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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.05.26 12:52:00 -
[151]
 Originally by: Nafri
Do you test a patch at all? Do you at least have a check list what has to be done when releasing a new patch?
Im still amazed that software developer can allow such things to happen. I hope you know what whould happen when dealing with non addicted customers?
Given past discussion in this area, it seems that item seeding is a DB issue not a patch issue. It'll probably be seeded at DT tomorrow.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.05.26 12:53:00 -
[152]
Originally by: aeti
Originally by: Seleene
So, are you saying that it is now, at this very moment, possible for pilots to jump clone themselves to a Mothership?
nope, the skill for it isn't even listed on the market ._.
Well, the BPO isn't a lot of use 
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.05.26 12:55:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Nafri
Do you test a patch at all? Do you at least have a check list what has to be done when releasing a new patch?
Im still amazed that software developer can allow such things to happen. I hope you know what whould happen when dealing with non addicted customers?
Given past discussion in this area, it seems that item seeding is a DB issue not a patch issue. It'll probably be seeded at DT tomorrow.
I think seeding could be done without a patch, but I am not certain about adding it to the market (it currently doesn't have a market entry). remember how long BCU2s were seeded before they got added to the market? With an NPC seeded item, it is impossible to buy without a market entry or another copy to add to your market quickbar.
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:10:00 -
[154]
CCP doesn't have a QA department, stop lying.
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Zeta Draconis
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:24:00 -
[155]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I find it suprising that so many intellegent people choose B or C over A. Today was the first time I'd heard that the Jump Portal skill was not seeded. Tux fixed the mothership volume thing so it will be on TQ after the fix goes through the proper channels.
You aren't serious about this right?
If yes it looks to like you have to *seriously* review your modus operandi concerning the very basics of your working process.
Oh and btw, if it wasn't for this post and all the rabble, would you have known about that skill not being seeded on TQ yet (because OFC *noone* has submitted a bugreport about it, eh?) )
Speaking about shooting in your own foot...
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Shadar Ishaan
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:41:00 -
[156]
No big surprise. Anyone remember how long it took to get the basic trade skill resupplied on the market?
I remember the basic trade skill going for a couple million a book.
Get your own set of jump clones for 15 million ISK! |
Jacobz
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:44:00 -
[157]
The way I see CCP improving their CRM on the subject of bug report is rather simple.
1) When the QA receive a bug report, it approves it(or not) and it starts a thread on a forum section when the bug report is approved.(i.e verified)
2) This way, bug resolution can be followed/linked too/commented on by the users.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:51:00 -
[158]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
5) Patch day comes, bug is fixed and everyone is happy
You know I really really really really really really really would like this.
Not seen it these past 3 years though, seriously.
¼+¼
a history |
Jane Vladmir
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:55:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Ling Xiao
CCP doesn't have a QA department, stop lying.
Made me chuckle.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.05.26 14:07:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 14:14:55
Originally by: Seleene
Edited by: Seleene on 26/05/2006 12:21:11
Hammer, thanks for the reply. Honestly. 
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I find it suprising that so many intellegent people choose B or C over A.
M8, I don't like starting threads like this. I agree that it should be a last resort. The only reason I started this thread is because I've been told by numerous people, people I work with who have a direct interest in these matters, that they HAVE been submitting bug reports on these issues and there was nothing but silence on them. Perhaps they were all lying to me, but "C" seemed to be the only option left.
It may seem I like stirring the pot. I don't.
Well, I do.
Who do you think you are Hammer ?
Do you really think that this many intelligent and continuing users of a game have not tried the way of the bug report before ? Your post is another example or haughty and indignant replying to valid concerns. You act superior, make posting players out to be stupid kids that are just whining to get their toys fixed without even trying to ask nicely in the right way before they go and throw a tantrum.
Your reply worries me, since it signifies that you are tired of our critical input. I guess that explains why bug reports seem to go unreaded then ?
There are people that have been testing and testing, filing one bugreprt after another on issues that simply DO NOT GET FIXED. Worse still, those are the same issues devs or bughunters then happily proclaim to have never heard of before 6 months later. Don't you agree that seeing how there are so many people involved with the up and coming titan uilding projects across Eve, that it is very unlikely that not even ONE has at least petitioned the gm's to ask what is up ?
What you are saying here, is that bugreports are useless, and that choosing another way to make an issue known will be responded to in an insulting manner if at all, instead of by a contructive post in a correctly chosen apologetic tone.
Quote:
Quote:
Today was the first time I'd heard that the Jump Portal skill was not seeded.
TBH, considering how long the Titan BPO's and such have been on the market, that is SCARY. Was this just an "ooops"?
An oops ?
How could it be an oops, I mean, you design new content that incorporates new ships that take the combined effort of hundreds to build, prepare and use efficiently, yet you fail to even be intelligent enough to make a simple checklist of supportive features and content that need to be in place as part of the content package for the new ship ?
I mean, I am surprised how many intelligent devs and Q&A people manage to choose for the option "oops" when it is so clearly not the way to get things done 
These skills werent't seeded not because someone forgot them, but because capital ships in general and titans specifically, just like POS's and sovereignty in their day, were willingly implemented only partly so as to be able to divert work hours to other projects as well at that time.
It's amazing how often CCP 'forget' to return to their unfinished business on theri own volition however. I would assume that most intelligent devs don't need the Eve community to clean the trash behind them and remind them to finish their chores before going to play with the next toys. Yet for the last three years, time upon time this is exactly what happens.
Or am i being insulting now Hammer ?
That was not the right way to improve your communication as a company btw, just in case you didn't get my point.
Old blog |
Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.05.26 14:21:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 26/05/2006 14:23:22
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
That's about where my bugreports get to before being used for toilet paper. I think the bughunters must be miners.
I have bug reported interdictors. I've had my corp mates bug report freighter log-off's. I've posted on the forums...Several times, I've created a spearate thread just for the subject.
Still no answers. Not even a comment from CCP. The lack of any response whatsoever to ANYTHING has forced me to believe that CCP wants people to log out to avoid combat.
CCP Hammer, you must be a clueless Asshat.
Shamis
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.05.26 14:25:00 -
[162]
Oh, and if I ever again see any dev reference negative replies to their forum posts as a reason for them to not reply anymore I'm going to strangle a kitten.
You come here and tell us right to our faces that developing and fixing Eve is a two way street in which one way get's ignored half the time.
I would find it quite insulting then if one partner quotes negative feedback from the other as a reason do ignore him even more.
Is it strange that I have a feeling this pre-emptive whine was needed at this time ?
Old blog |
SirMolle
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Posted - 2006.05.26 14:38:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 14:14:55
Originally by: Seleene
Edited by: Seleene on 26/05/2006 12:21:11
Hammer, thanks for the reply. Honestly.
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I find it suprising that so many intellegent people choose B or C over A.
M8, I don't like starting threads like this. I agree that it should be a last resort. The only reason I started this thread is because I've been told by numerous people, people I work with who have a direct interest in these matters, that they HAVE been submitting bug reports on these issues and there was nothing but silence on them. Perhaps they were all lying to me, but "C" seemed to be the only option left.
It may seem I like stirring the pot. I don't.
Well, I do.
Who do you think you are Hammer ?
Do you really think that this many intelligent and continuing users of a game have not tried the way of the bug report before ? Your post is another example or haughty and indignant replying to valid concerns. You act superior, make posting players out to be stupid kids that are just whining to get their toys fixed without even trying to ask nicely in the right way before they go and throw a tantrum.
Your reply worries me, since it signifies that you are tired of our critical input. I guess that explains why bug reports seem to go unreaded then ?
There are people that have been testing and testing, filing one bugreprt after another on issues that simply DO NOT GET FIXED. Worse still, those are the same issues devs or bughunters then happily proclaim to have never heard of before 6 months later. Don't you agree that seeing how there are so many people involved with the up and coming titan uilding projects across Eve, that it is very unlikely that not even ONE has at least petitioned the gm's to ask what is up ?
What you are saying here, is that bugreports are useless, and that choosing another way to make an issue known will be responded to in an insulting manner if at all, instead of by a contructive post in a correctly chosen apologetic tone.
Quote:
Quote:
Today was the first time I'd heard that the Jump Portal skill was not seeded.
TBH, considering how long the Titan BPO's and such have been on the market, that is SCARY. Was this just an "ooops"?
An oops ?
How could it be an oops, I mean, you design new content that incorporates new ships that take the combined effort of hundreds to build, prepare and use efficiently, yet you fail to even be intelligent enough to make a simple checklist of supportive features and content that need to be in place as part of the content package for the new ship ?
I mean, I am surprised how many intelligent devs and Q&A people manage to choose for the option "oops" when it is so clearly not the way to get things done
These skills werent't seeded not because someone forgot them, but because capital ships in general and titans specifically, just like POS's and sovereignty in their day, were willingly implemented only partly so as to be able to divert work hours to other projects as well at that time.
It's amazing how often CCP 'forget' to return to their unfinished business on theri own volition however. I would assume that most intelligent devs don't need the Eve community to clean the trash behind them and remind them to finish their chores before going to play with the next toys. Yet for the last three years, time upon time this is exactly what happens.
Or am i being insulting now Hammer ?
That was not the right way to improve your communication as a company btw, just in case you didn't get my point.
Rod, stfu k.
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Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2006.05.26 14:53:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 26/05/2006 14:23:22
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
That's about where my bugreports get to before being used for toilet paper. I think the bughunters must be miners.
I have bug reported interdictors. I've had my corp mates bug report freighter log-off's. I've posted on the forums...Several times, I've created a spearate thread just for the subject.
Still no answers. Not even a comment from CCP. The lack of any response whatsoever to ANYTHING has forced me to believe that CCP wants people to log out to avoid combat.
CCP Hammer, you must be a clueless Asshat.
Shamis
They do and have said so, and the same goes for log on traps.
----------------------------------------------
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Balazs Simon
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Posted - 2006.05.26 15:04:00 -
[165]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Today was the first time I'd heard that the Jump Portal skill was not seeded.
You know this scare me....
Fire the QA !!! .. and refound Seleene for 1 month of subscription. :) He made more effective work than QA :) (j/k I know it is much much more work in QA, but i'M realy scared.. this should be basic, there is something wrong in the method QA work... if they would have any logical method they follow while testing this problem would be detected by them immedietly.
Just a tip. If you release a New ship.. come on create a character, jump into that ship, and DOCK OUT!! <- that is a realy good way to test ships..
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POST WITH YOUR MAIN!
New sig coming soon...
This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the DICE Corporation. |
Caryna
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Posted - 2006.05.26 15:32:00 -
[166]
Originally by: kieron
....
The Devs will be monitoring this thread throughout the next few days to keep abreast of the patch deployment and status.
....
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio C
....
5) Dev B says to Dev A ".. I hate reading general but I guess I'll go check it out ...?"
....
*hm, what statement is correct now 
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Sato Kurosawa
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Posted - 2006.05.26 15:35:00 -
[167]
To me it seems simple Titans were released way before they were ready simply for using in screenies to show how cool eve was and all so to distract us from the fact that bugger all was getting done bug wise and that they were slowly shifting resources to china
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:06:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Still no answers. Not even a comment from CCP. The lack of any response whatsoever to ANYTHING has forced me to believe that CCP wants people to log out to avoid combat.
They do and have said so, and the same goes for log on traps.
Your response is sufficiently vague that I don't relly know if you are saying that CCP wants people to log out, or that they said they don't want people to log out. But the FACT is that logging out guarantees safety in several common situations where it clearly shouldn't. I've gone into detail on this before, and I've never ever heard CCP mention anything about it. They are either ignoring the issue, or totally oblivious.
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:07:00 -
[169]
We do infact have a QA department, they come to me and complain about some ship/module being overpowered/underpowered every day To understand why such a bug would slip through the *****s for so long then you have to understand the way that stuff is put on the market. Prior to seeding there are some things that need to done. The item in question needs to have a market entry, it needs to have some corporations that actually sell the item and it needs to have a price. If it fulfills all those criterias on TQ the item can be seeded at next downtime.
The market seeding is pretty hard to test because it isn't properly seeded anywhere but on TQ. So since this is virtually untestable and isn't noticable by the community until its too late then we have to be extra careful about doing this correctly.
In blood, which was released shortly before christmas we kind of took care of our "own stuff". For example I was responsible for the mining foreman modules so I was responsible to put the skills, blueprints and all that is needed on the market. With that patch it kind of became obvious that this method was a bit lacking. We need to be able to test this stuff before the patch came out. But usually its pretty obvious what items we've forgotten. Few hours after the patch people were starting to complain about stuff that didn't come out. These skills however weren't noticed, probably because not many people use them, I mean how many Titan and Mothership pilots are there and how many were going to start on those skills straight away.
So here is a bit of an explanation of why this went so horribly wrong. Its however not an excuse and we are working on improving the way we release our content and get it properly tested. All I can say for now is we're sorry and we'll try to fix this asap.
_______________ |
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Zeta Draconis
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:12:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 15:54:25
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 15:44:22
Out of curiosity why did u edit both of your posts (after Molle comment) ?
They (mostly the second one) sounded spot on at the first "release".
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Agenor Deteis
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:16:00 -
[171]
plz Rod, calm down!
Getting personal will only get you forum banned, nothing more. Ghandi style should be more effective...
But your points stands, Hammer's post wasn't correct ever.
Although I doubt you were lying to us, Hammer, but the fact that you did't hear about the skill not seeded for 6 months can not be our fault.
Bug reporting, maybe even the whole petition system needs a serious change.
My idea would be to introduce a new ISD department just for this purpose. Volunteers with a direct link to the responsible Dev, who assist both the player reporting a bug(obviously not exploits) on the forums and the BHs/DEVs to get the bug fixed.
I would appreciate an extra forum section with extreme posting rules to post bugs, test results and suggestions.
_________________________________________________
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Flipidy Floo
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:24:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Flipidy Floo on 26/05/2006 16:26:44
Originally by: Tuxford
We do infact have a QA department, they come to me and complain about some ship/module being overpowered/underpowered every day To understand why such a bug would slip through the *****s for so long then you have to understand the way that stuff is put on the market. Prior to seeding there are some things that need to done. The item in question needs to have a market entry, it needs to have some corporations that actually sell the item and it needs to have a price. If it fulfills all those criterias on TQ the item can be seeded at next downtime.
The market seeding is pretty hard to test because it isn't properly seeded anywhere but on TQ. So since this is virtually untestable and isn't noticable by the community until its too late then we have to be extra careful about doing this correctly.
In blood, which was released shortly before christmas we kind of took care of our "own stuff". For example I was responsible for the mining foreman modules so I was responsible to put the skills, blueprints and all that is needed on the market. With that patch it kind of became obvious that this method was a bit lacking. We need to be able to test this stuff before the patch came out. But usually its pretty obvious what items we've forgotten. Few hours after the patch people were starting to complain about stuff that didn't come out. These skills however weren't noticed, probably because not many people use them, I mean how many Titan and Mothership pilots are there and how many were going to start on those skills straight away.
So here is a bit of an explanation of why this went so horribly wrong. Its however not an excuse and we are working on improving the way we release our content and get it properly tested. All I can say for now is we're sorry and we'll try to fix this asap.
And yet sadly gux, apology and all, people will still bash you. I'm ashamed to be a member of this community sometimes when people who have no clue what they're talking about rant and rave.
It's a complex game; the most complex I've come across and will therefore have issues in proportion to it's complexity. But it's also a game that has been fantastic for the 2 years I've played and shows growing popularity.
People would just rather complain than try to fix the problem...
And btw Selene, when you hear of people who've submitted a bug rather than do it yourself, 99% of the time it's never been submitted; because Jonny heard that Randi heard that Phillys heard that Pete submitted a bug report when all that really happened was nothing. Yet there you have 4 people saying a bug report was submitted, and they won't explain how they know for sure.
Do it yourself or don't complain.... Also, realize, god forbid you should spend 10 minutes to explain a bug report to help the devs rather than spend 5 hours posting on the forums how much the devs suck and it's not your job to submit bugs. Everytime you think that, the problem persist.
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Astrum Ludus
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:25:00 -
[173]
I've worked in two QA departments, one for a major games studio (much larger than CCP).
The amount of bugs that seem to slip through your net is amazing.
I can fully understand that some things you can't fix due to resources but this isn't my point. You release bugged content!
By the time you deployed the patch that was meant to contain these items I would have thought you had a list of all changes and features to go in, a full regression suite for all the testable content and a specific list of things that can't be tested prior to deployment.
If you had these things (which are utterly standard and afaik form part of the SIGIST standards for testing) problems like the ones in this thread simply would not take this long to be resolved and often wouldn't exist at all.
I mean are you seriously telling me you can't have a guy with a tick list adding these items and signing for them?
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:26:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 26/05/2006 16:26:11
Tux, I think thats about all that was needed to be said mate. Im not the forum ***** i used to be, but tbh, this is all id like from the devs, just an honest answer and a bit of an explanation so we can all understand it.
Cheers.
-
Rise.
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Flipidy Floo
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:29:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Astrum Ludus
I've worked in two QA departments, one for a major games studio (much larger than CCP).
The amount of bugs that seem to slip through your net is amazing.
I can fully understand that some things you can't fix due to resources but this isn't my point. You release bugged content!
By the time you deployed the patch that was meant to contain these items I would have thought you had a list of all changes and features to go in, a full regression suite for all the testable content and a specific list of things that can't be tested prior to deployment.
If you had these things (which are utterly standard and afaik form part of the SIGIST standards for testing) problems like the ones in this thread simply would not take this long to be resolved and often wouldn't exist at all.
I mean are you seriously telling me you can't have a guy with a tick list adding these items and signing for them?
Oh and I'm sure your game never had these problems cause this forum whining and complaining, and the game issues are new and exclusive to Eve. I've never seen this anywhere else at all; nope never!
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:30:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Zeta Draconis
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 15:54:25
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 15:44:22
Out of curiosity why did u edit both of your posts (after Molle comment) ?
They (mostly the second one) sounded spot on at the first "release".
Because if Molle tells me something I said is over the top I tend to agree with him.
He's more often right then I am you see. And I must say that on second thought wording could be mroe respectfull, yet the message remain the same. I don't think I changed the message much did I ? It just sounds a little nicer, which reflects my respect for the work that Hammer and consorts do that does go as it should.
Old blog |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:49:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Flipidy Floo
And btw Selene, when you hear of people who've submitted a bug rather than do it yourself, 99% of the time it's never been submitted; because Jonny heard that Randi heard that Phillys heard that Pete submitted a bug report when all that really happened was nothing.
These people are in my own corp who are involved in the production of such vessels and lying to the CEO is not considered smart or healthy.
-
History of the MC movie! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:09:00 -
[178]
The missing stuff is known for month?
Basicly when something new comes out, people log in, check market, see what its missing, having a lauhg in corp chat, posting on forums/bug reporting and then waiting till its gets done.
Im not involved in any kind of building stuff, but alone browsing in most chats for 10mins can tell you what has been forgotten in the latest patch.
Seleene didnt make the post cause he just noticed it. He made the post cause it got noticed 2 month ago and still nothing has been done to solve the problem.
And if players invest multi billions, HOPING that the stuff will get fixed when its done its a beed keen to say: Ohh, we just havent noticed yet
Summertime - Campingtime!
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:34:00 -
[179]
It is undestandable that market seeding would be missed since they would just put the mods themselves on the test server.
But the fact that bug reports and forum complaints fall on deaf ears for weeks and months isn't.
CCP should have somebody who does nothing but browse the forums and look at bug reports and come up with a list of issues that the community thinks are serious. Then developers wouldn't have an excuse for being so aloof.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:46:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Seleene on 26/05/2006 17:47:10
Originally by: Tuxford
So here is a bit of an explanation of why this went so horribly wrong. Its however not an excuse and we are working on improving the way we release our content and get it properly tested. All I can say for now is we're sorry and we'll try to fix this asap.
Tux, regardless of the mess, thank you for your honesty. It is much appreciated. I look forward to seeing things get resolved so my pilots can wake up in the Nyx's for some jump clone pwnage. 
PS - When exactly can we expect that??? 
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History of the MC movie! |
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