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Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2014.05.18 23:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Darth Kilth wrote:Shot in the dark, why not give all current nullified ships and modules a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. Even if this only increases allign time by 1 or 2 seconds, it at least creates a situation were you can catch nullified ships without needing 3000+ scan res ships to lock up everything.
Not a bad Idea, adding it to the OP |
gentle hellfire
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
0
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Posted - 2014.05.19 03:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
Habris wrote:Darth Kilth wrote:Shot in the dark, why not give all current nullified ships and modules a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. Even if this only increases allign time by 1 or 2 seconds, it at least creates a situation were you can catch nullified ships without needing 3000+ scan res ships to lock up everything. Not a bad Idea, adding it to the OP
No
That's giving gate campers freebie kills.
Not here to gift wrap your targets for you... |
Darth Kilth
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
176
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Posted - 2014.05.19 06:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
gentle hellfire wrote:Habris wrote:Darth Kilth wrote:Shot in the dark, why not give all current nullified ships and modules a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. Even if this only increases allign time by 1 or 2 seconds, it at least creates a situation were you can catch nullified ships without needing 3000+ scan res ships to lock up everything. Not a bad Idea, adding it to the OP No That's giving gate campers freebie kills. Not here to gift wrap your targets for you... They're not free kills, 1 or maybe 2 seconds extra allign time is still a pretty damn small window to catch anything. If you're not fast enough an cloacky nullified T3 will still be able to escape and you're still going to need a bunch of ships with (remote)sebo's to catch interceptors.
The only difference is that nullified ships now aren't completely immune if people actually want to catch them, they're not free kills, effort still has to be applied. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1385
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Posted - 2014.05.19 06:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
T2 things are relatively cheap and easy to employ once a pilot is trained and has a decent income. Interdiction nullification would be much less viable if a T2 bubble was all it took to stop them.
Howabout a faction anchorable bubble that can stop them, but it's not only expensive but also has a longer anchor time? And then a deadspace variant which stops them without the extra anchor time but is a pretty significant resource sink? That way interdiction nullification would still be pretty successful but it would spice up the danger a bit. It would also give a way to keep ships from running through an area of space if that's really important to you. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2709
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Posted - 2014.05.19 08:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: expensive
To who? A nullsec alliance?
Does it cost more than a titan? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2709
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Posted - 2014.05.19 08:31:00 -
[36] - Quote
Habris wrote:, and to be all but inept killing 1 or 2 (possibly 3 if lucky) ceptors out of a gang of 15+ when my gang is larger and the cost point much higher is unacceptable.
Thank you for bolstering my point. Your ineptitude is what keeps you blind to the fact that you're doing it wrong.
Did any of you ever stop to consider what you could have done to the Inty gang had you been chasing them with 15 Inties and a couple more of those Keres, instead of camping a bubble in a gang of mostly fat, slow shiny **** that has no hope of ever keeping up?
Apparently not.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
117
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Posted - 2014.05.19 08:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
Habris wrote: Again I must point out other than a lucky point or decloak on t3 there is little one can do to catch interdiction nullified ships and that is a problem. Nothing should be able to operate with such impunity.
Why not? Your explanation of "problem" doesn't go into any depth about why it would even be an issue.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
54
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Posted - 2014.05.19 09:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mirthander Kane wrote:A good pilot would still be able to mwd out of such a bubble and warp away (especially if bubble has reduced size), so there are actually some risk to inties aswell - not just the current reward methodology that they enjoy.
Then the camps are bad.
People just don't get out of bubbles with a decent camp. Those that do escape, it's not because they did anything special, it's because the camp screwed up. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1388
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Posted - 2014.05.19 09:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote: expensive To who? A nullsec alliance? Does it cost more than a titan? No, but it costs more than an interceptor, for sure. The best way to set the cost is make them spawn in limited availability. The more popular they are, the more they cost. Just needs to be enough that they are seen around, but few enough that most people aren't using them most of the time. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2014.05.19 10:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Thank you for bolstering my point. Your ineptitude is what keeps you blind to the fact that you're doing it wrong.
Did any of you ever stop to consider what you could have done to the Inty gang had you been chasing them with 15 Inties and a couple more of those Keres, instead of camping a bubble in a gang of mostly fat, slow shiny **** that has no hope of ever keeping up?
Apparently not.
So your answer for interceptors is interceptors, jeez NEVER thought of that. I know it says wildly inappropriate next to my name but a little more credit please. Chasing interceptors with interceptors usually yields results similar to the benny hill show. Also please keep to the topic at hand and less on your perception of "goon ineptitude". Even interceptors have a hard time turning and burning fast enough to get ahead of a target long enough for a scram. Applying interdiction nullification to interceptors was to increase their chance at survival as scout and fleet tackle, not for uncatchable ghost fleets that can penetrate any defense while taking minimal or no loss.
King Fu Hostile wrote:Habris wrote: Again I must point out other than a lucky point or decloak on t3 there is little one can do to catch interdiction nullified ships and that is a problem. Nothing should be able to operate with such impunity.
Why not? Your explanation of "problem" doesn't go into any depth about why it would even be an issue.
It's not necessarily about T3's or interceptors, CCP wants pilots to own space and make it "theirs" but have instituted mechanics that directly contradict that sentiment. Is it so much to ask that if I spend the time and isk to ship into something that can defeat interdiction nullification? You can not tell me that t3's and interceptors are not afforded the luxury of operating in hostile space with relative impunity. The problem is there is no way of countering these ships other than luck of the draw. It's far from a level playing field regardless of how much isk or effort is put into the defense of what you call yours. Have a look at the OP again and tell me exactly what isn't fair about what has been proposed.
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
128
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Posted - 2014.05.19 10:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
Habris wrote:It's not necessarily about T3's or interceptors, CCP wants pilots to own space and make it "theirs" but have instituted mechanics that directly contradict that sentiment. Is it so much to ask that if I spend the time and isk to ship into something that can defeat interdiction nullification? You can not tell me that t3's and interceptors are not afforded the luxury of operating in hostile space with relative impunity. The problem is there is no way of countering these ships other than luck of the draw. It's far from a level playing field regardless of how much isk or effort is put into the defense of what you call yours. Have a look at the OP again and tell me exactly what isn't fair about what has been proposed.
What do you mean "have no counters besides luck"? Ceptors aren't exactly hard to kill (a T1 frig can do that), and nullifying a T3 means giving up a sizeable chunk of it's tank.
They spent time and ISK to ship into something that can negate bubbles, isn't that fair? Anyway, I don't think bubbling a gate is a lot of effort or ISK put into defense like you seem to imply.
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Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
152
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Posted - 2014.05.21 22:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
Habris wrote: I don't care what it takes but hictors should be able to stop interdiction nullification ships. It's an expensive ship that at a bare minimum takes 143 days and about 275-300m isk to field, and if a new script or specialized rig are introduced I can't see the "no" argument holding water.
Perhaps I'm missing some important point here, but HICs already have the means - they can script their bubbles into points of 'infinite' strength, which will stop nullified ships, even ones mounting a lot of warp stabilisers. If a HIC, even with a seeboo and remote seeboos applied can't do the job, a interceptor with such kit should be able to. The means already exist, and if lowsec gate campers can afford t invest the time and energy into these ships and tactics 23/7 just in the hope of netting passersby surely nullsec entities should be able to set up something like it for territory defence.
What I think I'm seeing in this (and other) thread(s) is nullsec folks clamouring for a cheap way for them to 'defend' their (largely empty) space without having to overly exert themselves or cost themselves any time any from their ratting. However, nullsec is supposed to be risky, and it is intended that the only way to reduce that risk is by player action. Tossing up a pile of bubbles and dropping a HIC or three on anyone who works passed them hardly counts. Speaking of bubbles, the anchorable bubbles should, IMO, have a duration of only an hour or two.
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Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:05:00 -
[43] - Quote
why shouldnt people in null have the option to go a few jumps to pick up a skillbook in a ship which cant be caught by the 60 man gatecamp looking for any kill they can get.
bad idea nullsec need ceptors for everyday living |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2673
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
Habris wrote:I ask this openly and propose that they are changed to do so.
Firstly these stats are based on a brand new character training the bare minimum skills to fly the hulls with t2 equipment.
To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.
A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.
Discuss.
Edit: proposals for changing hictors
A new script which imposed further debuffs on the hictor examples: reduced lock range and/or scan res, capacitor debuffs, reduction of bubble size to 15km.
Multiple T2 bubble generators, one to neutralize the interdiction nullification and an additional hictor/dictor to actually bubble.
A specialized T2 electronics rig that would act like a permanent script so that everytime a the non scripted t2 bubble was activated it would be the reduced bubble and what ever debuffs prescribed to catch interdiction nullified ships. I would find acceptable that this would only catch nullified ships, again needing further assets (pilot+training time+ isk) to accomplish the goal at hand.
All current nullified ships and modules are given a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. (credit: Darth Kilth)
If you played Eve before the days of HICs and the nullifiers that came years later.... you wouldn't have posted this at all.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3946
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
I dislike nullified ships....
but I certainly don't believe t2 hictor bubbles should still catch nullified ships.
Once upon a time, back in dominion, CCP accidentally altered the interdiction nullification mechanics. T3 ships with the IN subsystem could warp out of bubbles as they desired, but if they warp to a destination that had an aligned drag / catch bubble, they'd get pulled into the bubble like all other ships. I wish sooooo, soooooo much for this change to happen again, so that all interdiction nullified ships wouldn't be "prevented" from warping out of bubbles, but would absolutely be pulled into them!
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Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
213
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
Habris wrote:I ask this openly and propose that they are changed to do so.
Firstly these stats are based on a brand new character training the bare minimum skills to fly the hulls with t2 equipment.
To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.
A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.
Discuss.
Edit: proposals for changing hictors
A new script which imposed further debuffs on the hictor examples: reduced lock range and/or scan res, capacitor debuffs, reduction of bubble size to 15km.
Multiple T2 bubble generators, one to neutralize the interdiction nullification and an additional hictor/dictor to actually bubble.
A specialized T2 electronics rig that would act like a permanent script so that everytime a the non scripted t2 bubble was activated it would be the reduced bubble and what ever debuffs prescribed to catch interdiction nullified ships. I would find acceptable that this would only catch nullified ships, again needing further assets (pilot+training time+ isk) to accomplish the goal at hand.
All current nullified ships and modules are given a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. (credit: Darth Kilth)
As I've stated previously, interdiction nullifying scripts would only serve to nullify any other functions of a warp disruption bubble. Regardless of debuffs, every hictor doctrine would be updated for exclusively running this script(for obvious reasons). A suggestion like this only serves to make a mechanic misleading and reduce diversity of gameplay.
Instalock gatecamps work in lowsec, why can't they work in null? Oh sorry, that would require nullbears to click more than keep at range and press F1.
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Apelacja
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
70
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Posted - 2014.05.22 16:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
disco bses......adopt or die
EOT
instalock has not 100 % chance and u need 2 ships usualy. That`s what is that wine about. |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
213
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 16:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Apelacja wrote:disco bses......adopt or die
EOT
instalock has not 100 % chance and u need 2 ships usualy. That`s what is that wine about.
True, plus I forgot, this thread is completely invalid. There's a script that already counters interdiction nullification.
My work is done. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2014.05.22 21:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:
If you played Eve before the days of HICs and the nullifiers that came years later.... you wouldn't have posted this at all.
Actually I did, this isn't even my final form. |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
117
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Posted - 2014.05.22 21:54:00 -
[50] - Quote
Oh HAI!
It's someone who's flown a HIC.... |
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Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
214
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Posted - 2014.05.22 22:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Oh HAI! It's someone who's flown a HIC....
Hictors V, grav physics V baby.
Habris wrote:yeah, keep ignoring that interceptors can still align and warp in less than two seconds which is the minimum time needed to lock and point a target. Not accounting for latency of course.
Edumacate, edumacate. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2014.05.22 22:30:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:Bohneik Itohn wrote:Oh HAI! It's someone who's flown a HIC.... Hictors V, grav physics V baby. Habris wrote:yeah, keep ignoring that interceptors can still align and warp in less than two seconds which is the minimum time needed to lock and point a target. Not accounting for latency of course. Edumacate, edumacate.
Cute, but how effective is this against say... 20 interceptors? Catching one or two, but a whole fleet?
And again, thats only possible past on ceptors that can't turn and align in under 2 seconds. You show me how to beat the 1 second minimum time to lock plus the hard coded 1 second required to activate a module and i'll ask to delete this thread. |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
214
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Posted - 2014.05.22 22:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Habris wrote:
Cute, but how effective is this against say... 20 interceptors? Catching one or two, but a whole fleet?.
Why are you using one hictor against a fleet of 20 cepters? |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2014.05.22 22:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:Habris wrote:
Cute, but how effective is this against say... 20 interceptors? Catching one or two, but a whole fleet?.
Why are you using one hictor against a fleet of 20 cepters?
I'm not but I'd damn sure like to. Since all that invades nullsec these days are nullified ships, kinda leaves my hictor mothballed for supers that are obvious traps (daras....*sigh*)
Chasing a ceptor fleet with ceptors is a damn benny hill show, gee thats fun. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
43
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Posted - 2014.05.22 22:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
Habris wrote: To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.
A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.
Discuss.
Following your logic, jump freighter takes longer to get into than an inty and costs more so I should be able to beat an inty witha JF.
Training time and cost is not indicative of it's ability and purpose. |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
121
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 22:49:00 -
[56] - Quote
Habris wrote:Kaerakh wrote:Habris wrote:
Cute, but how effective is this against say... 20 interceptors? Catching one or two, but a whole fleet?.
Why are you using one hictor against a fleet of 20 cepters? I'm not but I'd damn sure like to. Since all that invades nullsec these days are nullified ships, kinda leaves my hictor mothballed for supers that are obvious traps (daras....*sigh*) Chasing a ceptor fleet with ceptors is a damn benny hill show, gee thats fun.
Why chase? Let them get comfortable moving through a pipe and wait for them with a full set of smartbombing, webbing, pointing BS's when they start to head home. Don't be surprised at how predictable their pattern and timing can be. Cover both gates and Mwah! You have a bunch of moths in a bottle. Hope they don't get too close to the flame. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2014.05.22 23:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Habris wrote: To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.
A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.
Discuss.
Following your logic, jump freighter takes longer to get into than an inty and costs more so I should be able to beat an inty witha JF. Training time and cost is not indicative of it's ability and purpose.
While thats an interesting thought it's not applicable and you know it. A jump freighter is a cargo ship, a hictor is a combat ship designed to stop other ships. I don't think implementing either a specialized t2 rig or a new bubble gen that would create a 15km bubble that only stopped nullied ships isn't game breaking.
As far as the smartbombing thing, i've found that result may very and usually they still get away and with the nullification and warp speed are gone with no way to catch them besides chasing them around a region in ceptors. This isn't about trying to create a "e-z-win" mode for nullsec, this is creating a fair way to defend one's space from this abused game mechanic. |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
122
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Posted - 2014.05.22 23:35:00 -
[58] - Quote
Habris wrote:
While thats an interesting thought it's not applicable and you know it. A jump freighter is a cargo ship, a hictor is a combat ship designed to stop other ships. I don't think implementing either a specialized t2 rig or a new bubble gen that would create a 15km bubble that only stopped nullied ships isn't game breaking.
As far as the smartbombing thing, i've found that result may very and usually they still get away and with the nullification and warp speed are gone with no way to catch them besides chasing them around a region in ceptors. This isn't about trying to create a "e-z-win" mode for nullsec, this is creating a fair way to defend one's space from this abused game mechanic.
Your results may vary, but so did theirs when you caught a few of them with the smartbombs.
Besides, what'd you expect to happen? The majority of null territory is owned by Goonswarm, and the majority of players are not members of Goonswarm. Did you want a nice white picket fence to go with your Sov? |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2014.05.22 23:41:00 -
[59] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Habris wrote:
While thats an interesting thought it's not applicable and you know it. A jump freighter is a cargo ship, a hictor is a combat ship designed to stop other ships. I don't think implementing either a specialized t2 rig or a new bubble gen that would create a 15km bubble that only stopped nullied ships isn't game breaking.
As far as the smartbombing thing, i've found that result may very and usually they still get away and with the nullification and warp speed are gone with no way to catch them besides chasing them around a region in ceptors. This isn't about trying to create a "e-z-win" mode for nullsec, this is creating a fair way to defend one's space from this abused game mechanic.
Your results may vary, but so did theirs when you caught a few of them with the smartbombs. Besides, what'd you expect to happen? The majority of null territory is owned by Goonswarm, and the majority of players are not members of Goonswarm. Did you want a nice white picket fence to go with your Sov?
No, but regardless of whether I was in goons or not no ship should be able to infiltrate space with such impunity. The day I can lock in less than two seconds and that very instant apply a scram i'll stop asking for this. Truth be told I don't like hictors, kinda why I have five of them sitting in a my hangar packaged since late 2008 sometime... |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
122
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 23:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Habris wrote:
No, but regardless of whether I was in goons or not no ship should be able to infiltrate space with such impunity. The day I can lock in less than two seconds and that very instant apply a scram i'll stop asking for this. Truth be told I don't like hictors, kinda why I have five of them sitting in a my hangar packaged since late 2008 sometime...
If you have a problem with people entering your space unimpeded you also have a problem with wormholes opening in null sec, cloaks, and basically anyone that plays during your corp's downtime.
It happens. It's not a disadvantage. Learn to use it against people who come to rely on these things and pop them when they get lazy.
If they don't get lazy? Find out where they live and return the favor. |
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