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WillusKillus
Hooded Underworld Guys Northern Coalition.
6
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
As the only Amarr/Caldari capital (apart from Titans) without a resistance bonus this would make total sense.
follows the trend of each races subcaps having the resist bonus too. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
265
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
please and thank you! -A- Space Rental Program https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4163928#post4163928 |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
364
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:How about we fix the phoenix first. You can at least hit things in a Revelation.
- is unaware the Phoenix already applies damage quite well? Check - is unaware the Phoenix is getting an application bonus with the buff in a thread specifically about that buff? Check - is Esteban Dragonovic
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BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
769
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Daily reminder that a tank bonus is useless on a dreadnought . |
It's Miley
Rum Ham Industries
0
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
tank bonuses on dreads area really cool now maybe you'll survive that initial bomber wave volley |
It's Miley
Rum Ham Industries
0
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
probably not though lmbo |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3417
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Posted - 2014.05.01 21:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sure, why not. Seems fairly reasonable. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1834
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Posted - 2014.05.01 22:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
BadAssMcKill wrote:Daily reminder that a tank bonus is useless on a dreadnought
elaberate?
for wh resist bonus is killer.
also making it tank a few DD does not hurt either. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kassandra Thiesant
Lazerhawks
6
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Posted - 2014.05.02 03:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Roll the cap bonus into the guns? yes please... Give second damage bonus? yes please...
So my Revelation will now out damage a Naglfar is what I am hearing, just with limited damage types and worst tracking.
Seems like a reasonable trade off to me, and I still keep all my advantages that I had before: capacitor, good damage projection, cheap ammo, and best armor tank out of all the Dreads.
Sorry... say what?
I missed the part where armor dreads will be able to somehow tank more than shield dreads?
Please pass those drugs over. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5633
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Posted - 2014.05.02 03:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
So now that the Phoenix is going to easily be on par with the Naglfar, it's even more important that the Revelation get some attention as well. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
112
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Posted - 2014.05.02 04:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Kassandra Thiesant wrote:Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Roll the cap bonus into the guns? yes please... Give second damage bonus? yes please...
So my Revelation will now out damage a Naglfar is what I am hearing, just with limited damage types and worst tracking.
Seems like a reasonable trade off to me, and I still keep all my advantages that I had before: capacitor, good damage projection, cheap ammo, and best armor tank out of all the Dreads. Sorry... say what? I missed the part where armor dreads will be able to somehow tank more than shield dreads? Please pass those drugs over.
I said best armor tank out of all the Dreads... in other words its armor tanks the strongest compared to rest of the Dreads armor tanks.
I am perfectly aware active shield tanks are superior to armor. -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
162
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Posted - 2014.05.02 05:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
+1. Rev needs something to distinguish it from the other two. Also, 10% damage bonus would be more dps than the firing rate bonus, and quite nice. |
Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
162
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Posted - 2014.05.02 05:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Also THE PHOENIX. DEAR GOD THE FUN!!! |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
769
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Posted - 2014.05.02 09:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:BadAssMcKill wrote:Daily reminder that a tank bonus is useless on a dreadnought elaberate? for wh resist bonus is killer. also making it tank a few DD does not hurt either.
To put it simply giving it 10% damage AND a resist bonus would be op. So it'd be either 5% damage and tank or double damage and I'm fairly sure most people would go for damage over tank when dealing with dreads . |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1206
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Posted - 2014.05.02 10:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
The other problem with the Rev is the lack of a meaningful range advantage over the Moros and Naglfar. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
395
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Posted - 2014.05.02 10:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Yes Revelation will be the worst dread after this Change Why not just keep this scheme while adjusting revelation?
Universal damage , weapons not using Cap , Big Alfa Damage : - Nag - Flying coffin
Limited damage type , weapons cap based , dps over alpha: - Moros - Revelation
Right now well fitted Phoenix can outdps moros, or even a mothership while bashing structures , but it will have issues to hit any thing moving.
Nag can apply any damage type , and when fitting LR guns can make nice alpha.
Moros will melt any thing close , even smaller targets when they will get webbed and painted , like nag on auto cannons.
Revelation only don't have to worry about ammo , but dps is low, and ship is very cap depending.
Summer 2014 - Carrier Split
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Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
63
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Posted - 2014.05.02 11:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
T2 Siege, 3x T2 Damage, Meta 0 Guns (short range), standard high close ammo, reloads accounted for.
Revelation: 7541 - 25 + 12.5 Naglfar: 8278 - 15.6 + 36 Moros: 10223 - 12.5 + 31.3 Phoenix: 7862 - 58k
Looking at a large POS. 30+k bubble range ... If we do again for 30k optimal as mimimum then:
Revelation: 6913 - Gamma Naglfar: 5519 - Depleted Uranium Moros: 5964 - Iridium Phoenix: 7862 - 58k
If the rev get a bonus then it shouldnt be damage, it clearly stuffs the rest save the Phoenix at range.
Look at the the base stats of large and X large short range weapons to compare (opt/falloff). T2 Neutrons: 7.2/10 T2 Pulse: 24/8 T2 Auto: 4.8/19.2
X Neutrons: 20/25 X Pulse: 40/10 X Auto: 25/29
The Moros gets 3x the optimal and falloff roughly. The Rev gets nothing like 3x either The Nag gets an odd mix of too much optimal, or not enough falloff ...
Its not the ships, its the X Large weapons. The ships perform out of whack because modifiers using TC or TE mean the above XL to L inconsistency is magnified.
Fix the Rev? No, I would fix the guns. |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
112
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Posted - 2014.05.02 13:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The other problem with the Rev is the lack of a meaningful range advantage over the Moros and Naglfar.
The Revelation projects damage quite significantly farther and better compared to Moros and Naglfar (all using short range weapons).
Unsure about long range weapons, but my gut says Rails will out project Beams. -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
112
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Posted - 2014.05.02 13:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
Rab See wrote: X Neutrons: 20/25 X Pulse: 40/10 X Auto: 25/29
The Moros gets 3x the optimal and falloff roughly. The Rev gets nothing like 3x either The Nag gets an odd mix of too much optimal, or not enough falloff ...
Its not the ships, its the X Large weapons. The ships perform out of whack because modifiers using TC or TE mean the above XL to L inconsistency is magnified.
Fix the Rev? No, I would fix the guns.
Sorry but I need a clarification.. are those your suggestions to buffing guns..
If they are, please leave, we do NOT need that huge of a buff to the Moros.
Although I'd like to say its odd Autos have better optimal than Blasters. -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
63
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Posted - 2014.05.02 13:44:00 -
[50] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Rab See wrote: X Neutrons: 20/25 X Pulse: 40/10 X Auto: 25/29
The Moros gets 3x the optimal and falloff roughly. The Rev gets nothing like 3x either The Nag gets an odd mix of too much optimal, or not enough falloff ...
Its not the ships, its the X Large weapons. The ships perform out of whack because modifiers using TC or TE mean the above XL to L inconsistency is magnified.
Fix the Rev? No, I would fix the guns.
Sorry but I need a clarification.. are those your suggestions to buffing guns.. If they are, please leave, we do NOT need that huge of a buff to the Moros. Although I'd like to say its odd Autos have better optimal than Blasters.
No - its merely a note of the inconsistency. The large guns illustrate this. Nerf XL Blasters, alter XL Autos, leave XL Pulse alone? Lets not exaggerate the issue. Its not the Rev, we cannot use the Moros as a benchmark, and we know they need to have differences, or its a crap game.
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
182
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Posted - 2014.05.02 14:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
People are forgetting the Revelation has 8 lows. Two damage bonuses would probably a little too good, given that.
My suggestion is to give the Revelation a 5% damage bonus and a 7.5% optimal range bonus. Damage + optimal rolls in some of cap bonus due to the change from a RoF bonus. The Moros would still be massively superior at point blank range, since it can then use its highest damage ammo. However, at less than point-blank, the Revelation would be able to use higher damage ammo at any given range, allowing the optimal range bonus to function as a pseudo damage bonus and close the gap between the two dreads significantly.
At longer ranges, the Revelation would do more DPS to balance the Moros being able to do more DPS closer in. The Moros right now can hit to 250km with Iron, so there's no risk of the Revelation being able to snipe from a distance that the Moros can't hit at all, like was the case with the Apoc/Megathron before the probe changes. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
63
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Posted - 2014.05.02 14:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:People are forgetting the Revelation has 8 lows. Two damage bonuses would probably a little too good, given that.
My suggestion is to give the Revelation a 5% damage bonus and a 7.5% optimal range bonus. Damage + optimal rolls in some of cap bonus due to the change from a RoF bonus. The Moros would still be massively superior at point blank range, since it can then use its highest damage ammo. However, at less than point-blank, the Revelation would be able to use higher damage ammo at any given range, allowing the optimal range bonus to function as a pseudo damage bonus and close the gap between the two dreads significantly.
At longer ranges, the Revelation would do more DPS to balance the Moros being able to do more DPS closer in. The Moros right now can hit to 250km with Iron, so there's no risk of the Revelation being able to snipe from a distance that the Moros can't hit at all, like was the case with the Apoc/Megathron before the probe changes.
This ignores the optimal on the Moros and Nag being very similar, as well as the falloff. Totally counter to how one thinks of Gallente and Minmatar. Lets take the Rev as a benchmark. Opt:Falloff ratios a bit rough to illustrate, Pulse -> Hybrid -> Auto
- Pulse L are 3:1, XL are 4:1
- Neutron L are 7:10, XL are 4:5
- Auto L are 1:4, XL are 1:1
Optimals Autos are surreally off, but thats not all. Large optimals: 24 -> 7 -> 5 XL optimals 40 -> 20 -> 25
If we use large as a matching goal, then XL should be: XL optimals 40 -> 12 -> 8
Falloff Fallof is in the same boat. Again saying XL Pluse standard: Large falloff: 8 -> 10 -> 20 XL falloff: 10-> 20-> 25
Again, using large as a match, the XL should be: XL falloff: 10-> 12 -> 25
So, new XL Guns would change the landscape. Blap dread would need to get close, real close. Autos would also need to be quite close, but reliant on falloff a lot, and Pulse would simply deal damage at range. Dont change the Rev, fix the guns and force Moros to use anything other than antimatter. It would even up dreads a lot.
Does this sound normal? |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
114
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Posted - 2014.05.02 17:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:People are forgetting the Revelation has 8 lows. Two damage bonuses would probably a little too good, given that.
My suggestion is to give the Revelation a 5% damage bonus and a 7.5% optimal range bonus. Damage + optimal rolls in some of cap bonus due to the change from a RoF bonus. The Moros would still be massively superior at point blank range, since it can then use its highest damage ammo. However, at less than point-blank, the Revelation would be able to use higher damage ammo at any given range, allowing the optimal range bonus to function as a pseudo damage bonus and close the gap between the two dreads significantly.
At longer ranges, the Revelation would do more DPS to balance the Moros being able to do more DPS closer in. The Moros right now can hit to 250km with Iron, so there's no risk of the Revelation being able to snipe from a distance that the Moros can't hit at all, like was the case with the Apoc/Megathron before the probe changes.
Replacing the Rate Of Fire Bonus with a damage bonus is a DPS nerf due to the way the math works. (1% ROF = 1.3333% Damage if memory serves me right)
So if you did it your way I think it would be even less used. -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
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Posted - 2014.05.02 17:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Replacing the Rate Of Fire Bonus with a damage bonus is a DPS nerf due to the way the math works. (1% ROF = 1.3333% Damage if memory serves me right)
So if you did it your way I think it would be even less used.
RoF doesn't stack additively like that, 25% RoF is 33% more damage.
I'm also well aware that it is a slight DPS nerf, but the optimal bonus functions as a damage bonus relative to the Moros at any range outside of antimatter range since you can then use higher damage ammo than the Moros can at any given range. Beams on the Rev would start to outdamage rails on the Moros at about 80km and that gap would increase as the range opened. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1206
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Posted - 2014.05.02 18:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Gypsio III wrote:The other problem with the Rev is the lack of a meaningful range advantage over the Moros and Naglfar. The Revelation projects damage quite significantly farther and better compared to Moros and Naglfar (all using short range weapons).
It doesn't when you've fitted a couple of TCs or equivalent. And since people don't use unfitted ships... |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
114
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Posted - 2014.05.02 19:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Gypsio III wrote:The other problem with the Rev is the lack of a meaningful range advantage over the Moros and Naglfar. The Revelation projects damage quite significantly farther and better compared to Moros and Naglfar (all using short range weapons). It doesn't when you've fitted a couple of TCs or equivalent. And since people don't use unfitted ships...
The Rev compared to Moros and Naglfar can still fit 3 Tracking Computers + 1 Tracking Enhancer and still fit a full tank. The Moros actually loses the Tracking Enhancer, and if you armor tank an Auto Nag to Tracking Computers you are doing it wrong.
So the Rev still has best Damage Projection, not that it matters really anyway since you fight in closer ranges anyway.. 10-50km with short range Dreads. So the Moros and Naglfar are still king.
Adding even more Damage Projection on top of the Rev won't do anything. You need to give it an edge over the other Dreads in the usual close range environment.
Exchange cap bonus for armor resist bonus, buff ROF Bonus a tad, put 40% cap reduction on XL Lasers. Should give it a good edge in my opinion. -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
769
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Posted - 2014.05.02 21:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
No as long as you do less DPS, track worse and have worse cap use than all the other dreads you're always going to be the third rate option
Also a 40% reduction is quite large imo, its basically a free bonus
. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1206
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Posted - 2014.05.02 21:12:00 -
[58] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
The Rev compared to Moros and Naglfar can still fit 3 Tracking Computers + 1 Tracking Enhancer and still fit a full tank. The Moros actually loses the Tracking Enhancer, and if you armor tank an Auto Nag to Tracking Computers you are doing it wrong.
So the Rev still has best Damage Projection
If the Rev can fit three TCs and a TE, then the Moros can fit four TCs. Armour Nags are terrible, shield Nag can fit two TEs. Result:
Rev: 36/25 km Moros: 18/65 km Naglfar: 19/51 km
Moros easily outdamages Rev at all ranges. Rev has a miniscule raw DPS advantage over the Naglfar at 36-47 km, which basically disappears once tracking and damage type is accounted for. |
Rita Zechs
Large Rodent Hunters
0
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Posted - 2014.05.19 18:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
BadAssMcKill wrote:Daily reminder that a tank bonus is useless on a dreadnought
It is for nullsec blobbers, it isn't in wormholes where 50K DPS tanking deadspace Naglfars are now all the rage...
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