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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
196
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Posted - 2014.05.12 21:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
1. That frigate is more overpowered than the pre-nerf Dramiel. Holy ****. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to take the Crow, add a fitting slot, increase the missile damage by 33%, give it omni-damage potential, and then give it a 14km scram?
2. Why would I ever fly that battleship when the Rattlesnake exists?
3. Please add more agents. The current Mordus agents are in the MoA home system, with VFK-IV being 3 jumps away. You'll have dozens to hundreds of hostiles to deal with trying to mission here, no matter what corp you're in. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
196
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Posted - 2014.05.12 23:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
The cruiser is fine. It's still way worse than the Ishtar, just like all the other cruisers. At least the scram bonus gives it a possible niche that the Ishtar doesn't already dominate. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
196
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
I honestly don't understand why people are so concerned about the cruiser. It's the same DPS and range as a Cerberus. Is a scram bonus and being somewhat faster that much better than the sig bonus, T2 resists, and non-****** capacitor? The Cerb is nowhere near OP, neither is this. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Only the frigate needs a nerf. The cruiser is fine and the battleship is crap, name one reason why I would ever fly that BS over a Rattlesnake. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.05.14 00:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:You can download the data files for eft from reddit. I've already put together some fits to check the numbers. Of course there are compromises, but the results are staggering.
The best dps I got from the cruiser was 1200(!!) overheated. This was with t2 hams, 4 faction bcu, t2 damage rig and some implants.
This is a *lot* of damage from a dual Asb tanked cruiser that absolutely dictates range and delivers its massive dps at range.
The main problem with the ship is the same problem as the Cerb and every other medium-sized missile ship - medium-sized missiles can't apply damage to small targets. HAM or HML fit, you're going to get soloed by a Malediction and it's going to be embarassing. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.05.14 01:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:The Comparison of the Orthrus to "other speed kiters" is silly.
Cerb: - limited to kinetic damage - 30% less speed - 20% less agility - 20% less damage
Where does this keep coming from? Cerb and Orthrus have the same number of effective launchers. The DPS difference between the two is two light drones, not 20%. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.05.14 01:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:just go an build it in EFT. Cerb with RLMs Fury, 2 Ballistics, T2 Damagerig and 3 Warrior II is 558 DPS Orthrus with RLMs Fury, 2 Ballistics, T1 Damagerig and 5 Warrior II is 659 DPS
So either the EFT is broken, or the Cerb is at around 15% lower DPS and significantly lesser speeds. While the DPS is not what matters. What matters is, that you can easily catch the Cerb with Speedcruisers while you cannot catch the Orthrus with anything that survives the approach.
That's because the Cerb has a RoF bonus which empties the RLMLs faster. With any other missile system the DPS is the same. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.05.14 02:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Syzygium wrote:wtf? did you even read what I wrote? Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed. In that case you have a very strange understanding of "worse". In a potential duel, the Orthrus just *wipes floor* with the Cerb any time. Orbit at 40km, Mjolnir Missles and just wait for the Cerb to pop. The Cerb has no way of escape, nor can it break the 40.000 eHP vs Kin that the Orthrus has, because it has only 23.000 eHP vs EM itself. It just goes down without *any* risk for the Orthrus. But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*. Also, try to name me a SINGLE ship, that can face a kiting Orthrus 1on1, even with the most blingbling available. There is none. All ships that can possibly keep tackle will die long before the Orthrus and all ships that can possibly kill the Orthrus have no chance to hold the tackle, so the Orthrus just leaves the field.
Uh, you realize the Ishtar is a thing, right? Someone posted a HML fit claiming 400 DPS at 80km is broken. Well, the Ishtar does 600 dps at that range with near perfect application too. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
204
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Posted - 2014.05.14 19:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:More EFT warrioring crap. And if you don't get a reply or comment, it's not because you're right - it's because some of us are probably blocking/ignoring you.
The Garmur is overpowered. Which frigate currently in the game can kill an LML Garmur? It ***** on even assault frigates. It's currently better in every way than the pre-nerf Dramiel. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
210
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Posted - 2014.05.15 23:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:I can definitely see the potential of the Garmur to be annoying, But it doesn't really strike me as that much worse than the Current Crow/Condor, aside from being slightly faster with approx 60% more non-kinetic locked damage and the scram range. Unlinked I think most Interceptors will have a hard time with it, but I think the Crusader in particular will give it a run for its money as it's equally fast and a Good sling-shot will get on top of it, and if the Garmur plays too defensively the Crusader can just leave, Damp Crows can run from it, I think the Malediction has a good chance of getting on top of it too, although I think a Garmur will beat a Malediction in a straight up duel if the Garmur does a web. The Imperial Navy Slicer has the potential to kill it too, if the Garmur gets too close (Slicer has 23+4km Optimal and out damages a Garmur and will not take full damage from it, if it is unwebbed, and unlinked, the Slicer will be able to just leave lock-range and warp off if the Garmur plays carefully at 30km or w/e. Standard Dual-Prop Dramiel is equally as quick, and has an AB and low-sig so if it gets a good-slingshot or on top of it, it can kill it easily, otherwise a Dramiel always has the option to leave the field. New Succubus can probably perma-tank the Garmur with AB running, New Cruor with the 20(26km) Vanilla web, or 28km(36.4km) Fed Navy web has the potential to kill it (I think this is a pretty good skill-matchup), DD is almost as fast and if the Garmur is bad it will die. Worm will probably die to the Garmur, but Garmur will probably have to shoot drones (which have 8k EHP)
I think when you add links & Snakes to the mix, it has the potential to become broken (But I think this is true of the Condor/Crow too) since Sensor Integrity + Rapid Deployment & Interdiction Maneuver links will allow it to become near-uncatchable and apply damage from 40km+. I think the same ships mentioned above on equal grounds though and with equal implants would give a linked+imp Garmur a run for its money.
Also worth pointing out that Evasive Maneuver gang link will hurt it's DPS a lot. I think a Garmur without a web vs other linked ships will have super low damage application (Especially Interceptors, Phantasm, Dramiel, anything with Dual Prop options and some kind of tank can probably permatank it) If it has a web then the web range on it I think is close enough that good piloting can land on top of the Garmur.
The thing is the Garmur can out-brawl most frigates in addition to being faster than most of them. The fitting is really generous, you can do DCU + MSE combo in both kiting and brawling fits. A rocket Garmur does the same DPS that a blaster Taranis does at point blank range, only it does it out to 12km. It's also faster than said Taranis, and has double the EHP as well. There is nothing that can catch it that it can't easily out-brawl, it can beat some of the Assault Frigates in a brawl.
Similarly, the LML kiting fits can't really be caught by anything, and escaping a 43km point (before skirmish links) on a ship that's faster than you is pretty much impossible.
The only frigates that it can't outright kill are other LML frigates that have more EHP than it does, and even those can't kill it, they can just drive it off.
Here's a fit I came up with:
Nanofiber II IFFA Micro B66 Core Augmentation (If you have Shield Upgrades V and AWU V, you can use a Pseudoelectron DCU and straight T1 MAPC instead)
Limited MWD Warp Disruptor II Faint Epsilon Scram/Fleeting web MSE II
3x LML II
Polycarb I Calefaction I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
This easily kills every interceptor, frigate, pirate frigate, and every assault frigate except for LML Hawks. |
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
211
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Posted - 2014.05.17 06:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
First off, these ships are going to be absurdly expensive. You've got two ways to get them. The first is rare spawns in low sec. They've said the rarity of MoA spawns that drop BPCs will be equivalent to the rarity of hauler spawns. That's pretty damn rare. Oh, and there's the fact that if you want a chance at these drops, that means belt ratting in low sec. Personally, I would recommend repeatedly slamming your **** in a car door over actually doing this, but that's just me.
Your second option for these ships is Mordus LP, which means running missions while sandwiched in between the CFC and MoA. If you're red to the former, you've got 500 angry reds within 3 jumps of your missioning location. If you're red to the latter, you've got to pick up/turn in missions at their home station/system. Good luck not getting camped into it or getting ganked on the way in and out.
Frankly, I'm predicting a 1bil price tag for the cruiser even a few weeks after release.
Given how expensive the ships are, offgrid skirmish links are going to be a common feature of fights with them. I'm seeing a lot of fits without webs being posted here, and that's really kind of dumb. I don't know how many times I have to post it before people get it, but medium missiles can not apply damage to unwebbed targets smaller than battleships at all. They don't even do great damage even to webbed cruisers once links are involved. A linked Scythe Fleet has a sig of 58, you're close to 60% paper DPS with HAMs even if it's not moving at all and even less with HMLs. If he's actually moving around in that ship, your DPS is basically zero.
If your target isn't webbed, you can't even scratch the paint of battlecruisers. A linked Tornado goes 2827m/sec with just an overheated MWD (no speed mods) and has a sig of 724. Faction HAMs are applying less than 50% of their paper DPS at this point, and that's a battlecruiser. Stuff like T3s, navy omen, vagabond, ishtar just laugh and laugh at your pathetic inability to do anything to them. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah, the frigate is overpowered, the cruiser is underpowered when you consider the cost. To be honest, 60km point is pretty good even if you can't really apply much damage, even at half damage application or less you're still going to out-DPS an Arazu. I posted the last post in response to everyone complaining on how "incredibly overpowered" the cruiser was and it's just BS. It would be a fair ship at the same price of the other pirate faction stuff, but with the absurd price tag it's going to have......no.
The frigate is overpowered because faction light missiles have an exp radius of 30 so the only thing that can get under that is armor tanked, sig-bloom boosted frigates. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.18 17:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Faction losses from ship kills don't cause derived standing modifications, so you won't lose other faction standings from shooting them.
The missions will tank your Gallente/Minmatar factions though, the storylines will give you a derived faction hit to these factions and the agent probably offers Enemies Abound which is a huge hit. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.18 17:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:ConranAntoni wrote:
Most missile systems have been appalling for ages, yet somehow people think a ship that finally works well with something other than rapid lights is op despite missiles inherent damage application problems.
Did you totally miss the like 5 year reign of the drake? What about the tengu being superior to pretty much everything?
Fleets of ships are way, way different than pirate ships because pirate ships are too expensive to run fleets of. The tengu being that good that people ran fleets of them despite the cost is pretty much what got heavy missiles nerfed. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Not true. HAML already apply damage enough. There is a reason why we use so many cerberus and tengus with HAMLs. As long as you are not hunting interceptors
The real question is, if you're going to use HAMs, why aren't you flying a Cerberus instead of this ship? Same DPS, disruptor bonus doesn't help you when your missiles only have 30km range anyways, and the Cerb tanks a lot better.
Remember, the cruiser is going to go for 500m at the bare minimum. You need to find a unique niche for it to make it worth flying for that price. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.22 12:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:And sicne when that will be enough to kill another pirate cruiser or a hac?
I will use HAMS on mine.
Then I hope you're fitting a web, because without one your DPS on pirate cruisers and HACs will be zero. It also kind of makes the point range bonus kind of useless because you have to get into web range to do anything. After MWD, point, and web.....enjoy your 3-slot tank on your billion ISK cruiser.
If you're planning to have someone else tackle, just fly an attack battlecruiser and do tons more DPS from much further away. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.24 04:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Wolf is basically right here, the Nestor is balanced by its cost. If the Nestor cost 500m ISK like the Rattlesnake currently does it would be absurdly broken.
However, balancing by cost and SP is a thing and you should get used to it. The Ishtar is better than all non-pirate cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships at basically everything except ewar, but it's balanced by cost (twice as much as a BS after insurance) and the absurd amount of SP required to fly it to maximum potential. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.30 13:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:You dont need to apply full damage. The same way a ship with AC will almsot NEVER apply full damage. The same way a ship with pulse lasers will also not apply full damage to anything manually cotnrolling trasnversal.
Then you will say.. just web him!! And I shall answer.. and how that is different from the TP you need for the missiles?
THe missile damage applicaiton issue is a MYTH! Missiles just have a different curve of damage application. While Turrets have a more logaritmic curve, missiles have an exponentail curve. Dependign on what part of the domain axis you are one is better than the other.
The problem with missiles is the way skirmish links and piloting skill affect them. On a turret boat, you can improve your turret DPS and/or reduce your opponent's turret DPS with piloting skill, and links/lack of them affect both ships equally. With a missile ship, no amount of piloting skill will ever increase the damage you deal, not will it ever reduce the amount of damage you take from an opponent using missiles.
Also, If both sides have links, a missile user's DPS is massively reduced no matter how good of a pilot he is, while a turret user's DPS is not. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.05.30 17:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Xequecal wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:You dont need to apply full damage. The same way a ship with AC will almsot NEVER apply full damage. The same way a ship with pulse lasers will also not apply full damage to anything manually cotnrolling trasnversal.
Then you will say.. just web him!! And I shall answer.. and how that is different from the TP you need for the missiles?
THe missile damage applicaiton issue is a MYTH! Missiles just have a different curve of damage application. While Turrets have a more logaritmic curve, missiles have an exponentail curve. Dependign on what part of the domain axis you are one is better than the other. The problem with missiles is the way skirmish links and piloting skill affect them. On a turret boat, you can improve your turret DPS and/or reduce your opponent's turret DPS with piloting skill, and links/lack of them affect both ships equally. With a missile ship, no amount of piloting skill will ever increase the damage you deal, not will it ever reduce the amount of damage you take from an opponent using missiles. Also, If both sides have links, a missile user's DPS is massively reduced no matter how good of a pilot he is, while a turret user's DPS is not. AGAin.. PLOT THE GRAPHICS.... There are several parts of the engagement envelope where turrets suffer more. MIssiles are not affected by range whitin the max range limits. MIssiles are more affected by speed but not affected by transversal. That can be a MASSIVE advantage as well. People just want to eat the cake and have it. If you are orbiting an enemy turret ship with your missile ship you are in advantage. If you just go straight ahead.. it syour own fault for not using missiles advantages.
If your opponent is in a skirmish linked cruiser, is not webbed, and you are using missiles bigger than light, your DPS is basically zero. That's not the case with turrets. |
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