.22 16:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
Her point is that card games are a rather poor choice of metaphor in this case.
Morwen Lagann
CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3568
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 16:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Depends on the card game. There's that game my young cousin plays, "Sorcery: The Harvesting" where your entire deck is composed only of those cards you choose to include.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
108
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 16:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Depends on the card game. There's that game my young cousin plays, "Sorcery: The Harvesting" where your entire deck is composed only of those cards you choose to include.
That game basically took half of my free time during high school. It stopped when I knew girls. Maybe there was some cause-consequence relation in that process. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Verdant Inquiries
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
3515
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 16:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
The only card games I remember were the ones that assigned me to extra posts and patrols in the cadet barracks.
I'm a lousy card player.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..." |
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