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Khadhir Hashul
Paladins of the Final Frontier
3
   |
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
There's a lot of rhetoric in CSM proposals about the 'new player experience'. How exactly does outright gimping new players, not just in their amount of options but in their ability to fight back against older players, contribute to this?
The powergrid/cpu cores take ten days, half of a newbie's trial. The entire Core Ship Operation cert takes up to 60 days. The armor/shield compensation skills take ten days apiece. The whole armour tanking tree takes 90 days in all. These are not reasonable amounts of time to anyone that hasn't already invested a great deal of time and interest into the game.
A lot of people (the usual apologists) are obviously going to respond to this with 'you don't need to have all core skills to V', but where's the question of need? People are meant to play a game for fun, and barriers to entry like this do nothing but make new players, opening whatever guides they find for the first time, decide 'oh well, I'm not playing this game for that long anyway'.
The majority of new players are therefore consigned to being either warm bodies in nullblocs or running level 3 missions until they quit.
I have spoken to a great deal of people who have quit EVE not because it 'wasn't the game for them' (this is also a common apologist argument), but because they simply realised one day that it just wasn't fun waiting for skills to train. Telling people who haven't played EVE about the train times makes them insist that they'd never play a game so mind-numbing. This is part of the reason I'm somewhat ashamed to try and get my friends into EVE at all.
Proposed solutions:
- Remove all core skills and reimburse them with skillpoints. Benefits remain the same.
- Give all new players enough skillpoints to either buy all core skills or specialise in one type of tank and weapons system.
- Remove skills entirely and replace them with implants or something, because paying money to look at a bar go up might as well be the definition of a farce.
'Core skills' worth removal, by level of annoyance:
- Anything related to fitting
- All capacitor skills
- All skills under the Navigation certificate
- All compensation skills (or merge them into a single skill)
As a side-effect, this will greatly increase accessibility to T2s and would make the game much more dynamic for newbies looking to get into things like covops, balanced by the cost of the hulls themselves. |
Nhod Whic
Nexus Industry Division
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 18:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
The throw-away gank alt fleets would blot out the sun(s).
I like it ! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
5345
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Under your logic OP... all skills should be gotten rid of. Turret/Missile support skills... ship skills... astrometric skills... industry skills... they all prevent a newbie from performing well.
The problem with your reasoning OP is that it doesn't stop until everyone can do everything equally with any ship, mod, or equipment in any activity from the very first second they start playing.
Stop looking at skills as something you NEED and something to work around. Find solutions to compensate for your lacking skills... be creative in the ways you fit and use your ships... because that is pretty much the point behind the skill system as is; you are supposed to learn how to use your head in order to play rather than rely on the "need more skills for max effectiveness!" mentality.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1223
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Under your logic OP... all skills should be gotten rid of. Turret/Missile support skills... ship skills... astrometric skills... industry skills... they all prevent a newbie from performing well.
The problem with your reasoning OP is that it doesn't stop until everyone can do everything equally with any ship, mod, or equipment in any activity from the very first second they start playing.
Stop looking and skills as something you NEED and something to work around. Find solutions to compensate for your lacking skills... be creative in the ways you fit and use your ships... because that is pretty much the point behind the skill system as is; you are supposed to learn how to use your head in order to play rather than rely on the "need more skills for max effectiveness!" mentality.
Exactly, I used to PvP just fine back in the day (mainly wormholes). Never really noticed myself killing or dying any faster than any other member of the fleet.
wasnt until after I retired from that corp that I realized (to my great embarassment as a dedicated Amarr-ship pilot) most of my fitting related skills, and skills involving capacitor, were at 3 or 4.
Skillpoints are less important than knwoing what you have and what your fighting, and what your options are because of it.
The training time prevents players from throwing on T2 or more expensive modules rigth of the bat and losing them, it forces you into weaker ships where you are REQUIRED to learn your own capabilities, so that once you ARE able to fit higher-grade equipment, you are MUCH less likely to lose it
in theory anyways, in practice its all noobs inviting noobs to their noob corp then telling them theya rent allowed to really play until every skill is V, because we let too many dumbasses interact with newbs and make them hate the game |
Khadhir Hashul
Paladins of the Final Frontier
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 01:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
@ShahFluffers
Yes, all skills should be gotten rid of. It's a stupid, outdated system only held up as a good thing by 'vets' whose only reason for supporting it is their own example of the gambler's fallacy, and the only people who would be willing to say something about it have quit the game a long time ago - probably because of people like you.
Since we can't do that, however, it would be much more helpful to new players to not make them spend more than what they need to get experience from the game. Almost all skills but those few core skills (I see a lot of people saying they take 'only' three months to train, but only idiots, people who played the game long ago and a few very determined people would be willing to sink $45 into a game just to have their 'core skills' train up, taking more than their trial period to get into ships that their nullblocs tell them to or else being consigned to mediocre support roles) would remain unchanged.
Literally the only thing keeping this game afloat at this point are alts.
@Nariya Kentaya
Cute anecdote.
Most new players would prefer to be able to learn what they're doing and get better on their own merit rather than have themselves artificially restricted in what is meant to be a 'sandbox'. It's just that simple.
I'm not even going to point out the contradiction of you supporting a system that you yourself admit doesn't work. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
5541
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 01:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Here's what I say to people who clamor "get rid of the skill system, it's anti newbie!".
Go play a MOBA, if that's what you want.
The skill system in this game is actually one it's more appealing features to me. It means I can progress even though I have a 60 hour a week job. It means that I don't have to grind out every last level of pig skinning and basket weaving.
But even I recognize that there must be some progression, that I should not be able to jump into any and every ship I want, just because I want it.
It's still an RPG, after all.
It's also a fairly handy way of providing a barrier to entry for the undesirable portions of the gaming community. The CoD babies, the instant gratification crowd, the Farmville "gamers", and the WoW level 90 boosters. Those people must be kept away from EVE at all costs.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Khadhir Hashul
Paladins of the Final Frontier
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 02:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Go play a MOBA, if that's what you want.
A lot of people do.
Quote:The skill system in this game is actually one it's more appealing features to me. It means I can progress even though I have a 60 hour a week job. It means that I don't have to grind out every last level of pig skinning and basket weaving.
I am not suggesting a grind. You might as well say that ISK is a grind, because you are attacking the most hilariously misplaced stramwan in the world. I dare you right now to go through any one of my posts and point out the point where I suggested turning the SP system into a normal XP grind system.
Go on. I'll wait.
Quote:But even I recognize that there must be some progression, that I should not be able to jump into any and every ship I want, just because I want it.
It's still an RPG, after all.
If you want to be 'conventional', I suggest playing World of Warcraft. Most people are much more willing to spend their time than their money on something, and that reflects itself in the player market.
You're also missing the point: I suggested removing core skills in order to allow new players to get into ships and quicker, not to remove train time entirely.
Quote:It's also a fairly handy way of providing a barrier to entry for the undesirable portions of the gaming community. The CoD babies, the instant gratification crowd, the Farmville "gamers", and the WoW level 90 boosters. Those people must be kept away from EVE at all costs.
You are literally, unironically supporting a Farmville game model on a game where it makes no sense. You are supporting what is essentially a mini-Farmville on the game. You are a Farmville gamer revelling in his elitism. You are the exact kind of person who plays Farmville: someone who can't afford to spend that much time on the game. You are the kind of person who would love Farmville if you could grind mini-games to make your rutabegas grow faster.
(I don't actually know how Farmville works, so this might be true.)
Elitism is not going to help your case here, because we are all playing what is basically and essentially a sandbox RTS (the only one that exists) with Farmville tacked awkwardly on top. Removing Farmville from this game would be nice, but I know that people like you and me have grown so many rutabagas that it's hard for us to throw the whole thing out.
My thesis remains the same:
New players do not want to wait months and pay money in the meanwhile to play Space Farmville to progress. If they're like you, and want to play Space Farmville, they can go back to Facebook to do it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
5542
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 02:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote:
My thesis remains the same:
New players do not want to wait months and pay money in the meanwhile to play Space Farmville to progress. If they're like you, and want to play Space Farmville, they can go back to Facebook to do it.
And my response remains the same.
If they want instant gratification, they aren't welcome in EVE in the first place.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Khadhir Hashul
Paladins of the Final Frontier
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 02:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Khadhir Hashul wrote:
My thesis remains the same:
New players do not want to wait months and pay money in the meanwhile to play Space Farmville to progress. If they're like you, and want to play Space Farmville, they can go back to Facebook to do it.
And my response remains the same. If they want instant gratification, they aren't welcome in EVE in the first place.
You can't read and you like playing Farmville with a skin, so I guess it wasn't worth arguing with you in the first place.
I really need to stop talking with Farmville fans. It's going to hurt my brain one of these days. |
Cannibal Kane
The Kane Inquisition
3826
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 11:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
That is a bit much is it not?
The Learning skill removal to me was awesome when I started and was happy about it's removal. If they had to remove another skill it should only be the most basic of core skills.
Even with basic core skills out of the way the new bro's will still struggle fitting ships without Weapons Upgrade and Advanced Weapons upgrade. The newbro will still have to train the relevant skills to fly a ship and fit it properly. I am almost convinced this request is for self serving reasons other then being altruistic and thinking of the newbie.
You need to consider the bad with the good. I think a change like this would be more bad then good.
Throw away awoxers and suicide alts would be rampant and do more damage if CCP is unable to effectively ban people recycling alts. Which is already an issue with people creating throw away alts.
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk |
Khadhir Hashul
Paladins of the Final Frontier
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 11:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:That is a bit much is it not?
The Learning skill removal to me was awesome when I started and was happy about it's removal. If they had to remove another skill it should only be the most basic of core skills.
Even with basic core skills out of the way the new bro's will still struggle fitting ships without Weapons Upgrade and Advanced Weapons upgrade. The newbro will still have to train the relevant skills to fly a ship and fit it properly. I am almost convinced this request is for self serving reasons other then being altruistic and thinking of the newbie.
You need to consider the bad with the good. I think a change like this would be more bad then good.
Throw away awoxers and suicide alts would be rampant and do more damage if CCP is unable to effectively ban people recycling alts. Which is already an issue with people creating throw away alts.
It would then probably make more sense to just start new players with ~500,000-1,000,000 SP allocated to fitting and capacitor skills. at least. The current 90k start is far too limiting.
I still think the compensation skills are an overbearing SP sink, though. |
Cerise Chan
Anime Masters
Pasta Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 07:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.
The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge |
Nhod Whic
Nexus Industry Division
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 11:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
The waiting time until you can fly anything that would be a threat solo is huge.
Six individual one week old newbies in thrashers make a mess out of most mission running BS, all with minimal training.
If they would train Social Interaction to at least III right off the bat, they would be much better off.
Cerise Chan wrote:Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.
The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1232
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 20:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nhod Whic wrote:The waiting time until you can fly anything that would be a threat solo is huge. Six individual one week old newbies in thrashers make a mess out of most mission running BS, all with minimal training. If they would train Social Interaction to at least III right off the bat, they would be much better off. Cerise Chan wrote:Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.
The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge
If brand new characters werent a threat to anything, we woudlnt have suicide gankers all over highsec killing anythign with mroe module value than hull value |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3132
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 20:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote:@ShahFluffers
Yes, all skills should be gotten rid of. It's a stupid, outdated system only held up as a good thing by 'vets' whose only reason for supporting it is their own example of the gambler's fallacy
this thread is going nowhere. |
Cannibal Kane
The Kane Inquisition
3828
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 22:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:That is a bit much is it not?
The Learning skill removal to me was awesome when I started and was happy about it's removal. If they had to remove another skill it should only be the most basic of core skills.
Even with basic core skills out of the way the new bro's will still struggle fitting ships without Weapons Upgrade and Advanced Weapons upgrade. The newbro will still have to train the relevant skills to fly a ship and fit it properly. I am almost convinced this request is for self serving reasons other then being altruistic and thinking of the newbie.
You need to consider the bad with the good. I think a change like this would be more bad then good.
Throw away awoxers and suicide alts would be rampant and do more damage if CCP is unable to effectively ban people recycling alts. Which is already an issue with people creating throw away alts. It would then probably make more sense to just start new players with ~500,000-1,000,000 SP allocated to fitting and capacitor skills. at least. The current 90k start is far too limiting. I still think the compensation skills are an overbearing SP sink, though.
I really think you are assigning way to much importance on SP. Ability to use what you have is more important.
A new person knowing how to handle himself with the limited sp he has will kill a person with alot more SP. People need to stop this crap about I need to wait for a skill before I can do something.
Which is why I think the request has more to do with personal entitlement and goals then it does "helping the New guy".
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk |
Dont Tasemebro
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 21:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
bullshit. You can have the core skills trained to 4 in less than a month. Stop treating Eve like some other ****** MMO that focuses on racing to max level. Stop putting so much weight on the value of SP. |
Nariya Kentaya
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1245
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 18:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Already said it once in this thread, will say it again, If SP was a problem than trial-account infinite Gank Alts woudlnt be a thing.
but they are very much a thing, so obviously a new character has no trouble posing a threat. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
216
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 09:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Skill training time is all about level 5s. Training level 5 takes almost 6x the time it takes to train levels 1 to 4.
But with some exceptions, level 5's bonus to whatever the skill does is nice, but not game-changing.
As an example, few people train Advanced Weapon Upgrades straight to level 5. They'll go to 3 or 4 and switch to another skill, leaving 5 for later. There aren't that many fits that work with AWU 5 but not with AWU 4.
Unless they want to fly Marauders or Dreads.
So it's really all about level 5 prerequisites, that are clearly intended time sinks before players (new and old alike) gain access to new gear.
CCP already waived level 5 prereqs on some skills, for example racial battleship 5 for carriers or PG management 5 for thermodynamics (overheating). They might decide to lower some other level 5 prereqs in the future (T2 ships and modules come to mind).
TL;DR: the training time of core skills isn't really 'gimping' anyone. Training to level 4 is fast and almost always enough to be 'competitive': player skill is much more important (and yes, it does take months and even years to train that).
Rather, it's level 5 prereqs that actually set the 'pace' at which players (new and old) gain access to new toys. It's CCP's call to balance short-term satisfaction vs. long-term commitment, it's a tricky job but their track record shows that they're not afraid to make changes. |
Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated
404 Alliance Not Found
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 00:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'd be in favour of a little tinkering. Stick AWU behind WU4 instead of 5, for instance.
Not entirely related, but the destroyer/BC skill split was pretty bad from a new player perspective, I think. If it had to be done, it should have been accompanied by making the racial BC skills lower ranked.
However, I'm broadly happy with the skill system as is. What's most important is that new players are educated by other, more experienced players about how you don't have to have many 5s to be useful.
I wouldn't object if CCP gave new players an additional leg up though. |
Moosha Andedare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.11 20:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think something that the slippery slope arguments ignore is that part of the novelty of skills is that they represent a choice. SP is a resource that builds over time and you have a bit of a control over that resource with things like implants and remaps, but that's as far as it goes.
The problem with core skills is that there aren't any situations where you don't want them. They're so important and necessary for flying any ship in the game that they might as well not exist. Other skills like weapon upgrades involve some kind of meaningful choice. For example if you're planning to go into industry or trade there's not much of a benefit to be gained from them. But try to find a career path for a new player that doesn't benefit from core skills in any way, and you'll see what I mean.
Without the element of choice -- where based on your early experiences with the game and a desired career / gameplay path you decode which skills are worth getting and prioritize accordingly -- skills become a meaningless and artificial barrier.
That's why I think it's okay to follow the OP's proposal for core skills, as there's a clear line you can draw that avoids the slippery slope argument of getting rid of all skills.
We already give new players a certain amount of SP. Why not give them enough to have all the core skills to lV or V? What level of meaningful gameplay do we lose by letting them start at V instead of III?
I can tell you the way I felt a few weeks into this game was "I wish I had created an account 3 months ago and just let it run until now." Coincidentally it took me about three months before I started actually enjoying the game play and didn't feel completely gimped when doing basic new player activities. CCP was lucky enough that I'm persistent and that I happened to be busy enough with work that I ended up waiting out the three months. Now I have two paying accounts and will probably end up with more down the road.
I came very close to can calling after my first month of subscription, and in fact two of the friends I started the game with already quit for that exact same reason. Had they had the skills you get 3 months into the game, I'm pretty sure they would still be playing. |
Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.12 07:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Moosha Andedare wrote:I came very close to can calling after my first month of subscription, and in fact two of the friends I started the game with already quit for that exact same reason. Had they had the skills you get 3 months into the game, I'm pretty sure they would still be playing.
I find it funny that EVE is one of those games where people think they can go 'we didn't want those players anyway' or 'you need to do [insert specific task here] for three months' in response to an argument like this. I've had at least five people quit on me because of the skill system.
I always laugh a little whenever I hear CCP's getting its talent poached or being forced to lay off another fifty people, because the only way it's surviving is by underpaying wide-eyed fans (according to CCP's balance sheets, their salary expenditure per capita is around $55,000 a year, less than Iceland's GDPPC in 2007). They're screwed the moment their secretaries form a union, unless they think up a way to get people to make three cyno alts.
Not that anything's going to change until the community's toxic 'working as intended' mentality changes, of course. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
223
|
Posted - 2014.05.12 09:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote:I find it funny that EVE is one of those games where people think they can go 'we didn't want those players anyway' or 'you need to do [insert specific task here] for three months' in response to an argument like this. I've had at least five people quit on me because of the skill system.
Not that anything's going to change until the community's toxic 'working as intended' mentality changes, of course.
There's nothing wrong about making a hardcore game that discourages casual gameplay and just isn't for everybody.
Moar players doesn't necessarily mean either a better game or more profits for CCP. Having a strong and unique vision seems to have worked better for the past 11 years. |
Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 04:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Khadhir Hashul wrote:I find it funny that EVE is one of those games where people think they can go 'we didn't want those players anyway' or 'you need to do [insert specific task here] for three months' in response to an argument like this. I've had at least five people quit on me because of the skill system.
Not that anything's going to change until the community's toxic 'working as intended' mentality changes, of course. There's nothing wrong about making a hardcore game that discourages casual gameplay and just isn't for everybody. Moar players doesn't necessarily mean either a better game or more profits for CCP. Having a strong and unique vision seems to have worked better for the past 11 years.
Less players mean no game at all.
Or no updates, at the very least, which for a game like EVE would be death sentence. |
Neus
Dynamite Mining Division
30
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 12:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote: How is a casual version of Farmville 'hardcore'?
This game has a different approach and it's not for everyone. Complaining about every point of view that is different from yours will not bring anything further to your cause. It's evident that many people disagree with your presentation; not particularly the need for it to be reconsider, but nor did you provide a level headed explanation based on input from others.
If you think about it, new players also leave the game for other reasons. Reading outrageous rantings of how new players don't get advantages, when to be honest Eve Online has listened openly and is looking to revamp the new player experience.
Your point of view has been noted and the need for you to argue seems to go beyond the game itself (i.e. Farmville)
*Looks around*
"Moderator? Can we get a moderator please...? We have a customer who seems to have lost their DAMN MIND and needs help finding it!" :P
|
Neus
Dynamite Mining Division
30
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 12:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Moosha Andedare wrote:
I can tell you the way I felt a few weeks into this game was "I wish I had created an account 3 months ago and just let it run until now." Coincidentally it took me about three months before I started actually enjoying the game play and didn't feel completely gimped when doing basic new player activities. CCP was lucky enough that I'm persistent and that I happened to be busy enough with work that I ended up waiting out the three months. Now I have two paying accounts and will probably end up with more down the road.
I came very close to can calling after my first month of subscription, and in fact two of the friends I started the game with already quit for that exact same reason. Had they had the skills you get 3 months into the game, I'm pretty sure they would still be playing.
So what your saying is that you almost stopped playing because you were impatient and this style of play didn't suit the previous MMO's you've played, but your friends did...Ok, obviously the issue of paying for 3 months didn't seem to bother you as the OP who originally posted tried to make the case because now your looking at getting multiple accounts.
CCP I am sure feels so very thankful and lucky they have your support and not the two friends that don't have the patience like you do...very proud of you...now go get cleaned up for dinner...
Is this thread become some "come cry on my tissue"? I mean really, can there possibly be a presentation worth a damn if your going to go on and on about how new players deserve more? This has nothing to do with appeasing veterans of the game, this has nothing to do with cost per how long you can be efficient to compete. All this has to do, from as far as I have read, is a baseless rant regarding the fact genuine new players can't get into the game faster....
How would you suggest, under your said system for new players, they would fare in the mix of skilled strategists already here?
How would you prevent swarms of veterans taking advantage of your new system?
Sounds like a CEO of a Corporation wants an easy way to create fast alts or a system to build a corporation built around quantity over quality. This fact I am basing off the weak attempt to present your claim.
Frankly, you opened this up and presented your initial idea, to not further work with the community around some of those who are flat against you or those who partially see your point...you've now leaned into ranting and quoting anyone who presents their fair opinion on a lack luster effort you started.
You're as much of the problem in this thread as those you've sarcastically snorted at! |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
258
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 12:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Another couple of points.
First is: as far as actual gameplay is concerned, SP makes very little difference. Lvl 4 missions are exactly the same gameplay as Lvl 1, mining in a hulk is exactly the same as mining in a venture, PVPing in a battleship is very similar to PVPing in a frigate (tactics differ obviously, but it's still warp/move/target/point/shoot/repair etc.).
Second is: if you're playing with others, SP isn't so important. No gang or fleet will say no to an extra tackle, scout or dps. Yes, FCs will say 'f*k off' to somebody that has the SP for a HAC but doesn't want to fly one because he's lazy or risk-averse, but I've never heard an FC say that to an enthusiastic and reasonably smart newbro that just wants to help and get involved with the 'big boys'.
SP seem to matter most to solo players, but this is an MMO. |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
390
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 06:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jawls Rohn wrote:I'd be in favour of a little tinkering. Stick AWU behind WU4 instead of 5, for instance.
Not entirely related, but the destroyer/BC skill split was pretty bad from a new player perspective, I think. If it had to be done, it should have been accompanied by making the racial BC skills lower ranked.
However, I'm broadly happy with the skill system as is. What's most important is that new players are educated by other, more experienced players about how you don't have to have many 5s to be useful.
I wouldn't object if CCP gave new players an additional leg up though.
TBH I'd be behind a lot of tinkering.
These people are not "some guy just up from the surface". They are podpilots.
If CCP has deemed for instance that the core skills to fly a rifter are "such and such" why not start new pilots WITH THOSE SKILLS who are minmatar ? Level 3 mastery of the rifter or some other frigate would not be out of line imo.
I will still hurt them so severely that they will quit the game in shame with a PILGRIM (in caps!) anyway.
Start them along their racial path and stop trying to gimp everyone else ?
Their lack of experience will still get them owned - no matter how much you change the game itself - you cannot give them experience.
CSM7 Skype Leak
|
Anthar Thebess
541
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 12:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think , new characters.
First on each account , during creation should get a possible scheme to choose:
- miner
- industry
- hauling
- gunnery specialist
- missile specialist
- drone specialist
This will be good for eve:
- new players will be capable of doing something
- more players -> more fun for others / more isk for ccp
Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies
The Unthinkables
2380
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 13:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cerise Chan wrote:Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.
The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge
The number of ganks done by characters less than a month old to characters significantly older than that suggests that you are talking out of your ass.
Character skill is much, much less important that player knowledge of how to apply that skill effectively. And that can only be learned by actually playing the game.
You can see the effects of giving people too much too fast on killboards all over. Some dude buys a bunch of PLEX, buys a shiny high skilled character, buys a shiny blinged out pirate battleship, and promptly flies into lowsec and gets popped like a tool. It happens frequently. Why? Because PLEX can buy you a lot of things, but experience with how to effectively apply all those skill points you have is NOT one of them.
The skill system is slow because it gives new players precisely that - time to figure out what all those damned skill points are really doing for them. The problem is that instant gratification crowd that sees that vital experience as a burden rather than a benefit.
GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players.
Schr+¦dinger's Hotdropper |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
761
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 13:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote:Less players mean no game at all.
Or no updates, at the very least, which for a game like EVE would be death sentence. This 'argument' pops up in almost every thread. It's an incredibly silly argument because:
1) it has nothing to do with the gameplay
2) it could be used to support basically anything, from pink Hello Kitty style spaceships ('just think of all the little girls that would sub!!!') to hardcore avatar p0rn ('just think of all the pervs that would sub!!!')
3) while anybody that has played for a couple hundred hours can have something interesting to say about EVE - the game, nobody except CCP management has enough information to make meaningful comments on EVE - the business
TL;DR: Please focus on good ideas for better gameplay, not crap ideas just 'to get moar subs'. |
Iain Cariaba
In Over Our Heads
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 20:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Google "Malcanis' Law"
If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1353
|
Posted - 2014.06.29 00:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
Min/Maxer tears. Good.
The Tears Must Flow |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation
DemSal Unlimited
1280
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 22:08:00 -
[34] - Quote
I don't support this idea. The reasons have been well stated already, highest one being the Gank fleets.
On the other hand . . .
I do like the idea of character choice mentioned earlier.
Even add 'tackle' as one of the initial professions.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 12:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quote:People are meant to play a game for fun, and barriers to entry like this do nothing but make new players, opening whatever guides they find for the first time, decide 'oh well, I'm not playing this game for that long anyway'. When I started Eve the incredibly deep, varied & long skill queue was one of the biggest attractions to the game. It creates a real sense of goal setting and a meaningful reward for making a choice in the game of what to train next.
I also think you're overstating the need for Core skills to all 5's. 3's and 4's are quick - and usually a ship only begs for a 5 in a particular skill. I definitely don't think Navigation skills should be handed out like candy. They are a real choice in the game that should not be watered down.
I agree that keeping paying players benefits us all, but I don't think your proposal is the way to go. I mean, what's next -- free monocles for all?? |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
386
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 14:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:I think , new characters.
First on each account , during creation should get a possible scheme to choose:
- miner
- industry
- hauling
- gunnery specialist
- missile specialist
- drone specialist
This will be good for eve:
- new players will be capable of doing something
- more players -> more fun for others / more isk for ccp
This idea is actually pretty solid. Not only does it solve a little of the day zero pain, it gives new players the ability to test out the various things the game has to offer before committing to a given path. Yes, I know, that's what the current starter area missions are for, but even with those, you're looking at a couple of days training for each, which feels like a lot to a new player. With this proposal, it's as quick as make another character, pick a new path, log in, start the feels.
It also avoids Malcanis' Law in it's most extreme form. This is because most older players rolling alt accounts are going to stuff their heads with high end implants anyway (ones new players can't afford), which means that said alts would only have a day or two advantage at most, when compared to the current system. Not much, when you consider that said alts are usually purpose built, and focus trained. |
Iain Cariaba
Veritas Theory
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 18:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:With this proposal, it's as quick as make another character, pick a new path, log in, start the feels.
Thus is the flaw. There's already so much whining over alleged throw-away alts that this would make the carebear population's heads explode in indignation.
Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
394
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 01:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:With this proposal, it's as quick as make another character, pick a new path, log in, start the feels. Thus is the flaw. There's already so much whining over alleged throw-away alts that this would make the carebear population's heads explode in indignation.
I can see that point, but to be quite frank, what doesn't make their heads explode? People make "throw-away alts" now. How would a day or two worth of training time make that any worse? |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
1602
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
If it were to be done, I'd support the removal of the increase ships PG/CPU fitting skills. They're short but also so mandatory they're pointless. Ships should just have the grid and CPU.
"Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."
-Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM
Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
Sean Apollo
Rising Storm.
The Unthinkables
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 13:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:If it were to be done, I'd support the removal of the increase ships PG/CPU fitting skills. They're short but also so mandatory they're pointless. Ships should just have the grid and CPU.
Why take away something that's such big part of the game though? Eve is a game of time the more time you put into it the better you become. If someone chooses to use his/her time to train fitting skills then he should have more fitting options.
Here's an example:
Pilot 1 has decided he want to use time to get his fitting skills up
Pilot 2 has chosen to train gunnery skills and can now use t2 guns.
Both these pilots meet in low sec in a plex both have the same PvP experience and are both using the same ship. Being brawler fits they go at each other. pilot 2 is tearing through pilot 1's shields and is about to get into pilot 1's armor, when he gets there it is taking quite a long time to make a dent in his armor while his own armor tank is dropping faster, why? Because pilot 1 trained fitting skills he was able to squeeze on a 1600 plate and fit T2 hardeners. Pilot 2 had a very tight fit and had to do a 800 plate and meta 4 hardeners to be able to fully fit his ship.
So what's my point? My point is the impact of the different skills. It adds so much variety and makes the game more fun.
Imagine if we were talking about gunnery support skills. It makes a huge impact to the experience of eve, and adds so much variety. I think you would only hurt the game by removing them.
Sorry for the long post, I hope I was able to make my point.
Most people hate me... |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
2098
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:50:22 -
[41] - Quote
Khadhir Hashul wrote:
(message truncated, no coherent argument detected)
The problem here is that you want to start out at the top. That's not how EVE works. Your SP isn't the only thing that matters. It's mostly how YOU fly the ship, not how your character does.
You NEED that skill training time to learn how to effectively play the game at each level.
Flying a HAC is not the same as flying a T1 Cruiser. Flying a Frigate of any kind is completely different from nearly everything else.
If you ask me, I think everyone should be at "all skills to Lvl5" on SiSi, just to show players who think like you exactly how wrong you truly are when you speculate things like this.
This is one of the many reasons CCP won't let guys who take a year out of the game "buy back" their "lost" skill points. You need to progress, naturally, or you will end up hating the game and quitting. Removing all skills would require a pretty massive overhaul of the game, and lots of stuff would be broken. Not to mention the ability to immediately jump into a carrier the day you start playing would make the game incredibly boring.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
|
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
146
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:24:43 -
[42] - Quote
OH no you mean i cant start with max skills!!!!!! i guess other mmos should let you start with the best gear in the game at lvl 1 Too
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
|
Brisco County
Shadows of Rebellion
The Bastion
100
|
Posted - 2014.10.07 04:22:51 -
[43] - Quote
they should start you out with purpz and leganderiez 2! |
XxGITxX
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 07:08:23 -
[44] - Quote
Just be glad that you started playing after they removed learnkng skills. Kids these days don't realise how lucky they are :D |
Jenna Olgidar
OutLawed Country Inc.
Outlaw Nation.
5
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 14:02:24 -
[45] - Quote
Yeah I Don't think giving everyone 20 mil SP making the game better for anyone.
I think that all Standard Core skills should be injected from the start. i.e. mechanic, shield operation, etc
now i think new players should start with some unallicated skill points. like maybe 3 to 4 mil. I believe that is enough for someone to get into a ship of there choice and possibly of fitting.
however with someone that knows what there doing they can take them skill points make a cyno alt or gang squad with trial a players and go camp a gate or do something and cause massive problems.
-Olga
So yeah like my post.
-Olga
|
Signal11th
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1442
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 14:41:38 -
[46] - Quote
One of the most idiotic ideas I've heard recently. Personally it's one of the major reasons I play EVE the fact I don't have to be some basement dwelling window licker who can spend all day killing chickens.
Powered by-áreaTh-áFilter V1.23 "All posts by this pilot are personal held views and not representitive of-áany-ácorp or alliance I am currently a member of. Like I'd give a-ásh*t anyway.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster.
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
3690
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 01:17:46 -
[47] - Quote
The three skills I would endorse changing start with CPU Management and PG Management, as ships are just crippled without them. They'd still be high priorities to train at 1% (with the base CPU and PG of ships changed to preserve their current stats at level 5).
The final skill is AWU, which I would gate behind WU 4 instead of WU 5.
These changes would help gankers a little, but less than people seem to think, as most ganking is not done by low skilled characters any more. The changes would also indirectly harm us, as lowskilled haulers and miners would be more able to fit a tank to their ships.
I'd be for the change for what it would do to new players and (as with any change to the game) I'd also seek to exploit it a little, but that would be a minor factor.
I don't endorse wholesale removal of the core skills, just adjustment of the absolutely mandatory ones.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation
DemSal Unlimited
1972
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 03:50:02 -
[48] - Quote
I have been spending time in the Rookie Help channel and listening to the new players. They are not complaining about skills, they are trying to figure out how to fly the ship, how to make some isk, why autopilot is a bad idea and where did all the asteroids go.
No, a 20 million sp starter pack would not be for the new player, no matter how you pretty up the rhetoric. It would be for the alt, the second character when you know what skills you wish you had trained the first time. The New Player Experience needs work. That is why I am in there listening and taking notes. But the learning curve is not solved by using a catapult to launch them half way up the side of the cliff face.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
|
The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective
Illusion of Solitude
92
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 10:41:51 -
[49] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:I have been spending time in the Rookie Help channel and listening to the new players. They are not complaining about skills, they are trying to figure out how to fly the ship, how to make some isk, why autopilot is a bad idea and where did all the asteroids go.
No, a 20 million sp starter pack would not be for the new player, no matter how you pretty up the rhetoric. It would be for the alt, the second character when you know what skills you wish you had trained the first time. The New Player Experience needs work. That is why I am in there listening and taking notes. But the learning curve is not solved by using a catapult to launch them half way up the side of the cliff face.
m
What about a better range of civilian modules? Things that will only go onto a rookie ship but are faster than skilling to an extent within the first week. Also easier access to these for that time?
|
Longtom McGregor
Perkone
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 18:42:31 -
[50] - Quote
Set new character skills to absolutely zero starting out
new characters can not even leave a station until they've figured out how to train frigates to 1
Cant mine until they've figured out how to train mining to 1
Set new player bank accounts to zero.
I was shocked at how many skills my little new player had...
This should not be... |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
635
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 18:50:08 -
[51] - Quote
The Hamilton wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:I have been spending time in the Rookie Help channel and listening to the new players. They are not complaining about skills, they are trying to figure out how to fly the ship, how to make some isk, why autopilot is a bad idea and where did all the asteroids go.
No, a 20 million sp starter pack would not be for the new player, no matter how you pretty up the rhetoric. It would be for the alt, the second character when you know what skills you wish you had trained the first time. The New Player Experience needs work. That is why I am in there listening and taking notes. But the learning curve is not solved by using a catapult to launch them half way up the side of the cliff face.
m
What about a better range of civilian modules? Things that will only go onto a rookie ship but are faster than skilling to an extent within the first week. Also easier access to these for that time?
I can support a better range of civilian items, gives newbies a cheap even for them way to try things out if they arent sure what they want to do.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation
DemSal Unlimited
2090
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 03:29:41 -
[52] - Quote
I will ask about better civ stuff when module tiericide hits (if I am still on CSM)
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1635
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 07:19:44 -
[53] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:I will ask about better civ stuff when module tiericide hits (if I am still on CSM)
m
Yeah, what happened with module tiericide? Haven't heard anything since that first dev blog.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
26780
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 07:34:31 -
[54] - Quote
core skills are the most OP skills by rank, for just how many ships and activities they influence.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
|
Signal11th
1520
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 16:20:20 -
[55] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:core skills are the most OP skills by rank, for just how many ships and activities they influence.
and also amongst the easiest to get. Most new players just suffer from the same mind set that most kids have recently, get the biggest thing possible for the least amount of work.
Eve is enjoyable because if you put the effort in you get the rewards.
Powered by reaTh Filter V1.23 "All posts by this pilot are personal held views and not representitive of any corp or alliance I am currently a member of. Like I'd give a sh*t anyway.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and wo
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
26989
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 17:06:59 -
[56] - Quote
wait that's what i said. theyre OP because their rank is low.
as you become more of an experienced player, the only people left to kill you are less experienced players. its not so crazy to think less experienced players can harm you. im pretty sure the purpose of SP is not invulnerability.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
|
Jurico Elemenohpe
14th Legion
The Bloc
64
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 04:39:44 -
[57] - Quote
Wouldn't we need new skills for dreads.
and marauders.
and hacs
and t3s
and recon
and covops
and eaf
and probably some other ships because they have fitting skill requirement prereqs? |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
185
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 16:13:45 -
[58] - Quote
Just people that want it easier because they don't want to waste time to train Capacitor skills to 5 in order to better use their cap for higher regen, capacity, gun/tank/ab usage.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29357
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 16:43:14 -
[59] - Quote
I've said it in a lot of places now, and I'll say it again here. I disagree with skill prerequisites for T2 ships being so extensive. Their selection is hasty and don't represent a strong foundation for their ships. Seriously, the person who picked out the skills to comprise prerequisites... do they even play?
The message to new players is very clear: if you want this ship, you must pay us for some months of subscription. It's one of the most blatant examples of money-for-stuff in EVE.
Along the left side of that table you'll see a number, which is the total training time multiplier for the level V skills required as prerequisites. There's a pretty clear correlation between time and ship size. "specialization is specialization hurr durr more time," is about the depth of thought behind the list.
Couple things I think should be changed:
skill level I prerequisites to allow T2 ships to undock within 2 weeks at most (for the Marauder, for example). This way, rookies who choose the hasty route to a shiny T2 ship get what they want, and also get what they trained for: a weak ship.
OR
devs spend more time creating a thoughtful list of prerequisites that represent a solid foundation of skills for the same amount of training as the dumb / current list.
OP's gripe about core skills being responsible for some type of rift between themselves and veterans is bollocks, as it's one of the core mechanics of EVE. However, the structure of skills laid out in ship prerequisites is bollocks, too.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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