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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
956
   |
Posted - 2014.05.02 07:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think the current proposed Industry redesign is FUBAR.
Overly complicated.
Destroyed reason to have a high sec POS (limited slots), without replacing with new reason (POS hit with most of the same fees as stations).
If we do have a POS, no reason to have more than one facility of same kind. One component assembly array could be running all the components for multiple titans, concurrently.
Goals:
Remove hard cap on slots.
Scalable for future player growth.
Scale cost to usage to push people apart.
More decisions for players.
Break as little of existing game play as possible.
Proposal:
Overtime Fees:
Remove specific slots and replace it with a max optimal concurrent jobs. Can run more jobs, but you have to pay overtime fees.
cost = (install cost + time usage cost) * (1 + max (current jobs - optimal), 0) / optimal)
If a factory has max optimal of 50, then 50 or under is just base cost. Start the 51st job, cost = 2% more. 100th job = 100% more than base. 150th = 200%.
For scalability, every so often, the max optimal can be adjusted based on changes in total universal hours. Example: Every 10% increase in total universal job hours, increase all station max optimal by 10%.
NPC Standings Adjustment: (donGÇÖt remove reason for standings)
In NPC stations, increase costs by multiplying costs by ( 100% - 10% x max (your standing to station owner, your standing to stations faction, your corp's standing to station owner, your corp's standing to Station's, faction's standing)) . Players with low standings can have adjustment improved by corpGÇÖs standings, but players with good standing cannot have adjustment made worse.
0 standings increases fees 100%. 5 standing increases fees 50% higher. -10 would triple costs.
Retain Ability to Delay Start: (donGÇÖt break ability to get known cost if willing to wait)
When requesting a quote, show current jobs running and price for immediate start. If above max optimal, allow players to explore future time to see when current running jobs end and delay start to when there are fewer jobs running, with lower cost. (More decisions)
Outpost Throttling/Slot Upgrades:
Allow owner to assign slots to 3 pools: corp, alliance, blue standings. If an outpost has 50 max optimal, they could, for example, assign 10 to corp only, 20 to alliance, and 20 to any blue. When installing a job, player gets quoted their best cost of the type they are eligible to use.
Can maintain the max concurrent jobs increase for upgrading manufacturing outpost instead of having to go to ME bonus. (DonGÇÖt break max efficiency.)
Achieves stated goals:
You can always start a job immediately, but higher costs in high use stations push people apart. Track and modify max optimal of stations based on iniversal jobs being run.
Why this is better:
1) Easier to implement. Increment current jobs when requesting a quote or delayed start job begins running. Decrement when quote expires, job completes, or player submits job with delay start. Do not need to track hours by solar system. No need for discounts based on facilities in solar system.
2) WAY easier to understand.
3) Station could be expensive enough to make a POS worthwhile.
4) Reason to have multiple facilities of same type at POS.
5) Allows throttling of outpost to non-corp/non-alliance members.
6) Can't have 2000 titans under construction in a single array, concurrently, without INSANE prices.
7) Reason to have good NPC corp/faction standing.
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Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
1657
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 08:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ok, I will start: my boobs hurt but it was totally worth it!
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
956
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 08:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
The key to achieving the goals is the actual cost. It has to be high enough to get people to avoid really high overtime, low enough to not kill high sec industry, high enough at station to justify POS, low enough to not destroy the market.
Proposal:
Install cost:
Station Install Cost = 10 ISK per M3 of the input.
POS Install Cost = 0 (time/risk to haul, hassle of getting right mix into right array)
Sanity check: 7 million-ish minerals to build a BS. 0.01 m3 per min = 70Km3 = 700K install fee per BS. 700K for BS worth 100 million or more? 0.7% or less.
Small Fusion projectile ammo = 200 minerals = 2m3 = 20 isk for a batch of 100 = .2 ISK per.
Yeah, that is the smell test I am looking for.
Time cost:
Station time cost: Base it on POS cost, sort of, give or take a little (or perhaps more than a little).
Base examples:
Copy:
Assumptions: Small POS 100 million ISK fuel for 30 days. Small POS could have 3 advanced labs at 3 copy slots each 24 hours a day 30 days = 6480 slot hours. ~100M/6480 = ~15K ISK per hour (or 4 ISK a second if you prefer).
Manufacturing: Not so easy!
Battleship: Small POS = 1 large ship assembly array * 3 slots * 24 hours * 30 = 2K slot hours. 100M/2K = ~50K ISK an hour (or 14 ISK a second if you prefer).
At 4 hours for a battleship is 200K ISK, which is a lot less than 700K ISK install cost. Adding together is getting close to 1% of output price.
BUT small proj ammo = 3 mins = 2500 ISK for batch of 100 = 25 each for something that currently costs 20K each.
Small POS can have 10 ammo array * 5 slots * 24 * 30 = 36K slot hours. 100M/36K = 2700 per hourGǪ or 1 isk a sec. So 180 for batch of small ammo or 1.8 ISK per.
So, we see we would need to have different cost per time for different things based on the POS array they can be built in.
POS time cost = half of station cost.
WAIT! What?
Station costs as much as POS fuel, but POS cost fuel + half station fee? Doesn't this guarantee POS more expensive?
1) No install cost. This will mostly apply to manufacturing as it has large volume of inputs.
2) You have better control to avoid/manage overtime fees. This will probably mostly apply to lab. Lab slots in NPC stations are long-time booked now, so are very likely to have significant overtime fees. Add in the GÇ£no remote researchGÇ¥ and have more expensive BPOs in those stations, could drastically increase their cost (100s of % over POS, not 10% over POS as in CCP proposed design.) Those very high station lab fees MAY even get people to put the expensive BPOs into POS after all.
3) No NPC tax based on standings.
4) Other bonuses such as time bonus, which also brings down fees based on the per-hour.
5) Can use POS for other things like perfect refine without grinding standings or ore compression array.
Still donGÇÖt buy that this is enough to justify POS? Fine... recalculate install and time cost with POS running half time and some defenses. But remember, those stations fees could easily be 200-300% higher (or much more for heavy overtime use systems) than the 1% listed because of standings and overtime.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
5634
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 08:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Wrong forum.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 08:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Wrong forum.
I thought about putting it in features and ideas, but this is not a proposal out of the blue sky. It is based on stuff CCP is currently working on for a release in a month or two. So, this is a lot more "general discussion about next release" then it is random feature and idea for some random alternate future. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
5635
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 08:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Wrong forum. I thought about putting it in features and ideas, but this is not a proposal out of the blue sky. It is based on stuff CCP is currently working on for a release in a month or two. So, this is a lot more "general discussion about next release" then it is random feature and idea for some random alternate future.
I went ahead and reported it for a forum change anyway, so we shall see if the ISDs agree.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
953
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 08:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Wrong forum. I thought about putting it in features and ideas, but this is not a proposal out of the blue sky. It is based on stuff CCP is currently working on for a release in a month or two. So, this is a lot more "general discussion about next release" then it is random feature and idea for some random alternate future. I went ahead and reported it for a forum change anyway, so we shall see if the ISDs agree.
Post constructively.
Thread locked.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860
Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears!
And how do I put text as links into signatures?? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
1410
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 09:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:I thought about putting it in features and ideas, but this is not a proposal out of the blue sky. It is based on stuff CCP is currently working on for a release in a month or two. So, this is a lot more "general discussion about next release" then it is random feature and idea for some random alternate future.
Seems pretty much an idea discussion to me.
If you look closely enough, theres almost no thread in GD that doesn't belong somewhere else under the rules.
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
1112
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 09:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Wrong forum. I thought about putting it in features and ideas, but this is not a proposal out of the blue sky. It is based on stuff CCP is currently working on for a release in a month or two. So, this is a lot more "general discussion about next release" then it is random feature and idea for some random alternate future. I went ahead and reported it for a forum change anyway, so we shall see if the ISDs agree. Post constructively. Thread locked.
10mill on
Quote:Thread locked.
The rules:
16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á sig by Doc Fury -¬ 2014
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
956
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 09:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:Solecist Project wrote:Post constructively.
Thread locked. 10mill on Quote:Thread locked.
The rules:
16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.
You forgot to link to the specific comment thread from the devblog.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860
Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears!
And how do I put text as links into signatures?? |
Victor Andall
Heleneto Holdings
440
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 09:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
OK, PACK IT UP GUYS, OP DOESN'T LIKE IT!
I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do? |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 12:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Not a single comment on the content? |
Karen Avioras
Unsung Heroes
The Volition Cult
497
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 12:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Not a single comment on the content?
What CCP is doing seems neat. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
293
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 12:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Until T2BPO are removed the only new players who want to enter industry are self-masochists. Any re-design of industrry that does not have the removal of T2BPO as the first bullet point one is futile. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 12:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:OK, PACK IT UP GUYS, OP DOESN'T LIKE IT!
It is hardly just me. From the comments on the DevBlogs, even CCP Greyscale seems to not know what to do with some issues.
He solicited for ideas on how to keep POS viable. Idea of semi-bringing back slot count to avoid cost scaling "good idea".
They're looking for some way to cause POS to need multi-facilities of same type.
Not sure what to do with outpost throttling.
I can't imagine that he's super happy that we will be able to build all the components for 100 super carriers, in a single small POS with a single component array.
Not sure what to do with NPC/faction standings.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 12:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Until T2BPO are removed the only new players who want to enter industry are self-masochists. Any re-design of industrry that does not have the removal of T2BPO as the first bullet point one is futile.
Incorrect.
Do not remove T2 BPO. Allow them to be invented with input costs ranging from 100s of millions to 100s of billions.
In fact, remove all rat M1-M4 drop, allow BPOs for those to be invented on road to M5 BPO invention. Add salvage to wrecks to replace lost loot. Require salvage for M1-M4 manufacture to increase demand to compensate for high supply, and to ensure increasing price with higher meta.
Are you trying to kill this thread? |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 12:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
It would be a mercy killing.
Travelling at the speed of love. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira.
Villore Accords
531
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 13:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Not a single comment on the content?
Over here |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 13:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Not a single comment on the content? Over here
Actually, it is here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=340393 |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
226
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 13:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
OP is stupid.
CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile.
GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
3598
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 13:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:I think the current proposed Industry redesign is FUBAR.
Overly complicated.
Destroyed reason to have a high sec POS (limited slots), without replacing with new reason (POS hit with most of the same fees as stations).
If we do have a POS, no reason to have more than one facility of same kind. One component assembly array could be running all the components for multiple titans, concurrently.
1: As opposed to industry as it is right now, which is the very model of streamlined perfection... No. Industry in EVE should be involved and complex, otherwise it wouldn't be entertaining. As things stand, they seem to be managing to both streamline it AND make it more interesting.
2: So... your complaint is that you WANT to play glorified gas station attendant to a needlessly obtuse relic of a game mechanic which decreases your available inventory size and renders you more vulnerable to wardecs while eating into your profit margin with running costs and spams you with notifications every time it gets thirsty?
3: Not actually the case because assembly arrays still only have limited storage capacity. The hard limit on how much these things can make is no longer their number of slots, it's their hangar size. But see point 2.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1327
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 15:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Locked for cleanup.
ISD LackOfFaith
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums. |
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 15:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:I think the current proposed Industry redesign is FUBAR.
Overly complicated.
Destroyed reason to have a high sec POS (limited slots), without replacing with new reason (POS hit with most of the same fees as stations).
If we do have a POS, no reason to have more than one facility of same kind. One component assembly array could be running all the components for multiple titans, concurrently. 1: As opposed to industry as it is right now, which is the very model of streamlined perfection... No. Industry in EVE should be involved and complex, otherwise it wouldn't be entertaining. As things stand, they seem to be managing to both streamline it AND make it more interesting.
CCP thinks industry is too complex right now, and that profit should come from conscious choice, not obscure knowledge and needless complexity.
Unfortunately, while they take away complexity with one hand (new UI) they give it back in droves with the other (solar system usage costs, stacking discounts), and then flt out destroy some mechanics.
Stitcher wrote:
2: So... your complaint is that you WANT to play glorified gas station attendant to a needlessly obtuse relic of a game mechanic which decreases your available inventory size and renders you more vulnerable to wardecs while eating into your profit margin with running costs and spams you with notifications every time it gets thirsty?
Meaningful choices, risk v. reward, recruiting tool, your little bit of flag in space.
I think the Player Owned Starbase is an interesting game mechanic for those that choose to run them. The beauty of EVE is that it is supposed to accommodate a wide variety of play styles. Also, the market should reach equilibrium where the hassle and cost of a POS will stabilize at slightly under station cost. If you want easy, use station and take lower profit. If you want max profit, then put up with the thirsty POS.
This is the type of meaningful decision CCP says it wants... Not some tiny 3-5% mark-up at station over POS that makes station always the most price efficient, safest, no brainer optimal choice.
Stitcher wrote:
3: Not actually the case because assembly arrays still only have limited storage capacity. The hard limit on how much these things can make is no longer their number of slots, it's their hangar size. But see point 2.
Load it up, start job... it empties out. Fill it up again, start job, it empties out.... repeat to start all my jobs. No different filing the same array 10 times or filling 10 different arrays one time each... except the 10 arrays take more power/cpu. To deliver, reverse the process. Deliver, remove items, deliver, remove items, deliver.... No difference between emptying one array 10 times, or 10 arrays one-time... except less travel time.
AND, people have actually requested expanded capacity to align with the infinite slots, and Grayscale said he's looking into that in hopes it would be something/anything to make POS worthwhile in the face of infinite station slots and POS getting hit with most of the fees stations have.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 15:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:OP is stupid.
CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile.
Those proposed bonuses themselves become problematic.
Time bonus risks making T2 BPO more profitable, something CCP Grayscale indicates he does not want to do.
Material efficiency bonus..... see above.
CCP still not sure how to implement a reason for you to have muti-facilities discount. Would need to not be exploitable... online/start jobs/offline. Would be having a bunch of labs lower your copy costs? Too many things to think about, and will be complicated to understand. CCP Grayscale already likes the idea of pseudo bringing back slot concept by exempting POS mod from fees for first x jobs where X is "lines".
I am just taking that one tiny step further and bringing pseudo-line count back as a mechanism for cost scaling that is easier to understand than square root of local usage ratio to universal usage....
And un-breaking a lot of the other things they break with proposed changes (NPC standings, delay start for better cost, reason to have POS with many of same facility type).
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 16:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:Thread cleaned up of off-topic, trolling, and content-free posts. It has also been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. Some rationale: were the thread just feedback and response to the industry devblog, it would have been redundant, locked, and redirected here. However, this is more "how about we throw those changes out the window, and replace them with an entirely new idea". Entirely new ideas go into their own threads in F&I, where devs can see them, which is what the case is now. Please keep on topic, civil, and constructive.
Actually, I keep a lot of the changes detailed in the series of DevBlogs.
The main thing I attack is the solar system wide usage as means of pushing people apart... then a bunch of complexity (discounts) and breaks that come from not basing costs off usage of a specific facility.
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Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2152
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 16:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:OP is stupid.
CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile.
The refining arrays alone are straight up better than stations now, even in hisec (station base = 50, refining array = 52; low and null get the intensive which starts out at 54%).
Compression arrays for all the sec space ...
POS fixes for manufacturing are a bit thin right now, or at least I missed what their changes will be in the recent devblogs -- my take is that they'll still have the install cost "tax" (which should, IMO go to the owning corp), BUT they shouldn't (again, IMO) have the NPC tax (straight 10% increase).
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2152
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 16:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Kristalll wrote:OP is stupid.
CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile. Those proposed bonuses themselves become problematic. Time bonus risks making T2 BPO more profitable, something CCP Grayscale indicates he does not want to do. Material efficiency bonus..... see above. CCP still not sure how to implement a reason for you to have muti-facilities discount. Would need to not be exploitable... online/start jobs/offline. Would be having a bunch of labs lower your copy costs? Too many things to think about, and will be complicated to understand. CCP Grayscale already likes the idea of pseudo bringing back slot concept by exempting POS mod from fees for first x jobs where X is "lines". I am just taking that one tiny step further and bringing pseudo-line count back as a mechanism for cost scaling that is easier to understand than square root of local usage ratio to universal usage.... And un-breaking a lot of the other things they break with proposed changes (NPC standings, delay start for better cost, reason to have POS with many of same facility type).
you do realize that in order to use a POS, you'll need the BPO in the POS array, right?
**** putting a T2BPO in a POS array.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 16:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Kristalll wrote:OP is stupid.
CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile. The refining arrays alone are straight up better than stations now, even in hisec (station base = 50, refining array = 52; low and null get the intensive which starts out at 54%). Compression arrays for all the sec space ...
While excellent changes, neither of these require POS be up full time. I can put it up for a couple hours, refine/compress... then pack it up and put it away.
Your point about manufacturing and research is the key point to keeping a POS up more than a couple hours for a specific short-term project. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
3600
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 16:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Load it up, start job... it empties out. Fill it up again, start job, it empties out.... repeat to start all my jobs. No different filing the same array 10 times or filling 10 different arrays one time each... except the 10 arrays take more power/cpu. To deliver, reverse the process. Deliver, remove items, deliver, remove items, deliver.... No difference between emptying one array 10 times, or 10 arrays one-time... except less travel time.
So in other words you think that good gameplay involves shovelling resources into a hungry furnace like one of the engineers on the Titanic used to shovel coal.
No thanks. It's like you're standing outside a five-star hotel with an award-winning restaurant, and you're complaining that there's no point in setting up your tent and sleeping bag in the car park and cooking some hot dogs over the fire. If you really, REALLY want to do that, then go right ahead, you have that right. but why should slumming it confer any particular advantage?
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 16:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Kristalll wrote:OP is stupid.
CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile. Those proposed bonuses themselves become problematic. Time bonus risks making T2 BPO more profitable, something CCP Grayscale indicates he does not want to do. Material efficiency bonus..... see above. CCP still not sure how to implement a reason for you to have muti-facilities discount. Would need to not be exploitable... online/start jobs/offline. Would be having a bunch of labs lower your copy costs? Too many things to think about, and will be complicated to understand. CCP Grayscale already likes the idea of pseudo bringing back slot concept by exempting POS mod from fees for first x jobs where X is "lines". I am just taking that one tiny step further and bringing pseudo-line count back as a mechanism for cost scaling that is easier to understand than square root of local usage ratio to universal usage.... And un-breaking a lot of the other things they break with proposed changes (NPC standings, delay start for better cost, reason to have POS with many of same facility type). you do realize that in order to use a POS, you'll need the BPO in the POS array, right? **** putting a T2BPO in a POS array.
Yes I do realize this. But a super hardened high sec large POS with a single lab would be formidable, especially with 24 hour notice to war dec start.
If you do not move BPO to POS, then will actually take a hit to production because slower manufacturing based on POS build speed bonuses that have existed.
Of cource, all this stems from not understand or not thinking through full impact of what seem to be minor changes. In addition to infinite slots, other things not thought through.
1) Not thinking though the "no remote" changes impacts of corp theft (no lock down) and T2 BPO production.
2) CCP wanting to move to BPC based manufacturing, and dropping copy times to at or below build time.
3) Wanting 2, without it becoming cop start hell, so offering to increase max runs.
4) Offering 3, without thinking about impact on invention and seeming to not have realized copy time is not linear.
5) making a 100 run BPC 100x as expensive a ME on same BPO?
6) Very long research times, without thinking about a partial research tracking system to allow that research to be done in pieces.
6) Not thinking about impact of moving other items input to regular inputs, without thinking about the impact on -4 (or -40 post changes to research) invented BPC.
But.... I'm not trying to address those other issues here. Just the infinite slot issue and the way too complicated cost scaling. |
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