Why don't they?

Because the interdiction-nullifier mechanic is specifically intended as a counter to the area-of-effect warp disruption mechanic. If you want to catch a nullified ship, you need to use a targeted warp jammer - that is the whole point of the mechanic.

Allowing a T2 bubble generator to catch interdiction nullified ships puts a pilot on the field ACTIVELY attempting to engage in combat against targets that are trying to run a blockade. It takes training time and fair amount of isk sunk into one ship to accomplish this, isn't that going by the "risk vs reward" doctrine that CCP attempts to uphold this game to?

If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content.

Trouble is, that training time and ISK isn't being spent 'to beat nullified ships' - a large chunk of it is just the minimum necessary to use bubble generators at all. 'Beating the ship specifically designed to beat you' isn't an appropriate advantage simply for upgrading to the T2 variant. Even a script is questionable - it still boils down to allowing the defender to beat interdiction-nullified ships by doubling-down on the strategy that nullifiers were designed to counter in the first place.

I'm not necessarily opposed to giving people a way to beat interceptors, but doing it with dictors is the wrong way to go about it.

That is a fair point but I mirror the that point in favor for my argument, Why does the training time(less I might add) and isk (which as stated the fits are equally as costly) being spent justify the ability to defeat bubbles of all kinds currently in game simply because its t2/t3?

I understand the interdiction nullification was designed to defeat generalized bubbles, but now there is NOTHING other than a lucky point or decloak + point to counter this mechanic. In my mind this is very much like when cloaks and warp core stabs had no negative affects on combat.

I'll expand on what i'm willing to sacrifice as a pilot in order to be able to defend my space against this broken mechanic.

I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took a special script which imposed further nerfs on the hictor, be it speed, lock range, hp, capacitor debuffs, hell even nerf the bubble size to 15km.

I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took two hictors with t2 generators, one to disrupt the nullification and one to bubble the ship.

I don't find what I am asking to be unreasonable request in order to defend the space I live in and generate content.

If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content. Ceptor fleets are fun to fly in but quite the opposite to defend against because any force put together to defend against them and they just run away. I'm all for hit and run tactics, but this is still pretty broken. Rise looking at you dude...

Typically, specialists get a more powerful payoff than generalists (at their particular specialisation). A HIC pilot has spent their training time and ISK on being able to catch almost any ship in the game; an inty/T3 pilot has spent their time/ISK for, among other things, the ability to specifically counter one ship type: HICs.

The difference between a T1 bubble and a T2 bubble is ~17 days training and ~500k ISK, which I'd say isn't enough to justify being able to catch the ships specifically designed to beat you.


As I said above, I have no inherent objection to giving people a better way to catch nullified ships, I just think that upgraded HIC bubbles - even at the cost of heavy nerfs - isn't the way to do it.

My position is very straight-forward: the counter to a HIC is a nullified ship. The counter to a nullified ship should be something that is not a HIC.

Driving them off is a successful defense of your space is it not?

Then what should it be? I really would like an answer instead of a generalized "No, but yes". I get and could agree the point of T2 generators isk+training time "not being worthy of the ability catch nullied ships", but doesn't change the fact that its a broken mechanic with no real defense against. Hictors should be the answer because A.) the training time is actually about a third longer at the base level than a t3 cruiser and B.) Its an expensive asset, that once a bubble is up is pretty stationary target that has the DPS of a wet pool noodle.

Addendum; I like how you don't classify a Hictor as a specialized ship but do for a T3. My only guess as to this thought process is because you think the subsystems, which is hilarious o.o

About as successful as scaring away a pack of wolves set on killing its prey.

So 100% successful then. If they're gone, they're gone, regardless of what they're set on doing.

I do feel that the upgrade from T1 to T2 isn't much on hictor bubbles..... but getting interdiction nullified vessels? no - not that - and I think the infini-point can already be applied to anything, can't it?

The other solution would be to make it so that you cannot make a T3 that combines warping cloaked with Interdiction Nullification.

As you live in empire and lowsec I don't expect you to understand this at all. Thanks for the bump though....

You're welcome. As you live in nullsec, I don't expect you to understand how to catch ships without using bubbles.

If I'm willing to field over a billion in assets requiring multiple pilots to combat a half billion worth of interceptors, why should my risk v reward be skewed because of a mechanic that currently has counter with a paltry success rate.

I am all for hit and run guerrilla style tactics, but the current state of things is just ridiculous.

I have been in null since the changes. I also live in low, where we don't use bubbles to catch anything at all. Plenty of interceptors die here. Plenty ot T3s die here. Blops die here. Carriers die here. Everything dies here. No bubbles necessary. You have bubbles, and I realize they are a great convenience; they are no longer the jack of all trades of nullsec tackle, and that's very unlikely to change.

The problem is that you're trying to hammer nails with a $500 power drill. You might pound them in one day, but your power drill will look like **** and it will take far longer than using a $20 hammer.

Or, in this case, your own fleet of Interceptors. I appreciate that you spent weeks or months training to use a Hictor. I appreciate that you spent millions buying and fitting the hull, and probably slotting Slaves into your clone. That doesn't change that fact that for what you're wanting to do, it's the wrong tool. An Interceptor can catch a nullified cloaky T3. A gang of them can kill it; at the least they can pin it down until you can drop a cruiser gang on it.

Why don't they?

Because the interdiction-nullifier mechanic is specifically intended as a counter to the area-of-effect warp disruption mechanic. If you want to catch a nullified ship, you need to use a targeted warp jammer - that is the whole point of the mechanic.

Not only this, but the t2 hictor bubbles have massive range. That is what the extra training is for, the increase to range, and that alone, makes it worth it.

The bolded text is where I believe you are fundamentally wrong. Eve is risk v. reward. Currently other than supercap hunting and possibly wanting a bubble that you can dictate there is little to no advantage to having a hictor of a dictor. I know that statement is full of holes and I could argue points and counter points all day, but that is for a different thread. I can appreciate that lots of things die in lowsec, experienced a bit of that in Daras not but a few days ago, but YOU DON'T OWN LOWSEC. Nullsec, specifically Deklein is where I hang my hat, and to be all but inept killing 1 or 2 (possibly 3 if lucky) ceptors out of a gang of 15+ when my gang is larger and the cost point much higher is unacceptable. There needs to be a way to counter interdicition nullifications and I do believe tweaking the hictor is the answer.

edit: and since when is a max res boosted keres a $500.00 power drill?

Came here expecting gewn tears, left satisfied.
Thank you tri.

Shot in the dark, why not give all current nullified ships and modules a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble.
Even if this only increases allign time by 1 or 2 seconds, it at least creates a situation were you can catch nullified ships without needing 3000+ scan res ships to lock up everything.

Not a bad Idea, adding it to the OP

No

That's giving gate campers freebie kills.

Not here to gift wrap your targets for you...

expensive

, and to be all but inept killing 1 or 2 (possibly 3 if lucky) ceptors out of a gang of 15+ when my gang is larger and the cost point much higher is unacceptable.

Again I must point out other than a lucky point or decloak on t3 there is little one can do to catch interdiction nullified ships and that is a problem. Nothing should be able to operate with such impunity.

A good pilot would still be able to mwd out of such a bubble and warp away (especially if bubble has reduced size), so there are actually some risk to inties aswell - not just the current reward methodology that they enjoy.

To who? A nullsec alliance?

Does it cost more than a titan?

Thank you for bolstering my point. Your ineptitude is what keeps you blind to the fact that you're doing it wrong.

Did any of you ever stop to consider what you could have done to the Inty gang had you been chasing them with 15 Inties and a couple more of those Keres, instead of camping a bubble in a gang of mostly fat, slow shiny **** that has no hope of ever keeping up?

Apparently not.

Why not? Your explanation of "problem" doesn't go into any depth about why it would even be an issue.

It's not necessarily about T3's or interceptors, CCP wants pilots to own space and make it "theirs" but have instituted mechanics that directly contradict that sentiment. Is it so much to ask that if I spend the time and isk to ship into something that can defeat interdiction nullification? You can not tell me that t3's and interceptors are not afforded the luxury of operating in hostile space with relative impunity. The problem is there is no way of countering these ships other than luck of the draw. It's far from a level playing field regardless of how much isk or effort is put into the defense of what you call yours. Have a look at the OP again and tell me exactly what isn't fair about what has been proposed.

I don't care what it takes but hictors should be able to stop interdiction nullification ships. It's an expensive ship that at a bare minimum takes 143 days and about 275-300m isk to field, and if a new script or specialized rig are introduced I can't see the "no" argument holding water.

I ask this openly and propose that they are changed to do so.

Firstly these stats are based on a brand new character training the bare minimum skills to fly the hulls with t2 equipment.

To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.

To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.

To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.

A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.

Discuss.

Edit: proposals for changing hictors

A new script which imposed further debuffs on the hictor examples: reduced lock range and/or scan res, capacitor debuffs, reduction of bubble size to 15km.

Multiple T2 bubble generators, one to neutralize the interdiction nullification and an additional hictor/dictor to actually bubble.

A specialized T2 electronics rig that would act like a permanent script so that everytime a the non scripted t2 bubble was activated it would be the reduced bubble and what ever debuffs prescribed to catch interdiction nullified ships. I would find acceptable that this would only catch nullified ships, again needing further assets (pilot+training time+ isk) to accomplish the goal at hand.

All current nullified ships and modules are given a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. (credit: Darth Kilth)

I ask this openly and propose that they are changed to do so.

Firstly these stats are based on a brand new character training the bare minimum skills to fly the hulls with t2 equipment.

To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.

To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.

To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.

A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.

Discuss.

Edit: proposals for changing hictors

A new script which imposed further debuffs on the hictor examples: reduced lock range and/or scan res, capacitor debuffs, reduction of bubble size to 15km.

Multiple T2 bubble generators, one to neutralize the interdiction nullification and an additional hictor/dictor to actually bubble.

A specialized T2 electronics rig that would act like a permanent script so that everytime a the non scripted t2 bubble was activated it would be the reduced bubble and what ever debuffs prescribed to catch interdiction nullified ships. I would find acceptable that this would only catch nullified ships, again needing further assets (pilot+training time+ isk) to accomplish the goal at hand.

All current nullified ships and modules are given a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. (credit: Darth Kilth)

disco bses......adopt or die

EOT


instalock has not 100 % chance and u need 2 ships usualy. That`s what is that wine about.

If you played Eve before the days of HICs and the nullifiers that came years later.... you wouldn't have posted this at all.

True, plus I forgot, this thread is completely invalid. There's a script that already counters interdiction nullification.

My work is done.

Oh HAI!

It's someone who's flown a HIC....

yeah, keep ignoring that interceptors can still align and warp in less than two seconds which is the minimum time needed to lock and point a target. Not accounting for latency of course.

Hictors V, grav physics V baby.



Edumacate, edumacate.

Cute, but how effective is this against say... 20 interceptors? Catching one or two, but a whole fleet?.

Why are you using one hictor against a fleet of 20 cepters?

To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.

To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.

To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.

A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor tank fits it would be more than a fair fight since they are pretty much stationary. All that said hictors aren't solo, they bring friends.

Discuss.

I'm not but I'd damn sure like to. Since all that invades nullsec these days are nullified ships, kinda leaves my hictor mothballed for supers that are obvious traps (daras....*sigh*)

Chasing a ceptor fleet with ceptors is a damn benny hill show, gee thats fun.

Following your logic, jump freighter takes longer to get into than an inty and costs more so I should be able to beat an inty witha JF.

Training time and cost is not indicative of it's ability and purpose.

While thats an interesting thought it's not applicable and you know it. A jump freighter is a cargo ship, a hictor is a combat ship designed to stop other ships. I don't think implementing either a specialized t2 rig or a new bubble gen that would create a 15km bubble that only stopped nullied ships isn't game breaking.


As far as the smartbombing thing, i've found that result may very and usually they still get away and with the nullification and warp speed are gone with no way to catch them besides chasing them around a region in ceptors. This isn't about trying to create a "e-z-win" mode for nullsec, this is creating a fair way to defend one's space from this abused game mechanic.

Your results may vary, but so did theirs when you caught a few of them with the smartbombs.

Besides, what'd you expect to happen? The majority of null territory is owned by Goonswarm, and the majority of players are not members of Goonswarm. Did you want a nice white picket fence to go with your Sov?

No, but regardless of whether I was in goons or not no ship should be able to infiltrate space with such impunity. The day I can lock in less than two seconds and that very instant apply a scram i'll stop asking for this. Truth be told I don't like hictors, kinda why I have five of them sitting in a my hangar packaged since late 2008 sometime...

While thats an interesting thought it's not applicable and you know it. A jump freighter is a cargo ship, a hictor is a combat ship designed to stop other ships. I don't think implementing either a specialized t2 rig or a new bubble gen that would create a 15km bubble that only stopped nullied ships isn't game breaking.

.

If you have a problem with people entering your space unimpeded you also have a problem with wormholes opening in null sec, cloaks, and basically anyone that plays during your corp's downtime.

It happens. It's not a disadvantage. Learn to use it against people who come to rely on these things and pop them when they get lazy.

If they don't get lazy? Find out where they live and return the favor.

Eh, this would make it far too easy to guard a few choice choke systems and prevent any and all infiltration of a nullsec ratting/industry utopia. Wormholes would still allow access, but those can be dealt with.

I would flip the question here and ask if those ships were not interdiction nullified + (cloak or fast align), how could a small roving gang get behind enemy lines and cause havoc? I understand it's annoying that they are nearly impossible to catch, but on the other hand, if a T2 whatever could change that, it would be nearly impossible to break into blue-sec. It's better to let the attacker have at least one advantage, given the defender can have intel, a response fleet, etc.

This would only make blue-sec even more blue and dull. Letting people kill inattentive ratters or miners and keeping a mote of risk in what is supposed to be hazardous space is a good thing. Nullbears are literally worse than hisec miners half the time.

As stated I would LOVE to be able to lock in 1 second and have my pre-activated point enable the instant my lock was established, sadly this isn't the case due to rather crappy programming that is deemed "too time consuming/expensive to fix". That is what I really want. I just want a way for me and 10 of my corp able to engage a fleet of 10-15 interceptors and have an actual chance of kicking their ass. Thats it, a chance. But I expect the sea's to evaporate and the mountains to turn to dust before that issue is addressed and fixed. Hence my request for another mechanic for invader intervention.

A hictor that can throw up a 15km bubble (either with a permanent t2 rig or new mod) that only affects nullified ships doesnt seem breaking, most ceptors would have to burn for about 1 second to escape the bubble or burn back to the gate. Same with t3's , and if its a cloaky t3 it a competent pilot should easily be able to maneuver out of the bubble. Hell I don't care if the bubble only functions as a drag bubble, useless on a gate but rather placed with precision inline with another celestial. There needs to be a counter for interdiction nullification.

your just asking for a counter of a counter because it suits you more, should warp core stabs be removed also?

low dps, hardly any tank, they can still be locked and pointed

Ok, I am going to go out on a limb and say the space you live in isn't 0.0, and thus haven't experienced roving gangs of ceptors which traverse your space with relative impunity. Also this game is big on checks and balances, even with the recent changes its still damn near impossible to catch interceptors and cloaky t3's.

It's amazing how frequently someone says something to the effect of, "Abloobloobloo, X counters Y, but I don't like that! Y should counter X, even though X was intentionally conceived as a hard counter to Y!"

Interdiction nullification is a hard counter to bubbles, by design. You're asking for an uncounterable bubble, while complaining that the counter to bubbles isn't counterable by bubbles. It's inherently stupid.