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Sgt Drill
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Posted - 2003.09.22 10:03:00 -
[1]
Who in CCP found out that the mamoth was so much better than anything else ? it had the best manouverability, but now it is almost, as good as the Bestowher. and there is almost 3 skill lvl diffrence between them.
The only reason to train to fly this ting was that it was a realy good combat hauler. But that has been taken away. so it is worth nothing
My advice right now is not train for flying it it is a waste of time. Train ammar or Galante (lvl5)
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Fritz Ionar
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Posted - 2003.09.22 10:14:00 -
[2]
If they ever get aroud to fixing the skill bonus it might atleast be relativley fast...
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The services YOU need, WE provide! |
Needo
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Posted - 2003.09.22 10:39:00 -
[3]
I think it was fixed! 
But agility was hammered. 
___________________________________________
You are never alone in schizophrenia.
___________________________________________ |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.22 10:42:00 -
[4]
Industrials != Frigates
They are as big as battleships, they shouldn't really handle much better. OKAY?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Ka'loor
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Posted - 2003.09.22 11:27:00 -
[5]
Jim Raynor i agree with you for realism purposes, for gameplay ones i must disagree totally.....why train up to mammoth, if the Bestower is better.....same brick agility, more cargo......duhhhh
I am not calling out to get the Bestower nerfed too...EVE had had enough nerfs....
Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself.
Better to die with honor, than to live in shame. |
Mynobe Soletae
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Posted - 2003.09.22 12:57:00 -
[6]
Actually, the Bestower is as big as a battleship, the Badgers aren't. They're quite small.
In any case, the only advantage other indies have now is perhaps a slightly smaller collision box. The Bestower would still get stuck the most, but otherwise they're all slow now. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.22 13:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 22/09/2003 13:04:15
I could argue Badger MK2 vs Bestower, or even worse Iteron MK5 vs Bestower.
Due to the fact CCP didn't feel like putting more than one Amarr industrial in the game we're stuck with a bestower that requires only a rank1 skill that scales to pretty much outclass every other indy in the game as far as skill training/cargo capacity.
Industrials aren't supposed to have good agility, they ARE as big as battleships, even the Badger MK2 is just about the size of my Raven. Take a look for yourself, I own both ships and I can tell you they aren't very different in size, Raven is just a lot wider.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Khonsu
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Posted - 2003.09.22 15:27:00 -
[8]
Why is agility such a big issue in space? There's no drag, and very little influence from gravity...
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Wodka
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Posted - 2003.09.22 16:36:00 -
[9]
not a single ship has boosters on its side im wondering how a ship could move in the first place :P.
but besides from that indys are huge so its normal that they would turn slow.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.22 16:50:00 -
[10]
 Quote:
not a single ship has boosters on its side im wondering how a ship could move in the first place :P.
but besides from that indys are huge so its normal that they would turn slow.
magnetic fields of course!
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.22 17:14:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Cao Cao on 22/09/2003 17:15:45
Khonsu,
For one, yes agility REALLY matters in space. Remember from physics about force and mass - gravity is just a force that acts upon mass. In order for a thing travelling at a constant speed to change direction or stop or go the other way, you need to apply the right force from the right direction. In space, you have only lost ONE force that acts upon your ship ... but that doesn't mean you don't need force to make your ship move the other way.
Thus, the placement, strength, ability of a ships boosters (working with the mass of the ship) to direct the ship determines its agility. This would explain why the armageddon is so god awful at turning :)
As for your point about the mammoth, it was turning faster than a shuttle. Ummm - naahh that's just wrong. It still has MUCH better agility than a bestower or a badger, trust me.
But it would be better if bestower lost a low slot, upped its bonus to 7%, and the mammoth got a fourth low slot. That would work IMO.
Oh yeah ... and the mammoth speed bonus WAS fixed.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.22 17:48:00 -
[12]
"not a single ship has boosters on its side im wondering how a ship could move in the first place :P."
... Well, Griffin has this really odd multi-directional thruster, but surprisingly handles worse than other Caldari frigates. ;s
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Troezar
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Posted - 2003.09.22 18:14:00 -
[13]
My Mammoth now does 445 m/s from 371M/s with exact same set up as before the patch but accelerates slower. Handling is also now not good but it was too much before. looked silly it was so agile! I miss the agility but the increase in speed is not much use for hauling as I use insta dock bookmarks. For long hauling it may be useful but why nor use something with more cargo or that can fit a MWD. Given a choice now of Minmatar indy lvl 4 or Amarr lvl 1 and a Bestower I would not fly a Mammoth
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.22 23:08:00 -
[14]
With the agility bug of the indys fixed we need either
- a nerfing of the bestower - which is now even more superior
or
- a upgrade (+ low slots, + powergrid) for ALL other indys (with the *possible* exeption of the iterion m5).
Otherwise the amount of bestowers of the total indys in eve will rise from ~75% to ~95%.
I would really like to know when the designer responsible was thinking there - the bestower was even in the beta the maior indy. You must be blind not to see that it is (too) superior and either must be nerfed or other indys must be upgraded.
free speech not allowed here |
Kennian
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Posted - 2003.09.23 00:00:00 -
[15]
There is currently <with the exception of the iteron five and badger two> to fly anything other than a bestower. The iteron because it's simply the best, and the badger for it's powerful shielding. The rest of the indies are quite simply pointless. the Badger 2 used to make a great combat indi, able to zip in and out of battles, and made a great ninja miner for us freelancers in 0.0 space, digging up the bis slowly but surely.
now, though...the turn and accelerate so slowly that it's a death sentance. it takes upwards of 20 seconds for my badger to reach max speed. truely sad, realy...
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Insulter
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Posted - 2003.09.23 00:26:00 -
[16]
Whoa! Never realized the maller was so big..twice the size of a moa.
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Caillech
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Posted - 2003.09.23 01:09:00 -
[17]
mammoth got it speed bonus fixed, making it the fastest industrial, now industrial are big ships they arent supposed to be as agile as frigates ..nothing is :o
the problem with mammoth ..and other level4 indys, is that the bestower is overpowered ..and theres not alot of advantages to train the 4+ days to be able to fly level4
something needs to be done .. dont have to nerf the bestower ..but atleast make the level4 indys better
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Caillech
Director of Sexual Healing
2003.08.22 16:18:53 -----
Your 1200mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Small Secure Container, wrecking for 1102.9 damage
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Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2003.09.23 06:54:00 -
[18]
when you compare indy's. please do so completely. you can't just pick here and there to argue for a change.
the bestower can be taken out by a 1k NPC. it's shields suck. Not something you would take to low sec. and as others have said, it gets stuck on just about every da*n object. It's collision radius is the largest. there are pros and cons to all indy's.
the only thing is the iterons might need a little lovin, but i think the rest are fine.
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.23 15:17:00 -
[19]
Quote:
when you compare indy's. please do so completely. you can't just pick here and there to argue for a change.
the bestower can be taken out by a 1k NPC. it's shields suck.
Rrright. If you AFK it for 5 hours in a belt perhabs.
Perhaps you should look at the wider pircture. Amarr ships usually have less shield, but more armor than other ships. This is true for the bestower, too, it has only a avergae amount of shilds for an indy, but the biggest armor of all exept the iterion m5.
free speech not allowed here |
Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2003.09.23 15:29:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Quote:
when you compare indy's. please do so completely. you can't just pick here and there to argue for a change.
the bestower can be taken out by a 1k NPC. it's shields suck.
Rrright. If you AFK it for 5 hours in a belt perhabs.
Perhaps you should look at the wider pircture. Amarr ships usually have less shield, but more armor than other ships. This is true for the bestower, too, it has only a avergae amount of shilds for an indy, but the biggest armor of all exept the iterion m5.
seriously, you don't know what your talking about. remember this, armor does not regen like shields do.
alsowhy don't you actually go park a bestorwer in a field and see if you last 5 hours. i don't think you'll even make half.
i do fly a bestower and badger mkII, how about you???
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Dark Nyte
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Posted - 2003.09.23 16:27:00 -
[21]
since in general the minmatar ships all suck compared to other races i think its fair to alow complaining about any reduction in the odd ship that has a slight advantage even if you compare the mamoth and the amount of cargo it can handle to get the benefit from a increase in speed would take a huge distance to make up for haveing to make two trips (4 times the distance to travel) to take the same amount of cargo as a bestower/iteron5. also with regards to the point about manuvability and not haveing thrusters on the side... eh think of hovercrafts do they have fans on the side ? no they have one on the back and direct the trust... this being the case as there is no weight in space (only mass) the manoverability would be simply defined on the power difference between the left and right engines and posibly the engines position from the center of the turning circle so it would be valid to make any ship turn at any speed aslong as that speed is lower than half the maximum speed. This being so give the minmatar a break let us have a benefit somewhere are cruisers don't have enoght cargo/drone space to mine well or have a good hi-slot/med-slot combo for combat and our frigates have less cargo space and hi-slots than other races... so our only advantage was our turning circle and now we don't have that. or i suppose we could scrap all the differnt races and everyone can fly about in their thorax and bestower we might aswell all get the same portrait as well it would save on loading time.
Incase i wrote to much for anyone to understand the point. give proper advantages to differnt ships in differnt races how about giving one indy (mamoth? :) 2 mining laser slots ? give us a reason for diversion and not all flying the same ship. I want to be able to argue with ppl and say my ships better than yours and they should equally be able to argue theirs is better than mine... or where are the decisions or the choice ?
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.23 21:50:00 -
[22]
Quote:
seriously, you don't know what your talking about. remember this, armor does not regen like shields do.
Believe me or not, I'm pretty much aware of this. So what? Doesn't changes a thing of what I was saying.
Quote:
alsowhy don't you actually go park a bestorwer in a field and see if you last 5 hours. i don't think you'll even make half.
Reality news: no one will park a indy for 2 hours when he's getting shot at.
Exept AFK mining, that's it, but there you won't AFK in anything less than 1.0 systems. makes no sense to afk in 0.8 or 0.9 since there you have exactly the same ores.
If anyone doesn't knows what he's talking about it's you I'm afraid. Using a 1k npc as example is simply rediculous. And the bestowers shields are pretty much average compared to all indys.
With AB ALL indys can savely fly through NPC gate pirates. And no indy has a chance to get past halfway competent PC pirates (exept by warping away as soon as they are seeing them or by using instajump BM).
The only situation where a bestowers shields could be a slight problem would be combat loot hauling - but at worst that's minor armor damage.
Quote:
i do fly a bestower and badger mkII, how about you???
I was in thse indys so far:
- iterion m2&m3
- badger m2
- bestower
My current indy is a badger m2. Not because it's better than the bestower (it isn't) or it's better for what I'm doing with it ATM (it isn't), but because I'm a) refusing to follow this immensly stupid "Just use it" argument some people are using when someone points outthat the bestower is vastly imbalanced compared to other indys and b) like the looks of the badger m2.
free speech not allowed here |
Missa
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Posted - 2003.09.24 01:03:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Missa on 24/09/2003 01:05:20
The Mammoth should be made a level 3 indy (with stats unchanged). Or it should really be improved...like another low slot or 6 more to the powergrid allowing it to have more engines and be truely fast. Either change would at least make it better...but maybe still not a level 4 Indy compaired to the Amarr God level 1 Indy (who's bonus should be dropped to 4% or 3% cargo).
Oh, one more thing: I have been a Mammoth driver forever, so I know what I am talking about here...It truely needs to be looked at again for balance.
--Missa
New Siggy to Come Soon(tm) |
Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2003.09.24 04:33:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Reality news: no one will park a indy for 2 hours when he's getting shot at.
then why did you bring it up about a bestower lasting 5 hours in a field in the beginning?
and about armor and shields. It does make a diffence in that shields do regen and armor does not. It does affect balancing, to say it doesn't is nieve.
and using a 1k npc as examples does make sense. it gives you a real sense of how weak the shields of a bestower are. please enlighten me how it's ridiculous for providing a easy comparision without having to use concrete numbers to calulate.
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.24 06:33:00 -
[25]
Because it's not realistic. A 1k npc would take AGES to kill a bestower (therefore the "5 hours"). You could as well say "The apocs shields are crap, 1 20k cruiser can kill it."
And, again, the shields of the bestower are average compared to all other indys. There are some with more, there are some with less.
Those with more shield have as much chance against a player priate as a bestower - none.
And the bestower can survive an encounter with gate rats as easy as those indy with more shield. It may suffer a little armor damage if it's unlucky - so what?
Sure, you could use a badger m2 to avoid paying 5-20k repair costs - and take twice the amount of trips for the same amount of cargo.
You fail to realize that a indy is no combat ship, it doesn't matters if armor does not regenerate there. Nevermind that the shield regeneration of indys is so low that it has no effect at all in combat situations. A indy has to be able to get to it's destination, that's the only thing important. Armor damage can be repaired there.
ALL which matters with an indy are the total hits it can take. And the bestower is quite durable even with it's average shield due to it's heavy armor.
free speech not allowed here |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.24 12:59:00 -
[26]
fixing the mammoths speed bonus gave it a nice boost up in that regard .. however "fixing" the agility means you would need to drop out of warp somewhere around 100k from a gate in order to hit full speed by the time you get there .. the same for belts (just try stopping anywhere near a can now with a ship that big .. ouch)
Physical Size
____
Cargo
----(base to max with basic CE's)
Power grid
****
power grid need for full AB's
^^^^
Capacitor
!!!!
damage to destroy
%%%%
Bestower
___
-----(3675-7651)
***(30)
^^^(32-eng2)
!!!!!(550)
%%%%(1625)
Mammoth
______
---(3750-5703)
***(30)
^^^^(40-eng5+lowslots)
!!!!(450)
%%%%(1700)
I dont get it :(
I will say again .. I dont call for bestower nerfs and the point that amarr only have one indy and it needs to be competitive is fine ..(I think they should clone it, make one L1 and nerf it, make the other Bestower Mk II L4 and up its shields some :P) I would ask however how many people think the oposite argument implied by the stats is fair "minmater has 3 indys, so they can all suck"
the mammoths 4-8 days (attribute dependant of course - personally took me 7 days back in the first week of live before I could train learning skills) is just the tip of the iceberg, you need engineering 5 (1 week) also and energy grid upgrades so you can put a +grid module on the lows in order to fit that 5th AB and then you need afterburner, fuel conservation and preferrably energy management and energy operation so as not to run out of energy with the smaller capacitor trying to run more AB's
all of that with an average 50% less cargo after CE's (which add more the more base you have of course) and containers (less base+CE's = less cans) and now the fact that you cant even accelerate enough to make use of even half the speed under normal circumstances .. and its pretty useless (I'd have rather they didnt fix the speed bonus or the agility 
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Sonisha
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:28:00 -
[27]
if u don't mind loosing lower slots, fit good hull mods / stabilisers & kill some Lif burners from NPC pirates. 4 should do & you can blokade run at 1250m/s+, but with a reduced hold size of say 3000m3 |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:32:00 -
[28]
along with making the Mammoths agility a brick TomB changed the effect of agility mods in the patch ... now they only effect how much speed you lose when you turn, they do not effect agility (and thus dont effect acceleration)
the mammoth has 5 mid slots for 5 AB's and 3 lows .. to fit the fifth AB requires one reactor control I or two Power diagnostic modules (and since each AB ups previous total by 50% with skill you need to fit them all)
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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