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Kiell Amor
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Posted - 2006.05.26 09:27:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Kiell Amor on 26/05/2006 09:55:37
 Originally by: Testy Mctest
Standard way of doing corp insurance would be like this:
Assuming your corp is buying a tier 1 BS from the market for 60m.
Corp buys or builds a ship, you buy it for 60m (net corp: 0 net you: -60m)
Corp insures that ship for 20m (net corp: -20m net you: -60m)
Corp gives you the ship
You get the ship blown up
Corp gets the insurance payout of 60m (net corp: +40m net you: -60m)
Corp buys a new BS and gives you it for free (net corp: -20m net you: -60m)
The end result is, every time you lose a ship, it costs the corp 20 million. All it costs you is the initial layout of 60 million, plus your mods each time. Your corp may mitigate this cost by building the ships themselves, in which case they may, depending on exact numbers (60m and 20m for ship/payout and insurance are merely example numbers; in reality they're a bit different of course) break even. Making profit is highly unlikely.
This is a 'standard' corp ship replacement policy; essentially you buy one battleship and every time you take a loss, the corp instead takes that loss for you. The corp makes this money back through taxes, corp events, loot during fleet ops, and such.
You've not included the original 60m that the corp got.....
Corp buys or builds a ship, you buy it for 60m (net corp: 60m net you: -60m)
Corp insures that ship for 20m (net corp: 40m net you: -60m)
Corp gives you the ship
You get the ship blown up
Corp gets the insurance payout of 60m (net corp: 100m net you: -60m)
Corp buys a new BS and gives you it for free (net corp: 40m net you: -60m)
The corps net loss everytime you lose a BS is still 20m, but they still break even (money-wise) up to the first 3 BS + insurances... this is the way it should work imho (for 'private' BS, not corp owned ones). Note that I havent included the mineral cost to the corp to build the original ship as I'm looking at this only from the viewpoint of it being a corp perk, and from the viewpoint of what you pay for it..... I've assumed that you provide for the corp in other ways as well (which you already said you do).
However the situation you are describing is:
Corp buys or builds a ship, you buy it for 60m (net corp: 60m net you: -60m)
Corp insures that ship for 20m (net corp: 40m net you: -60m)
Corp gives you the ship
You get the ship blown up
Corp gets the insurance payout of 60m (net corp: 100m net you: -60m)
You buy a new BS and corp insure it (net corp: 140m net you: -120m)
And that aint right at all..... lets just hope this is a misunderstanding somewhere
(edited to mention mineral costs)
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.05.26 10:18:00 -
[32]
If I provide a corpmate with a ship, I require it to be insured for corp.
If necessary to 'charge' for it, then it's costed at the insurance cost, rather than the 'buy' cost. (Your 'uninsured loss' is thus your mods + whatever downtime, the corp turns mineral stocks into isks).
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We are recruiting |
Kaeten
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Posted - 2006.05.26 10:29:00 -
[33]
I wouldn't pay more than 30 mill for a new corp insured bs (teir 2 ofc). Otherwise you could just as the other people say insure it yourself.
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Flyyn
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Posted - 2006.05.26 10:37:00 -
[34]
If the corp is to insure and kit out a ship for its members then the members should not have to pay for it.
But I suggest next time wait till you have the cash and buy your own ship.
Dont mind me I am just trying to catch up to DS and HK on the boards.... |
Kiell Amor
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Posted - 2006.05.26 10:39:00 -
[35]
Originally by: James Lyrus
If I provide a corpmate with a ship, I require it to be insured for corp.
If necessary to 'charge' for it, then it's costed at the insurance cost, rather than the 'buy' cost. (Your 'uninsured loss' is thus your mods + whatever downtime, the corp turns mineral stocks into isks).
Lyrus, thats a very fair way to do it:
Corp turns minerals into isk
Player gets 60m BS for 20m
If the player bought a BS from someone else for 60m, then insured it himself for 20m, lost it and got 60m payout then he's lost the same amount of isk (20m) & mods, but by buying from the corp he hasnt had to come up with the same amount of capital.... very nice
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Eskona Runningstar
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Posted - 2006.05.26 11:33:00 -
[36]
As far as I understand corp insurance:
- Corp gives you a ship (or you buy it yourself and donate to corp).
- You pay insurance on the ship, payable to corp.
- You lose ship in a corp operation: You get a new ship that is insured to corp already (corp loses the insurance fee).
- You lose ship in a private operation: You get a new ship and pay the insurance, payable to corp (you lose the insurance fee).
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.05.26 12:58:00 -
[37]
If it should be totally fair, you should pay insurance fee and something to the miners/producers.
Unless ofcourse you help in the mining, then only insurance fee.
And if its lots due to corp forced activity, you should also not pay for the insurance fee.
You could also argument, that the corp taxes is a way to cover insurance fee's..
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Virida
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:24:00 -
[38]
If i dont is WERY wrong, is inshurance cancelled if an ship is handled to an other person, so selling inshured ships to other corps members sounds impossible.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Virida
If i dont is WERY wrong, is inshurance cancelled if an ship is handled to an other person, so selling inshured ships to other corps members sounds impossible.
You do. If you insure a ship for _personal_ use, anyone can fly it but if you're not the person in it when it blows up, there is no payout.
If it is insured for _corp_ then as long as someone in the corp is flying it when it blows up, the corp gets the insurance payout.
Makes 'sharing' ships a lot more civilised.
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We are recruiting |
Tobizuru
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Posted - 2006.05.26 13:54:00 -
[40]
Damn the Man! 
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I <3 my Exclamation |
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Faeden Pain
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Posted - 2006.05.26 14:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dhin Xar
Personally, I can't imagine staying in some of these corps that think their members should be happy just for the privilege of serving.
The more I hang around on the forums, the more it seems like all corps in 0.0 are that way. Certainly the ones that post on the forum.
Faeden Pain
I drank WHAT?!!?!.....Socrates |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.26 15:10:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/05/2006 15:10:22
Implementing whatever BS scheme is a bane to every corp and member.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Tristan
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:19:00 -
[43]
ok Morrigan, fair enough... but lets say hes getting a raw deal, instead ;)
hes not being scammed, but it is a pretty crummy deal. As mentioned earlier, corp insured ships are usually free or incredibly cheap (like insurance cost)
so while hes getting a bum deal i dont think its fair to say scammed. Different corps do things very very differently. Sometimes it even seems some are completley oddball! 
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Ace Garp1
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:09:00 -
[44]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Virida
If i dont is WERY wrong, is inshurance cancelled if an ship is handled to an other person, so selling inshured ships to other corps members sounds impossible.
You do. If you insure a ship for _personal_ use, anyone can fly it but if you're not the person in it when it blows up, there is no payout.
If it is insured for _corp_ then as long as someone in the corp is flying it when it blows up, the corp gets the insurance payout.
Makes 'sharing' ships a lot more civilised.
Hello
i was unaware you could insure for corp
so any person in the corp can fly that ship ( lets say a retriver ) and if it get blown up the insurance still pays out ? 
Damn thats intresting to know
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Erikel
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Posted - 2006.05.26 17:23:00 -
[45]
I'd leave that sorry corp in a heartbeat +24hrs.
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crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:22:00 -
[46]
thanks for your support people.......as of yet, i still have received no response and was on at the same time for several hours last night with my corp poc.
some clarification about circustances:
my main is 8-12 months old but new to 0.0...eager to help with pvp/mining ops, whatever to help corp
i have 7.5 mil sp
we have a 10% corp, refining and reprocessing tax
the battleship was a dominix
i am not attempting to cause a stink within the corp
initial cost was 60 mil t1 domi with t1 mods
i was asked to pay 45 mil for the second one bare bones,(will return it tonight if i dont get communication by the time i get off work)
my only recourse if i stay with the corp is to email the ceo and see if he cares or not.....if not, i will be looking for a new home and new people to hang out with.
i play for 3-5 hours every night, am in 0.0 95% of that time.
if this doenst work out, i will post exactly why i am looking for a new home in the recruitment boards....i just want to find friends to play the game with, not be toyed with.
and i will change the title, as scam may be too harsh, i dont think that the corp is scamming me, just the corp director who i deal with.......im sure that running an alliance is full time, with plenty of council meetings and such, but we rarely hear from upper management and i may want to find a smaller corp to grow with instead of just being another pod.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: crom ralphfao
... but we rarely hear from upper management and i may want to find a smaller corp to grow with instead of just being another pod.
Come and grow with us. We like to adopt lost newbs. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:37:00 -
[48]
jenny......i will contact you; our alliances work together i think. let me try to communicate once more with the director and finally with the ceo, so that at least i can let them know why i am jumping ship.
i have the instas and a little knowledge of the areas below konora/n-rael and would also like to keep in contact with the members who i have worked with. you have a station in 1v, correct?
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: crom ralphfao
jenny......i will contact you; our alliances work together i think. let me try to communicate once more with the director and finally with the ceo, so that at least i can let them know why i am jumping ship.
i have the instas and a little knowledge of the areas below konora/n-rael and would also like to keep in contact with the members who i have worked with. you have a station in 1v, correct?
You think our alliance work together or you know our alliance work together? 
Please contact my servant, Admiral IceBlock for info. I am a little busy these days. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Mi Lai
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:39:00 -
[50]
In my opinion, if you get corp ships, the 'right' price should be at or close to the cost of the platinum insurance for that ship, assuming the ship is corp insured. The Platinum pay out is pretty close to the mineral value in most regions, so should suffice.
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Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:44:00 -
[51]
I'm not sure why they would make you pay for the ship if they were going to insure it for themselves. That seems a bit odd to me.
If they simply gave it to you...then I could understand it.
Click Above |
crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.26 20:52:00 -
[52]
im pretty sure jenny, i'll contact admiral or send an evemail in a little over three hours time....my luchbreack....i am in the southern hemisphere for the next 7 months for work.
i can understand if there is a conflict of interest regarding alliance politics, but i would like to have a chance at being more than a bottom feeder in this game and am willing to work for it, but my current situation makes it difficult to be excited about laying my life down for the "good of the corp"
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crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.26 21:00:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Eximius Josari
I'm not sure why they would make you pay for the ship if they were going to insure it for themselves. That seems a bit odd to me.
If they simply gave it to you...then I could understand it.
true, i was under the impression that working for a corp/alliance in 0.0 was tough but profitable, at this rate it is hard to sustain a wallet and supply my own ships for pvp, as well as being prepared for mandatory operations.
this whole thing ****ed me off enough to start buying skills and blueprints to make my own stuff, if supplied with bpc's(there are always trust issues), i could turn out ships for corpmembers and myself and become useful in another facet........my emails to the corp poc about this have been ignored as well. i think that the fear of infiltration makes people suspicious( for good reasons), but my current ceo was actually my first ceo when i started long ago, i thought that would account for some degree of trust.
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2006.05.26 23:13:00 -
[54]
look mate, at the end of the day its all about playing your role in the game. As far as I can see you are not being taken advantage of, even if they do make isk out of your insurance/ship loss does it really matter as the isk goes to corp that purchases minerls/bpos to build new thing for YOU to further YOUR corp which YOU are a part of. I know of many corps that have a 60-80 percent tax rate and you are probebly some of the most well organised corps out there.
So, it is a game, and if you are having fun doing stuff for your corp then does it really matter?
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2006.05.26 23:19:00 -
[55]
Id also like to add that I do not mind handing over alot of isk to my corp, but I have been in it for a long time, but even newer members enjoy contributing, but that is only because we explain everything to them and show how we spend isk as a corp. Working towards a bigger goal is the only thing that keeps me in this game, if you do not have or do not understand 'a bigger picture' then eve after some time will seem hollow.
My advice to you is to ask why your ship is X ammount and where the rest of it is going, once you understand you will probably take an interest and want to contribute more!
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crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.26 23:49:00 -
[56]
Edited by: crom ralphfao on 26/05/2006 23:51:14
Originally by: Tenacha Khan
look mate, at the end of the day its all about playing your role in the game. As far as I can see you are not being taken advantage of, even if they do make isk out of your insurance/ship loss does it really matter as the isk goes to corp that purchases minerls/bpos to build new thing for YOU to further YOUR corp which YOU are a part of. I know of many corps that have a 60-80 percent tax rate and you are probebly some of the most well organised corps out there.
So, it is a game, and if you are having fun doing stuff for your corp then does it really matter?
me having fun means that i get treated with respect; i dont really see being fleeced as a sign of respect. i pay my taxes and contribute my share, why should i be subject to treatment as a source of easy isk......everything i mine, every rat i pop, every enemy i kill benefits and increases the wealth of the corp.
those minerals came from the members, everything comes from the members; the rules in my corp are very reasonable and i enjoy being there, i have seen and heard of much more throttling management out there than i would ever want to be a part of.
and let me reiterate.....this is one senior member of the corp i am dealing with, i am awaiting a response from the ceo to see if this is his direction and opinion as well......if it is, i will sell my crap and gladly leave. i came here with more money than i have now, due to learning how to pvp and getting some harsh lessons along the way.
i have fun for sure, but i want my fun to lead to advancement for me as well, not just for the time i get to use my skills.
i do understand your points, but i have 9 mil in my wallet, because of outfitting ships(at cost),for pvp to benefit the corp. it would seem a simple courtesy to allow players easy access to ships without bending them over at the same time.
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Chalkis
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Posted - 2006.05.27 03:20:00 -
[57]
read this thread yesterday, and my alt got smoked today after i traded him a ship that I had insured, heres what i got. SO i doubt your corporate masters are making anyhting off you, if anything, your corp is costing itself money.
2006.05.27 02:41
RefID:175286107 This is an automated message. The contract for ship insurance you made for a Breacher from 2006.05.15 05:13:10 to
2006.08.07 05:13:10 is considered invalid because the ship is not your property it belongs to -----------. Due to this no payment is being made
for the reported destruction of this ship.
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crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.27 03:23:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Chalkis
read this thread yesterday, and my alt got smoked today after i traded him a ship that I had insured, heres what i got. SO i doubt your corporate masters are making anyhting off you, if anything, your corp is costing itself money.
2006.05.27 02:41
RefID:175286107 This is an automated message. The contract for ship insurance you made for a Breacher from 2006.05.15 05:13:10 to
2006.08.07 05:13:10 is considered invalid because the ship is not your property it belongs to -----------. Due to this no payment is being made
for the reported destruction of this ship.
ouch, sorry for you.......were you the trading the "corp" insured ship to your alt who is also in the same corp?
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Mega Beech
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Posted - 2006.05.27 05:12:00 -
[59]
I have to make a correction to my earlier post before my CEO beats me with a big stick,
On destruction the ship is replaced "Insured" by the corp so I only pay for the Ship + insurance once.
My bad 
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crom ralphfao
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Posted - 2006.05.28 20:47:00 -
[60]
thanks for the support people......
i have received some encouragment from my ceo on this issue and am pretty sure that he thinks the overcharging is a little much. in any case, i am beginning production of my own ships, now that i have the proper skills up and access to bpcs from other members.
now i just have to track down some hauler spawns when when our current operation is finished.......my goal is to be able to support my corp and alliance with battleships instead of frigs and cruisers.
thanks again!
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