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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:47:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
5) Patch day comes, bug is fixed and everyone is happy
So where do we bug report the bug report system? I think everything I've submitted must be going to /dev/null or something.
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Rthor
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:55:00 -
[182]
Originally by: SirMolle
Edited by: SirMolle on 26/05/2006 15:31:11
Rod, stfu k.
See see! He is a dev after all!
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.05.26 18:18:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: SirMolle
Edited by: SirMolle on 26/05/2006 15:31:11
Rod, stfu k.
See see! He is a dev after all!
Lol
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Zeta Draconis
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Posted - 2006.05.26 18:46:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Zeta Draconis
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 15:54:25
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/05/2006 15:44:22
Out of curiosity why did u edit both of your posts (after Molle comment) ?
They (mostly the second one) sounded spot on at the first "release".
Because if Molle tells me something I said is over the top I tend to agree with him.
He's more often right then I am you see. And I must say that on second thought wording could be mroe respectfull, yet the message remain the same. I don't think I changed the message much did I ? It just sounds a little nicer, which reflects my respect for the work that Hammer and consorts do that does go as it should.
I see, ty for the answer.
Knowing both you and Molle (from being inside bob for quite some time) I can see what you mean.
/respect
P.S.
I only asked because I never saw you edit one of your posts iirc, and because I like your style: blunt (in a positive way) and straight to the point.
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Nova Strikes
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Posted - 2006.05.26 19:56:00 -
[185]
we'll get there in the end and ASCN is already unstoppable Seleene. 
*huggles Tux and hammer*
I dont want you guys to fail  *kicks the **** out of horrid, ebil consumers * I want CCP to ***** the chinese markets and get fat rich, and then we'll have loads of content and Eve will live happily ever after.
ps: this isnt going to be seperate is it, i mean the chinese will be with us right? bah its all good
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.05.26 21:03:00 -
[186]
Maybe someone should summarize all forum complaints into a single list that can be stickied. Then if any dev or other person wants to quickly find out what people are complaining about, they can just check the list. The list should probably keep bugs (things that don't work right) and balance issues separate. |
Kastar
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Posted - 2006.05.26 21:13:00 -
[187]
In fact, not a lot is said. Someone took the blame in name of the devs, Thanks for that Tux.
However, what will be solved exactly when ? Without being disrespectful, isn't sth of this size worth to be handled by the producer ? I have the impression the number of Oveur posts has diminished drastically.
-----------------------------------------------
Looking for corp :)
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Grainsalt
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Posted - 2006.05.26 23:27:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Grainsalt on 26/05/2006 23:29:18
So basically, the jump portals are not there, the clone vats are not there..
Lets face it if they were coded we would have some proud dev/gm showing them off on the test server.. lets not kid ourselves..
If the code is written and working (as it should be on test).. lets see what the inside of a titan looks like on the test server .. (You are jumping to a clone there so why cant we see that working on the test server)..
It has nothing to do with seeding of skills, on the test server they can do what they want.. Simple fact is that it isnt there becuase it is not done yet and "we" got ther too quick for the fix.
Otherwise we would have screen shots left right and center showing us what jumping to a titan would look like or jumping battleships through a jump portal would look like.. And if it was coded .. do you not think CCP would not have included THAT in the e3 video..
c'mon
BTW this is not flamebait... I WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG.. Show the items that havent been "seeded" i.e. the skill or BP isn't there .. ACTUALLY WORKS ON THE TEST SYSTEM.
---
For T2 Tinfoil Hats, contact Grainsalt ingame.
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.05.27 00:07:00 -
[189]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
5) Patch day comes, bug is fixed and everyone is happy
People have zero reason to believe that A works best. Zero.
While A should be the choice for all players, you are missing something vital, the lack of which at the moment makes it more or less worthless to them: Feedback.
Step 2, 3 and 4 might all lead to that the bug is forgotten, fixed wrong, rejected wrongfully, prioritised wrongfully, severity underestimated, what have you. All without the knowledge of the community, that might put you on the right track, should any of those mishaps occur.
Not saying we need a webcam on each dev to track all their work. But its hard not to ask for a little improvement.
And imagine if people actually saw their reports getting assessed, approved, acknowledged - perhaps even fixed? They might even prefer using scenario A?
Right now you are dangling a cloaked Carrot II in front of people and chastice them for going for the apples and oranges instead.
Please resize your signature so that it is within the forum rule size limits - Jacques |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.27 00:32:00 -
[190]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Seleene
Guys and gals, I didn't start this to bash the Devs. I just want some solid answers. To me, the lowly player with zero concept of things like 'programming time', the seeding of skills and modules seems like a simple thing. If it's not, I'd like to know why. If there is a reason for the delay, I'd like to know that.
If Ovuer just got drunk and forgot to whack the code monkeys, I'd like to know that too.
It actually is easy to seed skills. Bug reports are your friend. Here are three scenerios:
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
5) Patch day comes, bug is fixed and everyone is happy
Hammer, in all seriousness:
Are a lot of submitted bug reports being lost? Perhaps a automatic "copy email of Bug to player to show it's logged" function would be good. Just a thought.
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Heather Drauls
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Posted - 2006.05.27 08:11:00 -
[191]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Today was the first time I'd heard that the Jump Portal skill was not seeded. Tux fixed the mothership volume thing so it will be on TQ after the fix goes through the proper channels.
With respect... get someone to write a dependancy walker and have it send you ALL a report after each patch is implemented showing you what's broken because of seeding issues 
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jarack
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Posted - 2006.05.27 08:26:00 -
[192]
yeah when can i have the skills to get my titan jumped out of the pos its in and into some pvp!!!!
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.30 15:09:00 -
[193]
"We do infact have a QA department, they come to me and complain about some ship/module being overpowered/underpowered every day  "
Oh, you mean Ships&Modules forum section? ;P
"To understand why such a bug would slip through the *****s for so long then you have to understand the way that stuff is put on the market. (..)
The market seeding is pretty hard to test because it isn't properly seeded anywhere but on TQ. So since this is virtually untestable and isn't noticable by the community until its too late then we have to be extra careful about doing this correctly. (..)
But usually its pretty obvious what items we've forgotten. Few hours after the patch people were starting to complain about stuff that didn't come out. These skills however weren't noticed, probably because not many people use them, I mean how many Titan and Mothership pilots are there and how many were going to start on those skills straight away."
Tux, this explanation begs an obvious question. If skill seeding cannot be verified until things hit TQ, why isn't your QA department testing the presence of skills once things hit TQ ... and instead you guys apparently just rely on players to notice and 'start complain' if things are missing?
I suppose it's easier and saves you some resources but.. well, it does strike as a really half-assed way to go about it, doesn't it? :/
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.05.30 18:17:00 -
[194]
Um, sorry for saying this, but your QA must be... *ahem*.
There are too many obvious bugs/ooversights that lead to that assumption... or you guys don't talk to each other.
And I'm not talking about bugs that would need you programming behemoths to dig deep into the code... DB entries? C'mon.
That's assuming you're telling the truth and you've already tested the stuff and not withholding them to iron out a bug or two. |
Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.05.30 18:23:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Max Teranous on 30/05/2006 18:24:07
So, anyone read next week's patch notes?
<------------ thataway
Edit: damn it, the arrow thing would have been soooo much better if I was at the top of the page, not at the bottom
Max 
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Almiel
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Posted - 2006.05.30 21:16:00 -
[196]
á á
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.05.30 21:50:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Riddari
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
5) Patch day comes, bug is fixed and everyone is happy
You know I really really really really really really really would like this.
Not seen it these past 3 years though, seriously.
I think #2 in hammer's process is SEVERELY at fault here. Who exactly are these "preliminary" filterers? It is the failure of these people to pass on valid bug reports that lead players to choosing Hammer's less desired options of B and C, over A.
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Freada
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Posted - 2006.05.30 21:52:00 -
[198]
This might be way to simple to actually work but what if part of the QA proccess was to login after new content has been added and to actually try to use it live.
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.05.30 21:53:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Cummilla on 30/05/2006 21:56:22
Originally by: SirMolle
Edited by: SirMolle on 26/05/2006 15:31:11
Rod, stfu k.
meh- edited.....not a bob thread. Revealing, yet not appropriate here heh.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2006.05.31 07:58:00 -
[200]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Scenerio A
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
5) Patch day comes, bug is fixed and everyone is happy
Unfortunately, a lot of players seem to start off down this route ok but for some reason go off track at about step 3.:
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) Player decides that because he hasn't heard anything in several days (which could even happen to be over a weekend/public holiday), the Devs are ignoring the issue.
5) Player whines on forum
6) RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
7) A Dev comes on the forum to post reply.
8) Dev gets whined at because the issue isn't fixed, for posting instead of fixing, for admitting that there's a problem and for covering up the extent of the problem (often all in the same thread).
9) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
10) Players come on forums to whine that it isn't on TQ already, that the fix wasn't the one they wanted, and that it's only being fixed because of a BoB conspiracy.
11) A few days pass
12) Players come on forums to simultaneously whine that the fix they want isn't on TQ yet, and that the latest Sisi patch is broken.
13) Patch finalised and released on TQ
14) Players come on forums to whine that their pet issue wasn't fixed by the last patch, that a patch to fix a critical issue was released with a known cosmetic bug, and that half the things fixed by the patch weren't really bugs to begin with.
15) Devs fire up their pirate TQ characters and pod as many players as they can find (this step assumed).
As you can see, all the basic ingredients of Scenario A, but with a lot of unnecessary whining.
-------
There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.05.31 08:32:00 -
[201]
As much as I appreciate your views Matthew, I think the whine label is far too liberally thrown about in my opinion. Any form of critism is labelled as whine nowadays and that, in my opinion, is not healthy.
People should be encourage to heap constructive critism without being shouted down by people telling them they are whiners.
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Rise.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.05.31 08:47:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
As much as I appreciate your views Matthew, I think the whine label is far too liberally thrown about in my opinion. Any form of critism is labelled as whine nowadays and that, in my opinion, is not healthy.
People should be encourage to heap constructive critism without being shouted down by people telling them they are whiners.
The problem is that most people have forgotten how to be polite or reasonable :P
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.05.31 08:53:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
As much as I appreciate your views Matthew, I think the whine label is far too liberally thrown about in my opinion. Any form of critism is labelled as whine nowadays and that, in my opinion, is not healthy.
People should be encourage to heap constructive critism without being shouted down by people telling them they are whiners.
The problem is that most people have forgotten how to be polite or reasonable :P
beeing polite is overrated
From Dusk till Dawn |
Mysticaa
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Posted - 2006.05.31 09:14:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Matthew
Unfortunately, a lot of players seem to start off down this route ok but for some reason go off track at about step 3.:
1) Player submits bug report
2) Bug report is filtered by bug hunters
3) Dev recieves bug report and fixes bug as soon as feasibly possible
4) Player decides that because he hasn't heard anything in several days (which could even happen to be over a weekend/public holiday), the Devs are ignoring the issue.
5) Player whines on forum
6) RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
7) A Dev comes on the forum to post reply.
8) Dev gets whined at because the issue isn't fixed, for posting instead of fixing, for admitting that there's a problem and for covering up the extent of the problem (often all in the same thread).
9) QA tests fix and ports it to test server for players to test
10) Players come on forums to whine that it isn't on TQ already, that the fix wasn't the one they wanted, and that it's only being fixed because of a BoB conspiracy.
11) A few days pass
12) Players come on forums to simultaneously whine that the fix they want isn't on TQ yet, and that the latest Sisi patch is broken.
13) Patch finalised and released on TQ
14) Players come on forums to whine that their pet issue wasn't fixed by the last patch, that a patch to fix a critical issue was released with a known cosmetic bug, and that half the things fixed by the patch weren't really bugs to begin with.
15) Devs fire up their pirate TQ characters and pod as many players as they can find (this step assumed).
As you can see, all the basic ingredients of Scenario A, but with a lot of unnecessary whining.
lol that about sums it up. However I believe you need a bit more whinage in there.
-----------------------------------------------
Why do I post here?
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.05.31 09:50:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Seleene on 31/05/2006 09:50:40
Originally by: Matthew
As you can see, all the basic ingredients of Scenario A, but with a lot of unnecessary whining.
Considering that the Devs were not even aware of this issue (an over six month old one, I might add) until the time of this thread, I think you might be open to the possibility that there is:
- Whining.
- Asking for an explaination.
- Making a legitimate complaint.
This thread fell into the later two.
The biggest problem is that the vast majority of "whiners" don't bother to keep themselves informed. On this particular issue, myself and several others had a legitimate grievance with the way CCP has handled this issue. Tux came out and cleared things up and not only are the changes in next week's patch notes, but they even hit a couple more areas of these ships that needed attention.
CCP is not perfect and this was a prime example of that. However, in the end they came through like always and set things right. It's why I stay with this game and why I'll continue to play for years to come.
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History of the MC movie! |
Saerid
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Posted - 2006.05.31 10:30:00 -
[206]
Just because something gets bug reported doesn't seem to be any kind of a guarantee it actually registers as a bug and someone who knows something about the subject at hand will take a look. Case in point , the Gallente/Amarr silo capacity issue.
Well over a year old bug. Reported multiple times. And it took close to 10 months before any dev even acknowledged it existed. There are any number of legit issues which are diligently reported as bugs multiple times and still get lost down some /dev/null at CCP, at which point only course of action is to start making a fuss about it.
Another would be the drone issues, with some dev occasionally & unhelpfully piping up that his drones are returning just fine and behaving normally and whatnot while there's hundreds of people ranting about them on the forums.
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Torquemanda Corteaz
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Posted - 2006.05.31 11:02:00 -
[207]
Just how many people could have bug reported the lack of these skills needed for motherships and titans? A handful - a dozen at most I would imagine... now how many bugreports will your average BH sift through a day?
come on guys noone is perfect..
usually when there is an almighty avalanche of bugreports something gets done, just because you heard that 5 people have reported it already shouldn't stop you I feel, 5 people reporting a known bug out of lets say... 5000 other bug reports that get sent isn't going to have a 100% success rate of getting flagged
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2006.05.31 11:27:00 -
[208]
In an effort to be open and honest with the players I hereby present to you my unresolved defect list with priority included. I fully expect to get flamed for this but sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
High New players overflow on China cluster
Medium Chaos: Micro shield extenders use up to much CPU compared to small extenders.
Medium Inderdictor spheres are destroyable
Medium Balance: Fighter production time too long
Medium no kill right generated when podkilled in >0.1 systems
Medium Small Ship Assembly array is 25k m3, and can be removed by some haulers
Medium Precision Cruise missile Productivity research
Medium omg remote hull repairers !!! :D
Medium Minmatar and Caldari based cosmos items suck compared to Amarr and Gallente.
Medium podkills dont count as killrights
Medium Items with missing marketGroupID
Low Tech 1 Mining Crystal Blueprints do not reflect material research
Low Ship Maintence Array - Capital Ships useable
Low Ship Maintenance Array allows to store Capital Ships
Low jaspet mining crystal ii blueprint build regs wrong
Low Wrong Price
Low Shuttles cannot be built at a Small Ship Assembly Array
Low vigil still has it's old speed bonus
None Attributes on Survey Probes list 3 probes to analyze
None Cosmetic: Doomsday Modules do not show range in attributes.
None Armor plates names
None 350mm Railgun Mass seems incongruously low
None Curse Thruster Trails
None Lots of skill attributes require whitespace between words in the attribute tab.
None Minmatar Wolf elite frigate has blue, rather than orange, exhaust trails
Please keep in mind that the reason some of these bugs aren't fixed is not because we are lazy but because there are other mitigating factors. Another point is that some of these might already be fixed but the defect hasnÆt been closed. The final point I should make is that all defects have a comments section that bug hunters and devs can use which also shows who the defect has been assigned to when a defect is reassigned. A defect might jump around between devs as we collect information or opinions about how a certain defect should be resolved.
I'd also like to point out that Tux has 6 unresolved high priority defects which obviously makes me better than him. 
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Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2006.05.31 11:42:00 -
[209]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
In an effort to be open and honest with the players I hereby present to you my unresolved defect list with priority included. I fully expect to get flamed for this but sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
High New players overflow on China cluster
Medium Chaos: Micro shield extenders use up to much CPU compared to small extenders.
Medium Inderdictor spheres are destroyable
Medium Balance: Fighter production time too long
Medium no kill right generated when podkilled in >0.1 systems
Medium Small Ship Assembly array is 25k m3, and can be removed by some haulers
Medium Precision Cruise missile Productivity research
Medium omg remote hull repairers !!! :D
Medium Minmatar and Caldari based cosmos items suck compared to Amarr and Gallente.
Medium podkills dont count as killrights
Medium Items with missing marketGroupID
Low Tech 1 Mining Crystal Blueprints do not reflect material research
Low Ship Maintence Array - Capital Ships useable
Low Ship Maintenance Array allows to store Capital Ships
Low jaspet mining crystal ii blueprint build regs wrong
Low Wrong Price
Low Shuttles cannot be built at a Small Ship Assembly Array
Low vigil still has it's old speed bonus
None Attributes on Survey Probes list 3 probes to analyze
None Cosmetic: Doomsday Modules do not show range in attributes.
None Armor plates names
None 350mm Railgun Mass seems incongruously low
None Curse Thruster Trails
None Lots of skill attributes require whitespace between words in the attribute tab.
None Minmatar Wolf elite frigate has blue, rather than orange, exhaust trails
Please keep in mind that the reason some of these bugs aren't fixed is not because we are lazy but because there are other mitigating factors. Another point is that some of these might already be fixed but the defect hasnÆt been closed. The final point I should make is that all defects have a comments section that bug hunters and devs can use which also shows who the defect has been assigned to when a defect is reassigned. A defect might jump around between devs as we collect information or opinions about how a certain defect should be resolved.
I'd also like to point out that Tux has 6 unresolved high priority defects which obviously makes me better than him.
Thanks for the heads up. Its good to know what the Devs are working on, it removes so many rumors.
Btw, who uses micro shield extenders? I personally think its useless.
**Ship lovers click here** |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.05.31 11:52:00 -
[210]
Hammer, at the risk of being *****y, if your first post in this thread had been more like the above... ya know?
Seriously though, that's an awesome list and goes a long way toward helping the player base understand the mountain of insanity you guys live under. I wonder if you realize just how much we would love to see some kind of centrally updated list showing what you guys are working on? Sure, you might get flamed for it, but I'd bet it would do a lot of good.
The most consistent complaint I see on these forums is the LACK of info coming from the Devs. No one is asking for a day by day calendar, but if we had a something like what you just posted every 2-3 weeks that would be pretty awesome.
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History of the MC movie! |
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