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Hellen Kurvora
Kurvora Enterprises
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 07:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, so I hope that this does not come off as a rant out of frustration, but I am asking for some genuine insight here. I have played eve for many years and I understand that BS were changed so that they are not the be all end all of ships. But I fail to see them having any real purpose outside POS bashing, and killing each other/capital ships. The last couple days I have been banging my head against a wall trying to fit my raven to be worth a damn against any ship smaller then a station. I have fit it with rigors, target painters and webs, used faction torps, etc. Yet, I am getting taken out easily by T1 cruisers and faction cruisers. I have max tanking and missile skills, and I know how to fit my ship, as I have played for quite some time. I just fail to see how a ship worth 5 times that of a cruiser, with so many downsides (slow lumbering hulls, terrible lock times) has such a limited and pathetic purpose. It is a battleship, should it not be capable of actual battle?
I am not sure if it is a problem with missiles, or if all battleship have this problem. Or maybe that it is just the raven. It could be the latter seeing as if I really try, the best tank I can get on a raven is 110k ehp. I know cruisers that can almost double that. What am I doing wrong? I get the whole explosion velocity/radius mechanic and have fit my ship accordingly with webs painters and rigs, as well as faction missiles. But I just seems every time I am outmatched. I lost the last time to a navy vexor who somehow supposedly managed to get 46k armor hit points, no not EHP, but armor hit points. I could not achieve that on my raven if I fit the entire ship for tank and fit no weapon systems. I am just getting really frusterated, I like flying battleships, but they feel so lack luster. Please help! |

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3269
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 08:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Try some cruise missiles and some large neuts. Oh god. |

Hellen Kurvora
Kurvora Enterprises
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 08:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Are cruise better verse smaller targets? neat didnt know |

Meiyang Lee
Game Instrument Applications
43
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 08:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:Are cruise better verse smaller targets? neat didnt know
Cruise Missiles got a rather large buff a while back, they deal more damage and always have been better against smaller targets, they're just even better now. |

Hellen Kurvora
Kurvora Enterprises
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 09:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Meiyang Lee wrote:Hellen Kurvora wrote:Are cruise better verse smaller targets? neat didnt know Cruise Missiles got a rather large buff a while back, they deal more damage and always have been better against smaller targets, they're just even better now.
Does this apply at close ranges as well? Any tips for tanking out my raven? Is it normal that these cruisers are getting equal dps and more tank then a raven?? |

Meiyang Lee
Game Instrument Applications
43
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 09:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:Meiyang Lee wrote:Hellen Kurvora wrote:Are cruise better verse smaller targets? neat didnt know Cruise Missiles got a rather large buff a while back, they deal more damage and always have been better against smaller targets, they're just even better now. Does this apply at close ranges as well? Any tips for tanking out my raven? Is it normal that these cruisers are getting equal dps and more tank then a raven??
Range is nearly irrelevant with missiles, only speed and signature size count. As long as it's not outside the maximum range for the missile it will hit (unless the ship is faster than the missile, which is unlikely), whether it does any damage depends on the other 2 factors for the most part.
As for fitting your Raven for PvP, I don't know, I'm quite strictly a carebear, so I have very limited knowledge of PvP fits. But sites like Battleclinic and such should have plenty of fits available if you look for them. |

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3270
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 10:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
There's also RHML launcher, which is a BS sized HM launcher. It's kinda hard to explain but you'll see what I mean. Oh god. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15551
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 10:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:Ok, so I hope that this does not come off as a rant out of frustration, but I am asking for some genuine insight here. I have played eve for many years and I understand that BS were changed so that they are not the be all end all of ships. But I fail to see them having any real purpose outside POS bashing, and killing each other/capital ships. The last couple days I have been banging my head against a wall trying to fit my raven to be worth a damn against any ship smaller then a station. I have fit it with rigors, target painters and webs, used faction torps, etc. Yet, I am getting taken out easily by T1 cruisers and faction cruisers. I have max tanking and missile skills, and I know how to fit my ship, as I have played for quite some time. I just fail to see how a ship worth 5 times that of a cruiser, with so many downsides (slow lumbering hulls, terrible lock times) has such a limited and pathetic purpose. It is a battleship, should it not be capable of actual battle?
I am not sure if it is a problem with missiles, or if all battleship have this problem. Or maybe that it is just the raven. It could be the latter seeing as if I really try, the best tank I can get on a raven is 110k ehp. I know cruisers that can almost double that. What am I doing wrong? I get the whole explosion velocity/radius mechanic and have fit my ship accordingly with webs painters and rigs, as well as faction missiles. But I just seems every time I am outmatched. I lost the last time to a navy vexor who somehow supposedly managed to get 46k armor hit points, no not EHP, but armor hit points. I could not achieve that on my raven if I fit the entire ship for tank and fit no weapon systems. I am just getting really frusterated, I like flying battleships, but they feel so lack luster. Please help!
Allow me to point you to the Navy Raven with it's Precision bonus.
Also are you using torps? Don't use torps. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |

Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
242
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 10:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:navy vexor who somehow supposedly managed to get 46k armor hit points, no not EHP, but armor hit points. Figured this was just blowing smoke but it can be done. Dual 1600 plates, links, T1 trimarks and HG slaves gets around 45k armor so a hardwiring could probably get you there but that's a pretty extreme case and I wouldn't worry about running into that much. Going with T2 trimarks and going overboard on the hardwiring can actually get you in excess of 50k armor HP. I would also wonder if that was really a fit someone was using or just a theorycraft, being a drone boat it could work but its speed and agility are very bad and two plates already takes a fitting mod for grid with only two slots filled.
As for your Raven you might actually be better off to active tank (ASB or not) and go for small gangs of 2-4 cruisers with either no logi or one T1 logi at most. Shield battleships don't get the EHP that armor tanks do because LSEs fit to cruisers without much effort and they really fall short of a 1600 plate for raw HPs. The fact that you need mids for tackle, prop and e-war also will take a big bite out of your EHP potential if you are actually solo. Armor tends to work better for solo as you have to be your own tank/gank/tackle/e-war and when you are armor tanked there is less competition for available slots as opposed to shield tanking where everything wants in the mids. As has been said already get cruise launchers on there, Torps may look good in EFT but are really pretty poor when actually fired at a thing unless said victim is afk and not moving. |

Hellen Kurvora
Kurvora Enterprises
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 21:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thank you all for the great input! |

Reppyk
The Black Shell Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
572
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:Figured this was just blowing smoke but it can be done. Dual 1600 plates, links, T1 trimarks and HG slaves gets around 45k armor so a hardwiring could probably get you there but that's a pretty extreme case and I wouldn't worry about running into that much. Going with T2 trimarks and going overboard on the hardwiring can actually get you in excess of 50k armor HP. I would also wonder if that was really a fit someone was using or just a theorycraft, being a drone boat it could work but its speed and agility are very bad and two plates already takes a fitting mod for grid with only two slots filled. Cmon bro', you don't have your own pocket-size erebus ? Only 50k HP, tss tss.
I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. -áI AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER. Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖÑ |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2138
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Big ships are most effective against one class smaller and other big ships? What a shocker. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
424
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
-Use precision cruises -Use RHMLs -Use a Typhoon instead of a Raven (application bonus) -Use an LMJD to give yourself a big range advantage and the chance to get away
Lots of options, but it doesn't sound like you're using any of them. |

Tusker Crazinski
Missing Clones Syndicate The.Spanish.Inquisition
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
BS sized gun boats are pretty brutal with support, and if you're really tricky you can drop AV on frigs and track them. plus you have a big drone bay and heavy nuets. |

Rakkis Grath
The Order of the Holy Asteroid
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
If you're solo, I'd say a BS isn't the right ship for the job. In a group where you don't NEED to be on top of them for point purposes then range is the Raven pilot's friend. You should be 100-120km away pounding them to dirt, too close for them to warp to, too far for them to do anything but swear at you. Precisions may help if you have t2 launchers though they reduce your top ranges noticeably. Should still be over 100km though depending on your skills. |

Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
261
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 04:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:Are cruise better verse smaller targets? neat didnt know
You claim to know missile mechanics and then use TORPS against cruisers? Not cruise missile? Not even rhml ( which would have pasted that vexor) LP store weapon cost rebalance |

Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
133
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 06:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:Ok, so I hope that this does not come off as a rant out of frustration, but I am asking for some genuine insight here. I have played eve for many years and I understand that BS were changed so that they are not the be all end all of ships. But I fail to see them having any real purpose outside POS bashing, and killing each other/capital ships. The last couple days I have been banging my head against a wall trying to fit my raven to be worth a damn against any ship smaller then a station. I have fit it with rigors, target painters and webs, used faction torps, etc. Yet, I am getting taken out easily by T1 cruisers and faction cruisers. I have max tanking and missile skills, and I know how to fit my ship, as I have played for quite some time. I just fail to see how a ship worth 5 times that of a cruiser, with so many downsides (slow lumbering hulls, terrible lock times) has such a limited and pathetic purpose. It is a battleship, should it not be capable of actual battle?
I am not sure if it is a problem with missiles, or if all battleship have this problem. Or maybe that it is just the raven. It could be the latter seeing as if I really try, the best tank I can get on a raven is 110k ehp. I know cruisers that can almost double that. What am I doing wrong? I get the whole explosion velocity/radius mechanic and have fit my ship accordingly with webs painters and rigs, as well as faction missiles. But I just seems every time I am outmatched. I lost the last time to a navy vexor who somehow supposedly managed to get 46k armor hit points, no not EHP, but armor hit points. I could not achieve that on my raven if I fit the entire ship for tank and fit no weapon systems. I am just getting really frusterated, I like flying battleships, but they feel so lack luster. Please help!
Appereantly you dont know how to fit your ship.
Therefore. You are wrong :) http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |

Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
437
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 00:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Think that's big ships have to make them good against smaller ships:
Big buffers. Heavy Neuts. Drone bays.
Things they suck at:
Applying Damage. Tackling targets. Escaping traps.
If you bring a battleship to the party, be prepared to lose it. We live in an age where people will blob the living crap out of anything larger than a cruiser. It's boring, but that's what API's, Killboards and statistics will do to a game. Living in Blissful ignorance made people much more willing to put there neck on the line.
As soon as you have a number to judge yourself by, 90% of 'PVPers' will try and max out that statistic instead of looking for a challenge. Most of my friends, myself included, are bored of ganks and would rather lose a good fight than win a pointless one. |

Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
196
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 05:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Battleships in PVP are less common in PVP for a couple reasons.
1, they are expensive. I can fit and fly ~30 merlins for what a single fitted battleship would cost to fly. When you're looking to have fun, it's much more worth it to bring lots of cheap ships than one expensive ship, ESPECIALLY if you're not an ace pilot in said expensive ship. Getting shot down in one fight then having to go back to grinding to repay it is a pain.
2, Weapon systems naturally have more trouble applying damage to smaller classes. Battleships are the biggest subcap, so unless you're fighting other battleships (Or capitals, for that matter), you will have trouble applying damage. This is not to say it can't be done, as a well fit battleship with a good pilot can be truly terrifying, but you have to know what you're doing. Because of the way damage is applied, a frigate can apply it's full damage to a battleship, but the battleship might not be able to hit the frigate at all.
3, Vulnerability. This may seem counter-intuitive because battleships can field such incredible tanks, but battleships make very juicy targets, especially in lowsec, and even more so when they're by themselves. Much like the naval fleets of old, a large ship needs support to truly be effective.
This is not to say that they can't be used. They are beasts in the right circumstances. They will be most effective when flown with support though. A fast and nimble ship that can't keep up with the damage you're dealing can just run off and disengage, or simply get under your tracking and be safe. With big ships, bring someone your target where you want it while you deal the hurt.
Also, remember that you must fit for what you're going to be doing. For a missile ship, fit torps when you're going to be engaging other ships your size and larger at close range, cruise missiles for when you are going to be fighting at sniping distance, and RHMLs when you are going to be fighting smaller ships (This is just a general guideline. There are many situations where these will overlap due to many factors such as enemy fits, ammo type, etc). You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |

Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
400
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 08:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:We live in an age where people will blob the living crap out of anything larger than a cruiser. FYP.
Blob warfare is the most common warfare. People don't like to lose things, people do like to kill things. Easiest way is to stack the deck in your favour.
And as people have already said in this thread: Battleships suck at damage application. The only ones that really do **** to smaller ships are Vindicators. Double 90% webs bring just about anything to a stop, and it's hard for enemies to outrun your tracking when they're at a standstill. You could alternatively try a 2x rigor, 1x flare, 2x painter, Precision Cruise Raven. Your damage would be... well, alright against Cruisers. Could also try a RHML Raven. Also worth noting is that the Raven really isn't great at fitting a heavy buffer tank. Try the Combat Battleships if you want a big buffer. |

0rch1d
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 14:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Do note that if BSes did everything well that Maeltstome listed as a weakness, they'd be overpowered, or at least you'd hear screams to that effect.
In my view, they're *really* good at making MONEY. If you run missions (Lvl 4s), a BS will at some point be your main breadwinner, and will always remain particularly useful for that. Other ships (in the hands of a skilled pilot) might do better in terms of ISK/hour, but rarely - if ever - in a way as low-effort as you'd be able to manage in a BS, particularly with lower skills.
Yes, it's rather odd that they'd be less useful for PVP (though they can still pull that off in the right role) - for a variety of reasons that at least in the world of EVE *do* make sense - but you won't hear a whole lotta complaints when they're pulling in the iskies on the regular. |

Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
400
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 19:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
0rch1d wrote:Do note that if BSes did everything well that Maeltstome listed as a weakness, they'd be overpowered, or at least you'd hear screams to that effect.
In my view, they're *really* good at making MONEY. If you run missions (Lvl 4s), a BS will at some point be your main breadwinner, and will always remain particularly useful for that. Other ships (in the hands of a skilled pilot) might do better in terms of ISK/hour, but rarely - if ever - in a way as low-effort as you'd be able to manage in a BS, particularly with lower skills.
Yes, it's rather odd that they'd be less useful for PVP (though they can still pull that off in the right role) - for a variety of reasons that at least in the world of EVE *do* make sense - but you won't hear a whole lotta complaints when they're pulling in the iskies on the regular.
Except that Battleships aren't bad at PVP, they're just bad when they aren't properly supported. Unfortunately for solo/small gang enthusiasts, to properly support a battleship/group of battleships you're looking at quite a large number of support ships (logi, EWar, painters/webbers/scrammers/general tacklers, bubblers). |

Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
442
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 11:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
I used to hate that BS's could web a frigate to a standstill and then 1-shot it. but we've arrived at a totally different place now.
You can Neut a frig to 0 cap, Scram i t and Web it. It's Orbit will still out-track your guns. At this point a flight of warriors or hammerheads will tear it apart, but any AB frig with a small nos will get out of tackle range.
It's a tough problem to solve. Without making BS the linear endgame of the sub-cap PVP world it's hard to make them more effective against frigs and such.
I will say this though: Battleships can wreck 5+ cruisers in a straight fight. It massively depends on circumstances though, and people with E-War can cause you huge issues. |
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