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Huge gap between tech1 and tech2 industry!

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Arlenik Emmanouelik	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:06:00 - [1] Greetings everyone, Arlenik is my name. This isn't about the ridiculous amounts of money that tech2 builders make. This is about how ridiculously low the profit margins are in tech1 manufacturing. I have trained for months to have the skills to build tech1, and now I'm finding myself having a hard time making any decent amount of profit. I own 5 tech1 BPOs so far(one ship BPO), and I mine my own ore plus I'm constantly buying minerals. Unless I manage to buy the minerals 10%-15% below market value, I barely break even selling my goods that were built from my mined ore. This is usually because idiots, sorry, for some reason sell their goods below mineral value. Someone please tell me why that is? My question is, why the hell do we even have tech1 manufacturing? With so little profits I wonder if its even worth the trouble of going through months of skill training, gathering minerals, buying BPOs, researching them, building them, shipping them, and selling them. I can make about the same amount of money just by mining, with alot less work. To put things into perspective: Lets say there is 500k profit in each Vexor that I manage to build and sell. Now, lets assume I manage to build and sell 2x Vexors each day. Thats about 30mil profit in a month. However, buying and selling Silicon in ONLY one system I'm already making 66mil a month in profits. That Silicon buying/selling is something that requires a hauler and maybe some trading skills(what 2 days worth of training). Whereas I've spent months training for my industry/science skills. Maybe we could have NPC stations buy our tech1 manufactured items? I would like to hear what tech1 builders have to say about this. I think many will agree that tech1 industry is pretty much dead. Peace!
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:12:00 - [2] tech1 industry has been dead for years. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Radial Light	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:19:00 - [3] I produce tech 1 items as well, depending on the item i get profit margins from 5% to 20% and more. Selling at the right place at the right time, you can make even more. Ofc it's no where like tech II production, but i can make a living out of it. I have my 10 slots running almost all the time with various items and ships and sell them at 3 hot spots. It's all about where to sell, you won't make much money by selling ships or most mods in Jita. Also items that drop a lot from npcs won't make money at all. However, you start slowly, make some money. Then you make some market research, find a niche, buy a new bpo and make more money. Make use of your slots. Train mass production and advanced mass production, utilize those 10 slots. Most important, have lots of different things to sell. If you specialize in only a handful of items, you won't sell much. However if you sell 50 different things, you will sell constantly something. That way even small profits add up. High quantity, low profit Tech I market is like discounter, where as tech II is the luxury market with enormous profits. Buy low run bpc to see if there is a market. Produce it, see if you make a profit and how good it sells. Try bpcs that you never would have thought of. Be ready to check your prices 3, 4, 5 times a day to be competitive. Tech I production is not the best way to make a fortune for new players, it is run by big corps that get their minerals themselves, or by individuals that spread their efforts over many different items. It's just a way to make money, one way i enjoy a lot.
Jarnis McPieksu	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:20:00 - [4] T1 industry in safe empire space has been killed by the morons who consider self-mined ore as 'free', and sell the stuff below cost. If you want to make profit with T1 items, move your operations to 0.0 space. There are plenty of places in 0.0 space where you can turn a profit from T1 manufacturing - both ships and modules. However, it will be risky, requires diplomacy with the alliance controlling the space, and you won't be buying minerals at rock bottom prices off the market either. But there is profit. Definitely. - Jarnis McPieksu Industrial Operative, Beagle Corp
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu T1 industry in safe empire space has been killed by the morons who consider self-mined ore as 'free', and sell the stuff below cost. QFT theres a lot of mathematically challenged people about.
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:25:00 - [6] low sec is the place to be profit margins are better tho its risky hauler etc cloaker and so forth. Move BPCs out get youre minerals haul em around its fairly easy once u get instas
Arlenik Emmanouelik	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Radial Light I produce tech 1 items as well, depending on the item i get profit margins from 5% to 20% and more. Selling at the right place at the right time, you can make even more. Ofc it's no where like tech II production, but i can make a living out of it. I have my 10 slots running almost all the time with various items and ships and sell them at 3 hot spots. It's all about where to sell, you won't make much money by selling ships or most mods in Jita. Also items that drop a lot from npcs won't make money at all. However, you start slowly, make some money. Then you make some market research, find a niche, buy a new bpo and make more money. Make use of your slots. Train mass production and advanced mass production, utilize those 10 slots. Most important, have lots of different things to sell. If you specialize in only a handful of items, you won't sell much. However if you sell 50 different things, you will sell constantly something. That way even small profits add up. High quantity, low profit Tech I market is like discounter, where as tech II is the luxury market with enormous profits. Buy low run bpc to see if there is a market. Produce it, see if you make a profit and how good it sells. Try bpcs that you never would have thought of. Be ready to check your prices 3, 4, 5 times a day to be competitive. Tech I production is not the best way to make a fortune for new players, it is run by big corps that get their minerals themselves, or by individuals that spread their efforts over many different items. It's just a way to make money, one way i enjoy a lot. I get what you are saying, but is it really worth going through all that trouble where you can make so much more for less work doing something else which isn't restricted to less than 1% of the lucky population?
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:27:00 - [8] And there's tech1 loot in empire too ofc. In 0.0 it's required for a functining economy atm, but in empire ti should just get lost tbh. Named, fine but tech1 stock loot shouldn't drop at all. Power to the players !
Pizi	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:33:00 - [9] problem is people dont realize what the "real" prize is for an manifactured item things like minerals are free, i mine them myselfe or if you put up a buyorder for trit @ 1.40 you can easy sell them for 1.90 so calculate the cost at 1.90 i hate it as much as you when i can sell T1 stuff for weeks with 50% makeup then someone walzes in and sell for 1-5%
Crumplecorn	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu T1 industry in safe empire space has been killed by the morons who consider self-mined ore as 'free', and sell the stuff below cost. QFT theres a lot of mathematically challenged people about. These are one of the funniest groups of people in the world. Not only do they spend their time mining (and while I like mining, it is fairly dull), they actually reduce the reward they get for all their hard work. That's a classic. I don't take much solace in their loss of hard-earned ISK though, when trying to sell stuff. ---------- Sorry but that link contains nawty language. -wystler "Discussing moderation is not allowed" - Ivan K "Ranting is prohibited" - Teblin

Pizi	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Rod Blaine And there's tech1 loot in empire too ofc. In 0.0 it's required for a functining economy atm, but in empire ti should just get lost tbh. Named, fine but tech1 stock loot shouldn't drop at all. yup ,up mission payment and stop dropping that crap loot and stop giving out T1 items as mission reward so this would be good for miners, mission runers and producers
Rasta Populos	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:41:00 - [12] Production is used mainly for corp assets and member support. there isnt really a market for t1 items, unless you are a dedicated builder with having 15 factories running constantly and 10 labs researching constantly. The profits of mining/npcing/missions are still much higher tho.
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:41:00 - [13] I wonder how much "room" there really is for independent producers in 0.0 though.... I'd imagine if you are in 0.0 more than for very short excursions, you almost certainly would be part of a group, or be independently capable, of producing everything you need... ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Aodha Khan	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:49:00 - [14] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 19/05/2006 09:50:52 I have been playing Eve since beta. 6 months ago I decided to give production a try having only really been in combat. I now make at least 500m per month in T1 and rising. I have been hearing that T1 has no profit for the last 2 years. No profit in T1 = bull***. My T2 ammo (Large) bpo on the other hand makes a very low profit. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.*
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Aodha Khan I have been playing Eve since beta. 6 months ago I decided to give production a try having only really been in combat. I now make at least 500m per month in T1 and rising. pure manufacturing profit?
Aodha Khan	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:58:00 - [16] Originally by: HippoKing pure manufacturing profit? Yes. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Arlenik Emmanouelik	Posted - 2006.05.19 09:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 19/05/2006 09:50:52 I have been playing Eve since beta. 6 months ago I decided to give production a try having only really been in combat. I now make at least 500m per month in T1 and rising. I have been hearing that T1 has no profit for the last 2 years. No profit in T1 = bull****. My T2 ammo (Large) bpo on the other hand makes a very low profit. Mind sharing some of your tech1 industry secrets with us please? are you talking 500mil per month in T1 in profits? or 500mil revenue? To bring up my vexor example again, thats about 225mil in revenue, but only about 30mil in profits.
Aodha Khan	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:11:00 - [18] 500m pure profit. Buy minerals, make products and sell at profit. Continue to invest in new range of products to increase that profit margin per month. There really is no secret. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Aodha Khan 500m pure profit. Buy minerals, make products and sell at profit. Continue to invest in new range of products to increase that profit margin per month. There really is no secret. I've been considering about this too... if you have 100 different items producing to demand, at 5% real-profit, and you have the capital and such to get into it, and keep it going... thats still 5% profit on that 100 things.. and since its profit, at least in theory... you can do effectively no work to speak of, other than arranging the supply and distribution... buying all your minerals, ect. now to find appropriate T1 items, and locations, that have a constant enough demand to fill... ALOT of trickles could accumulate pretty fast... but man the management on that would be crazy. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Ab Tallen	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:20:00 - [20] Probably no use producing items that come as mission or ratting loot in your region, as ratters will undercut your prices to get rid of the stuff (reprocessing is boring). On the other hand, there's not a single Thrasher to be had at the price of it's platinum insurance in the whole of Placid (or, according to the EVE central market browser, all of EVE). I think the free market is too small after all: Most people are being organized in corporations, which mostly try to be self-sufficient. And only a few solo pilots who really have to live off market products. In the end, people in EVE are just as greedy, profit oriented, and power hungry as in the real world :)

Sensor Error	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:24:00 - [21] personally, I NPC agent *****. I very rarely have to buy any modules, as all I do is pick up all my loot. If its usable, it goes in one container, if not, it gets melted. I have a steady stream of minerals, not to mention all the modules I ever need. This is stupid. I would rather have to pick up compounds in much the same way that you do with drones. Yes, let the ships drop the occasional named module, just like they do now, but it's crazy that I've not had to buy a gun, shield mod, shield amp, armour rep, drone, missile launcher since a month or so after I started playing again. I did run some numbers when I re-started, wondering if it might be worth it to make an industrial character. Basically, empire is already run on veeeery shaven profits due to blinding competition, not to mention people using their "free ore" or NPC runners like myself selling good stuff for a quick profit... This does need looking at... RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
Draquin	Posted - 2006.05.20 07:36:00 - [22] Depending on the Agent you can get a lot of the low end ships (up to Exchequers) as rewards,(not LP rewards, as bonus rewards for finishing the mission!) which basicaly makes running thoes BP through R&D pointless, and my ammo pile has been growing almost exponentialy, as at least one of the complexes seems to drop 1000 round bricks of faction ammo far too often. (In fact I invariably leave complexes with more ammo than I start off with) which leaves me wondering just who buys all of the stuff thats suposedly being made? ------------------------------------------------------------ Irealyneedtoburnoffthat12packofredbullIjustdrankinonesetting If your too paranoid to play Eve, your not paranoid enough to play Eve
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.05.20 07:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Draquin Depending on the Agent you can get a lot of the low end ships (up to Exchequers) as rewards,(not LP rewards, as bonus rewards for finishing the mission!) which basicaly makes running thoes BP through R&D pointless, and my ammo pile has been growing almost exponentialy, as at least one of the complexes seems to drop 1000 round bricks of faction ammo far too often. (In fact I invariably leave complexes with more ammo than I start off with) which leaves me wondering just who buys all of the stuff thats suposedly being made? one of my Two ishkurs are from my agent... offered it in exchange for a pittance of tags, (just a couple) and a very small amount of components, 17k LP. got that offer again the other day... but turned it down this time. wonder if they have an offer for ishtar like that. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
50freefly	Posted - 2006.05.20 07:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu T1 industry in safe empire space has been killed by the morons who consider self-mined ore as 'free', and sell the stuff below cost. If you want to make profit with T1 items, move your operations to 0.0 space. There are plenty of places in 0.0 space where you can turn a profit from T1 manufacturing - both ships and modules. However, it will be risky, requires diplomacy with the alliance controlling the space, and you won't be buying minerals at rock bottom prices off the market either. But there is profit. Definitely. No, the T1 building industry has been killed by morons like ME who sell stuff cheap because they need cash. Feels guilty "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13)
Tachy	Posted - 2006.05.20 08:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Arlenik Emmanouelik This isn't about the ridiculous amounts of money that tech2 builders make. You have not much of a clue about T2 manufacturing in general, right? These days I get about 3/4 of my minerals from people sellings stuff way below their mineral value, mostly ships bigger than frigates. That's without placing any orders at ridiculously low prices. Why are you sorry to call an idiot an idiot? Does your vexor example include the time you spend hauling the minerals, compared to say, veldpsar mining? Tradegoods should not be sold by NPC because that generates Isk for free. POS fuel and T2 components should not be bought by NPC. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Avon	Posted - 2006.05.20 08:05:00 - [26] The tech1 industry was killed by bpc's, nothing else. As to moaning about people selling below cost .. wtf? Just buy it up and resell it. It isn't a problem, it is an opportunity. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon	Posted - 2006.05.20 08:06:00 - [27] The tech1 industry was killed by bpc's. As to moaning about people selling below cost .. wtf? Just buy it up and resell it. It isn't a problem, it is an opportunity. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Draquin	Posted - 2006.05.20 08:14:00 - [28] Not much point in trying to resell some of that junk, this is not like the HAC priceing where you can buy and re-escro the thing and gte a sale before the Escro drops back into your hanger, this is junk like 100+ run sales of crap frigs that are constantly being wall-marted to the point where the current actual price is just under minneral cost (making buying to recycle pointles)and buying up the underpriced hulls only seems to make room for even more hulls to be sold at prices lower than what you just bought the first lot for) ------------------------------------------------------------ Irealyneedtoburnoffthat12packofredbullIjustdrankinonesetting If your too paranoid to play Eve, your not paranoid enough to play Eve
Avon	Posted - 2006.05.20 08:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Draquin Not much point in trying to resell some of that junk, this is not like the HAC priceing where you can buy and re-escro the thing and gte a sale before the Escro drops back into your hanger, this is junk like 100+ run sales of crap frigs that are constantly being wall-marted to the point where the current actual price is just under minneral cost (making buying to recycle pointles)and buying up the underpriced hulls only seems to make room for even more hulls to be sold at prices lower than what you just bought the first lot for) Reselling works so long as you have the capital, will, and logistics. It is perfectly possible to completely control prices of selected modules. Trust me. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.05.20 08:50:00 - [30] Avon the market PvPer

R31D	Posted - 2006.05.20 09:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu T1 industry in safe empire space has been killed by the morons who consider self-mined ore as 'free', and sell the stuff below cost. QFT theres a lot of mathematically challenged people about. It doesn't help that most low-end named items (in their repective mission running areas) can be found on the market much cheaper than t1 (why people don't refine and sell I dunno as they'd make more money and it's not exactly harder) Free bumpage for all

wystler	Posted - 2006.05.20 11:08:00 - [32] Why not buy those goods priced at under mineral cost, all of them, and sell them on at a higher price? Its probably people who get them as mission reward and just want rid of them that sell them for such a price forum rules \| [email protected]

MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.05.20 11:26:00 - [33] Originally by: wystler Why not buy those goods priced at under mineral cost, all of them, and sell them on at a higher price? Its probably people who get them as mission reward and just want rid of them that sell them for such a price Oh noes! You have exposed my secret! -=====-
Cesisse	Posted - 2006.05.20 11:28:00 - [34] Find a region that is undersupplied, and has high prices for any given set of mods or ships. Make a home there. Set up trade relations with miners. Produce goods for set of items mentioned above. Sell them at profit. It's not that hard to do. People make trips to market hubs to restock due to price gouging in low sec regions. Thats where the industrialists have opportunity. Also, if you live ina low security region, being bale to produce your wom t1 mods etc for replacing attrition losses is quite time saving and well worth the costs of the bpo's.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.20 11:30:00 - [35] Originally by: MysticNZ Originally by: wystler Why not buy those goods priced at under mineral cost, all of them, and sell them on at a higher price? Its probably people who get them as mission reward and just want rid of them that sell them for such a price Oh noes! You have exposed my secret! No use TBH. Somebody will sell them at 10k when the item can sell for 500k. T1s grow on trees. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Khatred	Posted - 2006.05.20 11:46:00 - [36] Tech 1 is way more broken than Tech 2. In Tech 1 there is absolutely no difference between a dedicated manufacturer with a 2 mil sp pvp alt and a dedicated pvp'er with a 2 mil sp manufacturing alt. They can both do the exact same thing. _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
Tachy	Posted - 2006.05.20 13:26:00 - [37] Originally by: wystler Why not buy those goods priced at under mineral cost, all of them, and sell them on at a higher price? Its probably people who get them as mission reward and just want rid of them that sell them for such a price This does only work as long as you got trade slots for orders left. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Eriv Kendri	Posted - 2006.05.20 14:04:00 - [38] Hopefully with the new salvage rules, EvE will be moving away from mostly NPC built mods (ie loot) and more towards EvE's goal as a completley player driven game. Who is making all those NPC mods anyways - maybe Pirate and other Security Factions need to start buying T1 gear and ships - not sure on the implementation as the NPC buy/sell market is highly unrealistic atm - but it would definelty liven up the T1 market across the board and create new professions.
Draquin	Posted - 2006.05.20 16:26:00 - [39] Originally by: Tachy Originally by: wystler Why not buy those goods priced at under mineral cost, all of them, and sell them on at a higher price? Its probably people who get them as mission reward and just want rid of them that sell them for such a price This does only work as long as you got trade slots for orders left. and a nice wad of cash to pick up all of that stuff, all of this is partly compounded by the real movment of people in the game, and right now I seem keep bumping into a point where I can find a shortage of an Item, and by the time I get my BPO back from MR the market is saturated for that item and Im able to buy them and scrap them for materials for a quick sale of the minerals at under the so called base line and still make a slight profit. ------------------------------------------------------------ Irealyneedtoburnoffthat12packofredbullIjustdrankinonesetting If your too paranoid to play Eve, your not paranoid enough to play Eve
Gannymeade	Posted - 2006.05.20 17:09:00 - [40] I find the complaints rather shortsighted. I've been a dedicated producer for a long time now, and my profits are steady. I'm sitting on approximately 1 billion ISK in assets (ISK, BPOs, inventory, escrow, etc...) of which 95% was made purely through the T1 market. At this time, the only thing limiting my profits is the amount of max open orders I have. What I find in nearly all the complaints here is a total lack of understanding of capitalist economics, sprinkled with a heavy dose of impatience. Being a market supplier requires a study of the market...if you find you're not making a profit, I guarantee you that you're either selling the wrong thing, seling in the wrong place, or selling at the wrong time. You can't just set up show wherever you feel like it and expect people to flock to you...you actually have to take the time to find the market you want to exploit and then adjust your tactics as competitive opportunists try to muscle you out with lower margins. The only tip I'll share here that I find the most effective in dealing with the EVE economy is to be patient. Buy and Sell orders both often work their way through the system past the limited attention span of your competitors. Eventually, they'll run out of inventory and your margins will once again feed your coffers. Of course, you have to ask yourself...are you willing to wait? If not, consider lowering your margins. Are you Macy's or are you WalMart?

Noriath	Posted - 2006.05.20 17:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu T1 industry in safe empire space has been killed by the morons who consider self-mined ore as 'free', and sell the stuff below cost. That's not killed at all, that's just people who love manufacturing sticking it to people who expect others to do all the work and turn a quick profit from just running some factories/orders...
Torze	Posted - 2006.05.20 17:34:00 - [42] I'm not sure what T1 items the OP is/was building but, on some items I can make as much as 250% (that is not a typo). You just have to use the market information to figure out what people want and how many are supplying. I was selling some stuff that cost 13k for me to make for as much as 45k and was selling 300 a week. Eventually, other people moved in and there was a price war. That's when you need to find a new market for said item.
Cruz	Posted - 2006.05.20 17:50:00 - [43] Go produce tech 1 goods in 0.0 I sell vexors for 7mil isk regularly ;-) .................
Jennai	Posted - 2006.05.20 18:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Arlenik Emmanouelik Mind sharing some of your tech1 industry secrets with us please? are you talking 500mil per month in T1 in profits? or 500mil revenue? To bring up my vexor example again, thats about 225mil in revenue, but only about 30mil in profits. you can easily make over 1b/month profit by building BS with PE5, but even when I built modules with PE4 I still made several hundred million a month (it was a long time ago and I don't have exact numbers). frigates and cruisers have crap margin and generally aren't worth building, and anything that drops from local NPCs will probably be below mineral cost most of the time. if you live in oursulaert and try to sell armor hardeners, 1600 plates, and 350 rails, you're not going to make anything because serpentis drop all those constantly. swap those for various other modules (no I'm not going to tell you which ones) and you go from no profit to a decent amount. I also have a T2 ammo bpo (small pulse laser) that makes very little money because they build faster than they sell, and everyone's sitting on a stack of hundreds and constantly undercutting. ------- macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel macro miner killboard: www.anti-macro.com
Macdeth	Posted - 2006.05.20 19:17:00 - [45] People who say there's no profit in T1 fail to consider that a 5-10% profit margin on several billions of daily sales volume is an awful lot. I can lay a decent claim to having made Jita 4-4-CNAP the trade hub that it is today, mostly just by buying (& selling) tons of minerals, ores, and ice/ice products there for over a year, and selling several tens of battleships (in addition to oodles of BCs, cruisers, and such) there daily for months on end for maybe 3-8m profit each, starting at a time when two other stations in system were way busier. With NWO, I also made buy & sell orders for every moon mineral and basic/advanced material in an attempt to make that station the t2 trade hub to replace Yulai, mostly because I was too lazy to haul our moon mining stuff anywhere else... Anyway, it seems to have worked. Of course, once I lost my monopoly on about 25 of that station's factory slots with RMR, I went away to somewhere quieter because queues suck and I finally got sick of undercutting people every five minutes. I know for a fact that one of the other two huge volume T1 producers in Jita bailed at the same time I did, though I'm sure we've both been replaced several times over by smaller volume players. I have a long essay-type-thing I've worked on a speck but keep deleting, discussing how there's now little incentive for people, post-RMR to even attempt to make new empire trade hubs since the megaproducers who are capable of creating them nearly singlehandedly will simply be driven out by their own success (factory queues from other producers wasting slots for days on things like shuttles, nanofibers, etc) without reaping the huge profits I used to pull out of Jita as a reward, but I don't care enough to put the time in to avoid it looking like a big whinefest. For all I know, my difficulties come from that being all that it is... =)
Draquin	Posted - 2006.05.20 21:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Gannymeade . . . I've been a dedicated producer for a long time now, and my profits are steady. . . And here in lies the big catch. you have to be in the game building up an inventory of fully R&Ded BPOs to be able to cover any shifts in the game economy, and right now that takes time to do. ------------------------------------------------------------ Irealyneedtoburnoffthat12packofredbullIjustdrankinonesetting If your too paranoid to play Eve, your not paranoid enough to play Eve
Al Thorr	Posted - 2006.05.20 21:59:00 - [47] I agree with Avon . Bpcs killed a lot of the t1 economy. However I do ok in the t1 market. There is a living to be made. As with everything it takes a little looking out side the box. Regards Al Thorr "You cant polish a turd" - The new rendered font is living proof.
Doisho	Posted - 2006.05.20 21:59:00 - [48] Originally by: Draquin And here in lies the big catch. you have to be in the game building up an inventory of fully R&Ded BPOs to be able to cover any shifts in the game economy, and right now that takes time to do. My BPOs aren't fully R&Ded...in fact, very few of them even have 1 or more M.E. The cost savings for the production of most modules isn't worth the investment of time and R&D costs to pay for any significant M.E. level. No, once again, the myth plays larger than the reality.
neccette	Posted - 2006.05.20 22:20:00 - [49] Maybe people need to look outside the market hubs. Prices in those areas will be depressed because the sheer amount of people who live there and the massive production going on there. I remember back when I started, I found out that I could buy 250mm artillery in Ours for 15k each, take them 2 jumps(at the time) to Scolluzer and sell them for 50k each. that is a nice little profit, but I could have made even more cash by building them myself so I did just that and started a production account. While stuff may sell faster in the market hubs, and you may make more in quantity, it's better to spread your products around 2 or 3 systems (regions are even better) and mark it up a bit to get those people who do not want to fly further away and will pay more for an item if it is available locally.
Lygos	Posted - 2006.05.20 22:21:00 - [50] The only sort of ladder that is desirable between the markets is one that can be climbed socially. Otherwise it just gets grinded down to the same non-interdependent level of self employment that plagues the tech1 market. Tech 1 is just a trainer market to see how that end of the game might work. There's lots of non-grindy down time in those professions so you have time to build up your connections and work on your websites and such until you become a genuine middleman providing both products and services.

Beringe	Posted - 2006.05.20 22:40:00 - [51] The t1 market is fine, except for the BPCs. Profit margins would be better without them...however, that is not counting the profit gotten from selling those BPCs. It's real competition, and it takes smarts and dedication to do well (as it should be). In comparison, the t2 market is horribly broken, without any sort of competitive pricing and total lack of supply. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Lygos	Posted - 2006.05.20 23:25:00 - [52] Well, it hypercompetition, not healthy competition. Usually there are additional burdens placed on transaction costs for the buyers and sellers. Here, there is no disincentive for any party to hub. It's not like travelling an extra three miles to go to the rival grocery chain. Also, there are no less-tangible perks for buying at a premium from the small town shop than the large chain. EVE has a slight problem of too much information and not enough dynamically generated roadblocks. A fluxuating sales tax that was coded to target hubs would work seamlessly at increasing the breadth of the market, while at the same time making it more difficult for sellers to track the sales adjustments of their merchandise. The situation you are observing currently is that only two sellers are needed to drive the commodity below the practical industry profit margin. Thus many goods go for less than mineral value. Now of course it can only drop so much lower before a reseller or refiner can pick it up without incurring too much market sales tax penalty. The solution that can come from the players of course is war predicated on underbidding, and of course cartelism. We see entirely too little of both of those things. Maybe EVE need some conscientous Mercs to offer carefully priced contracts for harrassing rival seller groups. Bigger orgs could just dedicate small detachments for such harassment missions.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.05.21 00:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Avon Reselling works so long as you have the capital, will, and logistics. It is perfectly possible to completely control prices of selected modules. Trust me. Believe what he is saying. Take his advice. But for the love of all that is holy...don't ever, Ever TRUST Avon. Especially if he has an outpost in Nonni that he wants to sell you. Or jumpgates. Nyxus Once he presses "activate F1", Mr Titan is no longer your friend.


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