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Apocalypse mission questions (DPS and tank)

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CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.25 22:49:00 - [1] I am getting ready to start planning for my Apocalypse, so I've been giving thought to the setups. I am considering: Highs: As many Mega Pulse I as will fit, maybe some launchers for frigs, or tractor beams Mids: AB (short range weapons!) 3x cap rechargers Lows: 2x LAR II 3x or 4x hardeners 2x or 1x cap power relay (depending on the number of hardeners) OK, so the obvious issues I'm having trouble with: 1. There is no way both LAR II can be sustained here. I've seen people say that they can sustain their LARs, hardeners, and weapons... but I don't see it, unless you run 2 only 2 hardeners, and then your resists suck. 2. The resists: I'm not sure the resists are even good enough with 3 or 4 hardeners... how are you supposed to survive with just 2? Does the 2x LAR II repair so well that only 2 are necessary? 3. DPS. Dear god. With my skills where they are right now, I think I will get around 170 DPS with multifrequency crystals! That is pathetic! WTF? With longer range (which I assume will be necessary at some point during missions), the damage will be even worse. With Tech 2 pulse, I suppose the DPS would just barely break 200... even that is pretty paltry. ... and all of this because drones still agro everything in missions, so I can't use a Dominix instead. Any help appreciated!
Favored Dead	Posted - 2006.05.25 23:00:00 - [2] Whats with your hardener obsession? I find two hardeners to be completely sufficient for any NPC type...
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.25 23:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Favored Dead Whats with your hardener obsession? I find two hardeners to be completely sufficient for any NPC type... In my Brutix, doing level 3s, I use a MAR II and 3 armor hardeners. Spy stash with 2x kin and 2x therm = no warping out ever. Downing the rogue slavers (part 2) still sometimes needs a warpout with 2x therm, 1x explo, 1x em hardeners (and taking the turrets out first). Black market hub needs no warpout with 2x therm, 1x kin, 1x explo (take out turrets first). So uh... yeah. That is my "obsession" with armor hardeners.
Xori Ruscuv	Posted - 2006.05.25 23:04:00 - [4] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/05/2006 23:05:31 Originally by: Favored Dead Whats with your hardener obsession? I find two hardeners to be completely sufficient for any NPC type... I don't know anything about tanking an apoc... but I use as many armor hardeners as I can fit on.
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.05.26 00:33:00 - [5] Whats your engineering skills look like? Namely energy systems op and energy management?
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.26 00:37:00 - [6] Edited by: CivrGrrl19 on 26/05/2006 00:36:55 Originally by: KillmAll187 Whats your engineering skills look like? Namely energy systems op and energy management? Nrg. Sys. Op.: level 5 Nrg. Mgmt.: level 4 Controlled Bursts: level 4
O'Sirius	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:07:00 - [7] Amarr BS skill helps a LOT with Apoc's capacity usage. It both decreases the amount of cap large lasers use on it AND increases the amount of cap Apoc has, thus increasing cap recharge rate. If you can't run two LAR II at once, run one forever, and turn the other one on and off as you need. Anyway, try some lvl 3 missions first in it. Some of those can actually be tough to tank, see how well your setup does.
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:15:00 - [8] Am I in fact over-hardening? In fact, am I over-hardening my Brutix? I'm a bit surprised to hear people say that they think I am "obsessed" with armor hardeners... I thought the 3 or 4 hardeners is what everyone did. In fact, about level 4s I have heard it said that you need at least 80% in the relevant resists. And what about the damage? Am I doing something wrong there, or do Amarr ships just have sad damage? And Tech 2 large turrets are such a pain to train for
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:20:00 - [9] Originally by: CivrGrrl19 Originally by: Favored Dead Whats with your hardener obsession? I find two hardeners to be completely sufficient for any NPC type... In my Brutix, doing level 3s, I use a MAR II and 3 armor hardeners. Spy stash with 2x kin and 2x therm = no warping out ever. Downing the rogue slavers (part 2) still sometimes needs a warpout with 2x therm, 1x explo, 1x em hardeners (and taking the turrets out first). Black market hub needs no warpout with 2x therm, 1x kin, 1x explo (take out turrets first). So uh... yeah. That is my "obsession" with armor hardeners. I tanked lvl 3's in a moa wihtout warping out... wtf
ApollyN	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:23:00 - [10] Kinda depends on the mission but generally 2 hardeners in the main dmg type and 1 in the sub dmg type is enough for most I think. A cpr for 20% more recharge is better than an extra 5% resist or so that the last hardener helps with. My typhoon with crappy cap etc can tank all gurista spawns usin 2 kin and 1 therm and the rest cprs. Most I use a LAR II and then an MAR II to top up if needed and I only get 80% kin and 70% odd therm.
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:25:00 - [11] Originally by: CivrGrrl19 Edited by: CivrGrrl19 on 26/05/2006 01:15:51 Am I in fact over-hardening? In fact, am I over-hardening my Brutix? I'm a bit surprised to hear people say that they think I am "obsessed" with armor hardeners... I thought the 3 or 4 hardeners is what everyone did. (Though I am doing quite well in level 3s with my brutix, always using 1 MAR II and 4 hardeners). In fact, about level 4s I have heard it said that you need at least 80% in the relevant resists. And what about the damage? Am I doing something wrong there, or do Amarr ships just have sad damage? And Tech 2 large turrets are such a pain to train for Depending on what you are tanking 3 hardeners would mostly be enough. Try fitting another MAR on your brutix sicne it get's a bonus to armor repairer efficiency. Just make sure to have good cap recharge on it I can't give advice on hardening for lvl 4 missions as i've never done them, but the apocalypse damage is one of the lowest BS damage outputs ingame afaik. It doesn't have a damage bonus, but 150 dps with a bs? there must be something wrong
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.05.26 02:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Toaster Oven on 26/05/2006 02:02:02 Originally by: CivrGrrl19 1. There is no way both LAR II can be sustained here. I've seen people say that they can sustain their LARs, hardeners, and weapons... but I don't see it, unless you run 2 only 2 hardeners, and then your resists suck. You're right here. With the setup you posted, even with perfect skills there is no way you can sustain reps and guns using TII gear unless you only run 2 hardeners (which is really crappy). The only way to free up a midslot and keep guns/tank fully running is to use faction/officer CPRs and Cap Rechargers. Quote: 2. The resists: I'm not sure the resists are even good enough with 3 or 4 hardeners... how are you supposed to survive with just 2? Does the 2x LAR II repair so well that only 2 are necessary? You don't need as high resists since your repair rate is so high with 2 LAR II. Dual LAR II + 3x hardeners is good enough to tank just about all lvl4 missions. There are only a handful of lvl4 missions where you would need dual LAR II + 4x hardeners, in which case you'll need to fit a cap injector. Dual LAR II + 2 hardeners is pointless. You're better off fitting single rep + 4 or 5 hardeners and freeing up a slot for a utility or damage mod. Quote: 3. DPS. Dear god. With my skills where they are right now, I think I will get around 170 DPS with multifrequency crystals! That is pathetic! WTF? With longer range (which I assume will be necessary at some point during missions), the damage will be even worse. With Tech 2 pulse, I suppose the DPS would just barely break 200... even that is pretty paltry. Your gunnery skills must be terrible. I get nearly 300DPS from just 6x Megapulse II. The last 2 slots I use either heavy missile or torp launchers depending on the mission.
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.26 02:29:00 - [13] Toaster, thanks for clearing up some of my confusion. Originally by: Toaster Oven Your gunnery skills must be terrible. I get nearly 300DPS from just 6x Megapulse II. The last 2 slots I use either heavy missile or torp launchers depending on the mission. Perhaps because they are tech 2? My gunnery skills aren't the greatest... Though when I was calculating my DPS I was not using a log, I used quickfit. Against structure, my dps with 7 best named megapulse is 232. Is that 300 against structure or against default armor/shield?
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.05.26 03:35:00 - [14] The 300 DPS is against structure. All my relevant gunnery skills are at 5 except for Large Pulse Spec and I use a 3% dmg implant.
Hotice	Posted - 2006.05.26 05:51:00 - [15] Apoc is not a damage dealer, but it does enough damge to get the job done. I use this setup: 5 t2 tachyon (UV, Gamma and Multi) 3 t2 medium beams (kills ceptors under 20 sec each) 1 AB 1 Fleet web 2 t2 cap recharger 2 t2 large armor repairer 3 t2 hardeners 2 cpr t2 medium drones Yet to have any problem killing stuff in missions. Even the boss in Gurista Vegeance mission go down under 2 minutes. I only run one repairer at full time and fire the 2nd one on burst. Very rarely do I need to use both repairers at same time for long. Since you use mega pulse, you will need maxed cap skills to run both repairer full time. You need at least 6 cap modules to keep your tank going so you have to remove the AB. Or you can fit a good heavy cap injector to take care of your cap issue. Personally, I think you should use mega beams and heavy pulse setup. 6 mega beams and 2 heavy pulse should give you good damage and range. Range is the best defense. You can kill good number of ships from afar and only take partial damage when the rest of the ships get close. With mega pulse you pretty have to take damage from all the ships at same time, thus you need to run both repairer on. This is your problem really.
Tehyarec	Posted - 2006.05.26 13:51:00 - [16] I don't know about Amarr ships in general, but I can comment on the tanking. On my Gallente battleships I generally have 3 hardeners, or if I deem it necessary (like when I tried my first and so far only level 4 mission), sometimes a fourth. To sustain two large repairers, you must use a Capacitor Booster with the biggest charges. So, swap one cap recharger for a Cap Booster, and use 3 hardeners and 2 relays. Since you don't have to carry ammo, you should be able to bring enough Cap charges to keep you going for a while.
Astrum Ludus	Posted - 2006.05.26 14:19:00 - [17] My Apoc mission setup is as follows: 7 x Dual Heavy Pulse 1 x Tractor In level III missions you don't need to kill anything bigger than BC's, these guns track better hit more often and smash any tank you'll come across. For level IVs I plan to swap them out to Mega Pulse. Tractor is a must on missions unless you ignore loot. 1 x Heavy Cap Injector 1 x Webber 2 x Cap Recharger Fitting the Injector with 800's suddely makes the whole active tank/dual rep setup work :) to be honest you never need to use it (or the second rep) in anything but the very hardest III's. The webber is to aid the drones although it's debatable if you really need it. I'm thinking about swapping it for a tracking enhancer. 2 x LAR 3 x Active Harderners (Therm/Kin/Exp) 1 x CPR 1 x HS Tank from hell, and great resists. If I know I'll be fighting a two damage enemy I'll put 2 specific hardeners on and probably another HS II. 5 x Med drones 5 x Small drones Anti frigate is covered by drones. There can be a lot of them in III's so I use T2 meds and smalls. They don't often get lost, normally it'll happen on the 'wave' based missions, you have to deploy them to finish one wave then the next arrives and aggros your drones. Obviously there are lots of named items and II's in there on my setup :) just fit what you can. Oh btw that setup is utter overkill and I normally use my Retri. Well I did until Pre-Nerfed Tactics blew it to kingdom come last night. Cheers for that guys.
Alzion	Posted - 2006.05.26 14:40:00 - [18] You don't need two large reppers, focus on hardening and cap to run one repper and use any spare lows for heat sinks. --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci

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