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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
Sigras
Conglomo
750
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Posted - 2014.05.06 08:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.
1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...
2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?
I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could
TL;DR is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)? |
Sigras
Conglomo
750
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
zahter wrote:lets say material cost of items is "a" lets say installing cost of job is "b" pos have %2 material efficiency bonus, so "b" becomes b*0.98 for pos no, youre wrong POS have a 2% ME bonus so "a" becomes a*0.98 for POS
A material bonus applies to the material cost of the items ... go figure... |
Sigras
Conglomo
750
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Posted - 2014.05.06 10:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
2% material bonus isnt enough of a reason for you?
How is it that there are so many people who are terrible at math and still do industry? |
Sigras
Conglomo
751
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Except that when you figure in fuel, NO WAY does it cost less.
Let's say the cost in station is 7% of 2% of what is produced and we're researching a BPO that produces a capital that is worth 1 billion ISK. 1B *.07*.02= 1.4 million. I'd have to run 75 such jobs per month to pay for the 100 million iSK a month fuel cost of a SMALL POS, and 4 times that many to justify a large POS.
If we're researching battleship BPOs, which produce something worth 100 million, * 7% * 2% = 140K, or 750 such jobs to pay for the fuel of a small POS. If all you're doing is researching a single BPO then maybe a POS isnt for you, but when I'm researching copying and inventing from my POS with 11 open research jobs going constantly and 11 manufacturing jobs running all the time in a single POS, ill think of you :) |
Sigras
Conglomo
753
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sigras wrote:I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.
1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...
2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?
I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could
TL;DR is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)? The material reduction is applied per run last I checked, but we have plans to apply it to the whole job, so that blueprints with small amount of components also benefit from it. Not sure if we can squeeze this for summer though, going to ask around - thanks for the reminder. do iiiiiiiittttt! That would be awesome! |
Sigras
Conglomo
753
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 17:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Oh god, can't believe I missed this.
Material discounts at job rather than run level would be a major, major change.
(I like it. But it would require a rework of a whole bunch of tools to take run numbers into account as well. And I'm not /sure/ about how it affects bpc vs bpo. I'm generally in favor.) the tools are already being changed, and it only slightly adversely effects BPCs depending on how the rounding works.
Speaking of which, how does the rounding for a discount work? does it roundUp roundDown or just roundClose?
how would a 2% Material cost bonus effect a theoretical item taking 24 trit? 25 trit? 26 trit? |
Sigras
Conglomo
754
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 00:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Korthan Doshu wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:If Research Labs and Hyasyoda Labs can *only* work on blueprint originals (since they only offer ME and TE services), then having them on a POS is a big flashing "SHOOT ME!" sign. Can I have big flashing "SHOOT ME!" signs on ships carrying BPOs, too, without any sort of effort? A thousand times this. Please split up invention and research so that both arrays are needed and people can't be sure about BPOs in POS. It's the difference between no MLs and some MLs. Guys... both arrays mean that there are potentially BPOs in the POS
Unless you've devised some clever way to copy without a BPO? |
Sigras
Conglomo
754
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Posted - 2014.05.08 05:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Korthan Doshu wrote:Sigras wrote:Korthan Doshu wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:If Research Labs and Hyasyoda Labs can *only* work on blueprint originals (since they only offer ME and TE services), then having them on a POS is a big flashing "SHOOT ME!" sign. Can I have big flashing "SHOOT ME!" signs on ships carrying BPOs, too, without any sort of effort? A thousand times this. Please split up invention and research so that both arrays are needed and people can't be sure about BPOs in POS. It's the difference between no MLs and some MLs. Guys... both arrays mean that there are potentially BPOs in the POS Unless you've devised some clever way to copy without a BPO? Nobody should be doing invention with anything other than ME0/PE0 BPOs. But if you're using researched BPOs to copy from your POS, well...duly noted. Thats not a relevant factor
If you're inventing command ships/marauders/BLOPS/JFs then you still have billions of ISK worth of BPOs in that tower.
researched BPOs arent actually worth that much more than stock BPOs |
Sigras
Conglomo
755
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Confirming the new Industry will not do any material rounding until AFTER we multiply by the number of runs, meaning material efficiency discounts due to facility / teams / skills / blueprints / whatever may produce slightly better results with multiple runs. You do realize that is yet another buff to T2 BPOs, right? Because T2 BPCs don't have enough runs to make a difference with a 1-5% reduction in materials. Dear CCP, Do you have a freaking clue about what you're doing? MDD As long as they're not increasing the yield IE output per day, then it doesnt effect inventors at all; it just helps the BPO owners make more ISK. |
Sigras
Conglomo
756
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Posted - 2014.05.08 23:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Sigras wrote:Korthan Doshu wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:If Research Labs and Hyasyoda Labs can *only* work on blueprint originals (since they only offer ME and TE services), then having them on a POS is a big flashing "SHOOT ME!" sign. Can I have big flashing "SHOOT ME!" signs on ships carrying BPOs, too, without any sort of effort? A thousand times this. Please split up invention and research so that both arrays are needed and people can't be sure about BPOs in POS. It's the difference between no MLs and some MLs. Guys... both arrays mean that there are potentially BPOs in the POS Unless you've devised some clever way to copy without a BPO? Yes but Research Labs and Hyasyoda Labs require BPOs to do anything. You won't be able to tell if they are copying a BPO, but you will know if they are researching a BPO. This is true, however:
1. Invention requires copies, so it's reasonable to assume that an inventor is copying BPOs to fund his own invention. 2. 3/4 of the research jobs require a BPO meaning there is no way to split the activities up that doesnt guarantee BPOs are in one or the other. |
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Sigras
Conglomo
758
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Posted - 2014.05.09 09:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sigras wrote:I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.
1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...
2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?
I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could
TL;DR is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)? The bonus is a 2% material discount, not ME level since that's going away in the new system. The material reduction is applied per run last I checked, but we have plans to apply it to the whole job, so that blueprints with small amount of components also benefit from it. Not sure if we can squeeze this for summer though, going to ask around - thanks for the reminder. Oh god, can't believe I missed this. Material discounts at job rather than run level would be a major, major change. (I like it. But it would require a rework of a whole bunch of tools to take run numbers into account as well. And I'm not /sure/ about how it affects bpc vs bpo. I'm generally in favor.) Confirming the new Industry will not do any material rounding until AFTER we multiply by the number of runs, meaning material efficiency discounts due to facility / teams / skills / blueprints / whatever may produce slightly better results with multiple runs. Please tell me that "Blueprints" was in there by accident... Otherwise we could get some sort of crazy rounding issue where you need to research an already "perfect" BPO to get a better yield for a long run.
Im just assuming that there is another CEILING() function on BPs for their base material requirements before teams and facilities are factored in... right? |
Sigras
Conglomo
759
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Posted - 2014.05.10 02:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Sigras wrote:1. Invention requires copies, so it's reasonable to assume that an inventor is copying BPOs to fund his own invention. 2. 3/4 of the research jobs require a BPO meaning there is no way to split the activities up that doesnt guarantee BPOs are in one or the other. I suspect a lot of people will simply make BPCs in station for safety sake for any BPO of any real value as copying in station appears to still be pretty cheap, and fast for most items. BPOs are unlike most items in Eve. If my ship explodes or gets stolen I can generally just buy a new one. If I lose a BPO it might take months to fully research another. Even if I'm willing to buy one I may have trouble finding one researched to my desired level and for a reasonable price. This still doesnt fix the issue that there is no logical way to split up the research operations that doesnt leave one lab with only BPO research. |
Sigras
Conglomo
763
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Posted - 2014.05.14 16:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
The third is Metallurgy
Also, Temenus Alexander has clearly never done invention. As I explained here time is everything in invention, and a 40% bonus to copy time and a 50% bonus to invention time makes you WAY more isk |
Sigras
Conglomo
763
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
I only have concerns about the research labs; Im saying that the current bonuses the labs offer to speed are more than enough incentive for inventors to use lots and no further bonus is necessary. |
Sigras
Conglomo
774
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Posted - 2014.05.26 06:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:My first thought on this was "Hacking!" So seconding/thirding/fourthing/whatever your linked proposal. We have a tower removal mechanic... its called war deccing. |
Sigras
Conglomo
774
|
Posted - 2014.05.31 22:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Maxdig wrote:Any info on re-balance the cargo sizes a bit more of POS Assembly Arrays? Seen it asked about 5 times now with no response... 3 million m3 on the Component Assembly Array is not enough... We aren't planning on adjusting cargo capacity further for now unfortunately. Why the hell not? I thought you were working for us? Do as your told. The devs do not work for you or the advancement of your entitlement issues; they work for CCP and that means they reserve the right to ignore all ideas they believe are stupid. |
Sigras
Conglomo
793
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 15:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:Sigras wrote:Komi Toran wrote:My first thought on this was "Hacking!" So seconding/thirding/fourthing/whatever your linked proposal. We have a tower removal mechanic... its called war deccing. War Decs are not a GÇÿRemovalGÇÖ mechanicGǪ they're a PvP mechanicGǪ POS Bashing, or grinding, the endless hours of POS shooting is a GÇÿRemovalGÇÖ mechanic, and Wardeccing any corp to bash an offline POS in null or W-space is really idiotic. "Oh No! I actually have to do some work to get the results I want which include freeing up a moon in high sec and blowing up a 3-400 million isk asset of my enemies! Why cant CCP just let me be lazy and do it for me???!!!" |
Sigras
Conglomo
802
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Posted - 2014.06.13 07:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:Sigras wrote:"Oh No! I actually have to do some work to get the results I want which include freeing up a moon in high sec and blowing up a 3-400 million isk asset of my enemies! Why cant CCP just let me be lazy and do it for me???!!!" There is a large diffrence between CCP helping to remove towers, and CCP changing mechanics around tower removal. We have no idea what they end up doing, but killing a dickstar in highsec is far from what anyone would call fun. Thats fair, i cant criticize a mechanic that I havent observed yet... |
Sigras
Conglomo
808
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Posted - 2014.06.20 02:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Honestly it still seems better for arrays to give a significant (say 20% discount) to job cost and then have a +2% job cost per job already in the array.
This would allow a significant bonus and of course the optimal strategy would be to have only one job per array, but at the cost of CPU PG and tedium of moving materials around.
This would allow small corps to grow organically as they needed/wanted additional arrays. |
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