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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:14:00 -
[31]
The Apoc is not a large fleet damage dealer, the arma is.
The apoc is a small gang/individual tanker/damage dealer and does that job pretty well.
Even taking that into account, please check www.killboard.net and look at what ships are the most used BS for each corp (click the corp icons). That'll give you a generally nice idea of how usefull apocs can be in general combat (stats taken in the last year and a half).
Old blog |
Amerame
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:21:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Stamm
Have you even read anything? Or just glanced.
READ THE ******* THREAD PEOPLE.
You're comparing apple and banana, there's no point.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
The Apoc is not a large fleet damage dealer, the arma is.
The apoc is a small gang/individual tanker/damage dealer and does that job pretty well.
Even taking that into account, please check www.killboard.net and look at what ships are the most used BS for each corp (click the corp icons). That'll give you a generally nice idea of how usefull apocs can be in general combat (stats taken in the last year and a half).
Yes, that is true Rod. I like sticking enough nosses on my Apoc and a good tank so I can outtank the damage I receive, and then (slower than most BSs) chew away on my opponent with pulses. It works well. Pulses make great medium range PvP weapons. They have reasonable tracking (as tracking goes) and they do a bit of a whack, and you can fit them.
However, I'm talking here about ratting and the general use of the Apocalypse for ratting and NPCing.
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BootStrap
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Stamm
Originally by: madaluap
Edited by: madaluap on 31/05/2006 17:00:17
Ok here is my calculation
Megathron using blasters 5 k optimal+8 k falloff
megathron using megapulse 20 k optimal +whateverfalloff
as you can see @ 25 k range blasters dont hit for ****, they need a damageincrease and fast
btw i put a lot of work into these calculations..
Some guns have more or less optimal, DONT feck around with that, AM charge = MULTISPEC @ the same lvl, dont ghrow that around...
You're comparing short range guns to long range guns.
I'm comparing long range guns to long range guns.
um.. Mega pulse and blasters are both short range weapons.
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BootStrap
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:30:00 -
[35]
Edited by: BootStrap on 31/05/2006 17:32:23
Originally by: Stamm
Originally by: Amerame
So in one very particular situation, the rails do arguably slightly better, but still it's completely stupid to compare the damage done on a gurista rat which tank laser best versus rails that are the least tanked by the same rat, that's brilliant you noticed that you'd do better with a megathron than with an apoc vs guristas, great point you really did not had to compute all those numbers, now maybe I should complain that I can't fit tachyon on my megathron when i'm hunting blood & sansha rats. Even though the rail could do slightly better in theory, as far as ratting is concerned the fact that you don't need ammo overweight whatever slight damage increase.
Have you even read anything? Or just glanced.
READ THE ******* THREAD PEOPLE.
I spent a great deal of time producing these figures as impartially as I could. Yet people see one ******* word, pick up on it and post a load of ****e.
In your original post you said that you used the current skillset from your character but didn't say what level the relevant skills are at. It may have been beter to calculate with either max skills or no skills.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:31:00 -
[36]
Your laser setup, to be honest, sucks.
You're comparing 8 of the biggest rail to 8 mid-to-low-end lasers.
Considering that its very easy to fit 8 megabeams on an apoc, such a comparison is not fair.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:32:00 -
[37]
It's okay if you want to put railguns on your Apocalypse.
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Stamm
LASERS DO LESS DAMAGE THAN 425MM BECAUSE THEY HAVE LESS RANGE AND YOU HAVE TO DROP A DAMAGE MOD FOR A FITTING MOD, OR USE LOWER DAMAGE LASERS BEFORE YOU EVEN LOOK AT FACTION RESISTS.
You complain about others not reading your post but do not read mine either.
Rails do NOT do more raw damage unless you really want them to.
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Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
It's okay if you want to put railguns on your Apocalypse.
Translation: WTS clue
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:35:00 -
[40]
my number crunching:
megabeam( modulated) base damage: 0.4
425mm proto: 0,345
Those above are normalized
So with maxed skills, normalized :
megabeam: 0.7666
425mm: 0.661
So with am ammo + 425 = 31.74
With gamma + megabeam = 33.7
So what exactly did you do wrong? Also you can fit everything you wrote with only 1 rcu II and awu 4.
Die, die, die. |
turnschuh
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:40:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
It's okay if you want to put railguns on your Apocalypse.
LIES!
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:40:00 -
[42]
Stamm:
The problem everyone has with your post is that you left out a very important limiting factor.
What you should have said was: Rail do more damage AT A VERY SPECIFIC FIXED RANGE.
If you had made it clear then people would have agreed with you. Of course they would still shrug it off and say "who cares?" and "what's your point?" but at least they'd be able to agree with the original numbers.
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Ather Ialeas
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
It's okay if you want to put railguns on your Apocalypse.
Sure it's okay but what are we going to do with our lasers and the several million sp:s worth of laser specialization? You wanna shift those to hybrid/projectile weaponry for us?
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My signature exploded :/ |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Originally by: CCP Hammer
It's okay if you want to put railguns on your Apocalypse.
Sure it's okay but what are we going to do with our lasers and the several million sp:s worth of laser specialization? You wanna shift those to hybrid/projectile weaponry for us?
HE WAS SAYING THAT LASERS ARE OK
and that the guy posting is probably a noob
he is saying you do what u want to do becase you havent given us a proper argument
lasers do more dmg than hybrids, if hes compairing lasers to rats with high em resistance what do u expect!
if there was a rat with 99% kin and 99% thermal resistance then id go shoot it with a railgun and a beam laser and ***** that hybrids need a 200000% dmg incrase to be on par with lasers
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:54:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Your laser setup, to be honest, sucks.
You're comparing 8 of the biggest rail to 8 mid-to-low-end lasers.
Considering that its very easy to fit 8 megabeams on an apoc, such a comparison is not fair.
While having an optimal range of 30-35KM and maintaining my tank I cannot come up with a better setup for lasers than the one I have posted here. If you come up with one, then please post it, and I'll use it. I am not going to train for railguns, the difference between lasers and railguns does not warrant it.
I'm comparing the lasers that will fit on the Apoc with the railguns that will fit on the Apoc.
Try maintaining the tank and running Tachyons, you will do even less damage.
It just isn't easy to fit 8 megabeams on an Apoc, assuming you're going to fit an armour repper (and please can we all agree that for nearly everything an Apoc does it'll need a battleship sized armour repairer?)
Tech 1 base Megabeams, large armour repper I, with Engineering level 4 - 2 RCU I.
Tech 1 best named Megabeams, accom armor repper I, with Engineering level 5 - 1 RCU 1, 1 PDU.
Tech 2 Megabeams with Engineering level 5 and Advanced Weapon Upgrades level 4 - 1 RCU II, 1 PDU.
That isn't easy to fit.
And that's why the railguns put out more damage.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:56:00 -
[46]
rofl setups
past 200km, the railgun amarr ships damage the tachyon amarr ships due to the increased range of railguns. close than that and tachs work as expected. 3 damage mods and 2 tracking mods a piece.
boo ******* hoo.
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Buraken v2
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:58:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Stamm
Originally by: Amerame
So in one very particular situation, the rails do arguably slightly better, but still it's completely stupid to compare the damage done on a gurista rat which tank laser best versus rails that are the least tanked by the same rat, that's brilliant you noticed that you'd do better with a megathron than with an apoc vs guristas, great point you really did not had to compute all those numbers, now maybe I should complain that I can't fit tachyon on my megathron when i'm hunting blood & sansha rats. Even though the rail could do slightly better in theory, as far as ratting is concerned the fact that you don't need ammo overweight whatever slight damage increase.
Have you even read anything? Or just glanced.
READ THE ******* THREAD PEOPLE.
I spent a great deal of time producing these figures as impartially as I could. Yet people see one ******* word, pick up on it and post a load of ****e.
Yes I am ranting now. But I'm fed up with people posting ****e that has no basis, because they are too ******* lazy to read a thread.
LASERS DO LESS DAMAGE THAN 425MM BECAUSE THEY HAVE LESS RANGE AND YOU HAVE TO DROP A DAMAGE MOD FOR A FITTING MOD, OR USE LOWER DAMAGE LASERS BEFORE YOU EVEN LOOK AT FACTION RESISTS.
Now I am sorry for the caps folks, but hopefully people will read those and not just pick a word from a post, make up the rest of what I said in their head and flame that.
Haha roid rage :D
Originally by: Mang0o
200m sexy ill bid on yours becouse you are so cute
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Originally by: CCP Hammer
It's okay if you want to put railguns on your Apocalypse.
Sure it's okay but what are we going to do with our lasers and the several million sp:s worth of laser specialization? You wanna shift those to hybrid/projectile weaponry for us?
HE WAS SAYING THAT LASERS ARE OK
and that the guy posting is probably a noob
he is saying you do what u want to do becase you havent given us a proper argument
lasers do more dmg than hybrids, if hes compairing lasers to rats with high em resistance what do u expect!
if there was a rat with 99% kin and 99% thermal resistance then id go shoot it with a railgun and a beam laser and ***** that hybrids need a 200000% dmg incrase to be on par with lasers
The problem is that a couple of people didn't read the post, saw the word Guristas and picked up on that.
THE RAILGUNS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT'S GURISTAS.
THE RAILGUNS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT'S GURISTAS.
THE RAILGUNS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT'S GURISTAS.
THE RAILGUNS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT'S GURISTAS.
THE RAILGUNS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT'S GURISTAS.
READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU CALL ME A NOOB.
How many times do I need to repeat that before people actually realise it?
There are a great number of people on these forums who are simply out there to score points by getting one up on someone, flaming their posts.
I spent a great deal of time trying to get an optimal setup for ratting in an Apoc and found that railguns were better. I then spent a great deal of time making a post with as much information as I could.
Some people with nothing better to do with their time than have a go at people on the forums see the word Guristas, and before you know it, despite the first post stating the exact opposite, Railguns now apparently only do more damage if you are fighting Guristas.
Wrong, they do more damage on an Apoc because with railguns you can fit a tank, no fitting mods, and multiple damage mods. With lasers you can fit a tank, fitting mods and 1 or 2 at most damage mods. Either that or with the lasers you have to drop down to lower damage lasers (which turns out to do more DPS than fitting mods).
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Buraken v2
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:04:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Buraken v2 on 31/05/2006 18:04:55
So basicly what you are saying is if you are hunting say... guristas, then using Rails on a Apoc is better then pulses?
I am sorry if I understood that wrong, just confused by everyones posts 
Originally by: Mang0o
200m sexy ill bid on yours becouse you are so cute
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:05:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Buraken v2
Haha roid rage :D
Haha. ****er.
Ok it's like this folks.
I can either spend time researching something and post my results for you guys to read through, question, and comment, disagreing is fine.
Or I can spend time researching something and post my results for you guys to read. And then a bunch of frustrated forum warriors latch on to things that aren't even in the post and start a flamefest. Oh wait, I won't waste my time.
Make what you will of it people, but I'm running out of patience here fast.
(Sure go ahead and post that you don't care, it'll be really really funny)
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Buraken v2
Edited by: Buraken v2 on 31/05/2006 18:04:55
So basicly what you are saying is if you are hunting say... guristas, then using Rails on a Apoc is better then pulses?
I am sorry if I understood that wrong, just confused by everyones posts
You are a comedy genius the like of which has never been seen hefore.
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Amerame
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:07:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Stamm
.
THE RAILGUNS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT'S GURISTAS.
READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU CALL ME A NOOB.
How many times do I need to repeat that before people actually realise it?
Repeating it till your face turn red won't make it any more real.
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BootStrap
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:08:00 -
[53]
Edited by: BootStrap on 31/05/2006 18:16:10
With Large Turret 5, Surgical Strike 5 and Rapid Firing 5 (these should be the only skills that will affect the damage);
8 425mm Protos will do ~220 raw DPS with antimatter
3 dual modulated heavy/5 mega modulated beams will do ~240 raw DPS with multis and ~220 with gammas
8 mega modulated beams will do 256 raw DPS with multis and ~234 with gammas
I haven't included the damage mods because I couldn't remember the stacking penalty figures, however the 8 425 and 3 dual/5 mega setups you posted both had 3 damage mods so the relative positions should be un-affected.
EDIT: Also, your original post stated:
Originally by: Stamm
The fits are seeking a range of 30-35KM
With sharpshooter 5 and antimatter, the 425mm protos have an optimal of 36.25km, while the mega beams have an optimal of 30km with multis and 37.5km with gammas.
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Buraken v2
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Stamm
Originally by: Buraken v2
Edited by: Buraken v2 on 31/05/2006 18:04:55
So basicly what you are saying is if you are hunting say... guristas, then using Rails on a Apoc is better then pulses?
I am sorry if I understood that wrong, just confused by everyones posts
You are a comedy genius the like of which has never been seen hefore.
I wasnt joking... but I will read the entire thread again so I will understand better. Sorry
Originally by: Mang0o
200m sexy ill bid on yours becouse you are so cute
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:12:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Stamm
There are a great number of people on these forums who are simply out there to score points by getting one up on someone, flaming their posts.
I spent a great deal of time trying to get an optimal setup for ratting in an Apoc and found that railguns were better. I then spent a great deal of time making a post with as much information as I could.
SO u telling us that 425mm rail have different range than laser? how come ? 
ever though there was only one kind of weapon with same dmg same range and same fitting so laser are different from hybrid and u prefer long range?....
Originally by: Stamm
Some people with nothing better to do with their time than have a go at people on the forums see the word Guristas, and before you know it, despite the first post stating the exact opposite, Railguns now apparently only do more damage if you are fighting Guristas.
Wrong, they do more damage on an Apoc because with railguns you can fit a tank, no fitting mods, and multiple damage mods. With lasers you can fit a tank, fitting mods and 1 or 2 at most damage mods. Either that or with the lasers you have to drop down to lower damage lasers (which turns out to do more DPS than fitting mods).
U guy never tryed to fit a megatron dont ya?
For evrything u want u need to give up something else thats all u want awsome dmg leave out the idea of tanking... U want Better tank leave out good dmg...
Only ship able to do both is raven...
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Toaster Oven
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:15:00 -
[56]
Reaons why your argument fails:
1. Your argument is ultra specific to one situation and one setup. And PVE balance is secondary in importance to PVP
2. Um, majority of people use TII equipment. So try coming up with fittings that don't cost half a billion isk when talking about balance
3. 8x 425mm II uses 114 more CPU than 8x Mega Beam II with Weapons Upgrade 5. I cannot think of a single PVP setup on my Apoc using Mega Beams that has a spare 114 CPU
4. Mega Beam II has 59% better tracking than 425mm II. That more than makes up for the dmg difference. Especially when you start factoring in TII ammo penalties.
5. TBH this thread was destined for failure after Hammer's post 
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:19:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Stamm on 31/05/2006 18:20:21
Originally by: BootStrap
With Large Turret 5, Surgical Strike 5 and Rapid Firing 5 (these should be the only skills that will affect the damage);
8 425mm Protos will do ~220 raw DPS with antimatter
3 dual modulated heavy/5 mega modulated beams will do ~240 raw DPS with multis and ~220 with gammas
8 mega modulated beams will do 256 raw DPS with multis and ~234 with gammas
I haven't included the damage mods because I couldn't remember the stacking penalty figures, however the 8 425 and 3 dual/5 mega setups you posted both had 3 damage mods so the relative positions should be un-affected.
Thanks for a reasonable reply :)
Taking your figures then...
We have to discard the 8 megas since they can't be fitted with 3 damage mods and a tank.
We then have to look at the approx 220 damage from railguns and the approx 220 damage from lasers.
They come out exactly the same.
Sure the multifrequency does more damage, but it's too short range.
Tracking isn't much of an issue, just get up speed transversal will be low enough that it doesn't matter. (The BS will either follow you, or run away from you). I don't know if Angel rats would be fast enough that they'd create some transversal as they'd be able to orbit very slowly, but they wouldn't be able to create enough for tracking to matter.
Assuming that my figures are incorrect, and your rough figures are correct, then it's just as good for the Apoc to fit lasers as it is to fit railguns. Little less tracking with the rails, more maximum range, If you had to fight a mix of rats, and could only pick one damage combination it'd be kin/therm and not em/therm. In certain circumstances the lasers could be better, in most it'd be the railguns. And you don't have to bother with ammo for lasers.
But what it comes down to is that if you take lasers away from Apocalypses, they are not weaker.
Edit : Yeah the ranges are with this characters skills.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Toaster Oven
Reaons why your argument fails:
1. Your argument is ultra specific to one situation and one setup. And PVE balance is secondary in importance to PVP
2. Um, majority of people use TII equipment. So try coming up with fittings that don't cost half a billion isk when talking about balance
3. 8x 425mm II uses 114 more CPU than 8x Mega Beam II with Weapons Upgrade 5. I cannot think of a single PVP setup on my Apoc using Mega Beams that has a spare 114 CPU
4. Mega Beam II has 59% better tracking than 425mm II. That more than makes up for the dmg difference. Especially when you start factoring in TII ammo penalties.
5. TBH this thread was destined for failure after Hammer's post
1) It's not even remotely ultra specific. It's about fighting NPCs with beam lasers or railguns in an apocalypse. I'm sick to death of the guristas thing.
2) You can replace the armour repper and 1 damage mod with a T2 armour repper and an extra hardener. You can use T2 hardeners instead of faction. Exactly the same results. As for T2 large lasers? It takes well in excess of 100 days to train for them. Named lasers are hardly insignificant :P
3) I'm not talking about PvP.
4) Again I'm not talking about T2 lasers. And I'm certainly not talking about T2 ammo. It's PvP only more or less, and it's so heavily penalised I don't think I'd use it in PvE either.
5) Frankly I don't care about Hammers post. If he wants to chip in and have a go at me fine, it's just one more person doing so. I'd wager a massive amount of money that he didn't read the original post.
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:42:00 -
[59]
1) As far as I can tell, better tracking DOES increase hit quality and thus damage done. If not, please point me to the tracking experiment thread that says otherwise. So Lasers+MF makes up for its lack of range with tracking.
2) You CAN fit 7 Mega + 1 Heavy with no fitting mod and the same tank as the 425 setup. And this DOES more raw damage than the rail one even with Gammas (I said that already but it was ignored...)
3) 33120 opt range for rails vs. 27600 for Mega lasers on MF is 20% more optimal.
0.011 tracking on the rails vs. 0.018 on the Mega laser is 64% more tracking.
So ' Little less tracking with the rails, more maximum range' is not exactly accurate imho.
The only thing that makes rails better in some cases is the rat resitances being too high on EM in most cases.
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Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Menishtle
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:50:00 -
[60]
I think what you've shown is that Hybrid and Laser weapon damage is very similar. Since you want to limit to NPC only, lets talk about that.
1) Guristas are the main "at range" NPC, so it's somewhat disingenious to claim a long-range Battleship ratting setup isn't about Guristas. But I'll let this point 1 go and move on to -
1) Rails eat ammo, Lasers don't. Want to rat for awhile? Not needing ammo is great!
2) Rails need lots of cargo space and 10 seconds to change optimal range. Lasers don't. We all know that warp in in belts on the rats is random.
3) Rails eat CPU. A 3x damage mod Railpoc is not going to have much leeway at all for fitting any type of anti-player defenses. A moderately skilled player will have a hard time even fitting a 3x damagemod 8x 425mm railgun Apoc without using a co-proc fitting mod.
4) Ammo. Cargo Space. Loot.
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