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HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:07:00 - [1] I've been thinking about this a bit recently, and I just wondered what everyone else thought. All the races have 2 assault type t1 cruisers, making the basis for their HACs. These are: Omen Maller Vexor Thorax Caracal Moa Stabber Rupture I was thinking: these ships show the 2 main feature of their race's ideas. They are both used as a basis for HACs which are balanced to be evenly matched (unlike AFs). Yet one of these is tier3, the other is tier2. Looking at it, I think maybe it might work with both as tier3s. Along with a respective fitting boost, I'd add: A Highslot and turret to the Omen A Medslot to the Vexor A Lowslot to the Caracal A Lowslot to the Stabber What do you think? Would **** it up, or improve things?
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:09:00 - [2] You would remove any point of using Arbitrator (4 mids compared to 3 of vexor but less pg/armor etc). Also Omen still would need to get PG boost (it barely can fit atm).
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Meridius Good ideas, i like The only thing that bothers me is the Vexor, it already outclasses the Arbitrator in pretty much everyway except for having 1 less mid. I think it should stay that way tbh... You post too ******* fast. And yeah, agreed. === God is on the side with the best arti
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:10:00 - [4] Originally by: HippoKing A Highslot and turret to the Omen A Medslot to the Vexor A Lowslot to the Caracal A Lowslot to the Stabber What do you think? Would **** it up, or improve things? The Omen would then have more dps than a zealot by the order of 1 launcher point and a 15m3 drone bay. The midslot to the vexor will allow it to use even more ewar than it does now. I don't see much of a problem with the low-slot on the cara, other than it lets it tank and ewar a little easier. The stabber might be able to run some form of tank with an extra low, although personally I would like an extra mid.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:10:00 - [5] Good ideas, i like The only thing that bothers me is the Vexor, it already outclasses the Arbitrator in pretty much everyway except for having 1 less mid. I think it should stay that way tbh... - _____
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:11:00 - [6] I say boost the belicose... Arbitrator, Blackbird, and Celestis are great ships. Belicose is poo poo.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Meridius Good ideas, i like The only thing that bothers me is the Vexor, it already outclasses the Arbitrator in pretty much everyway except for having 1 less mid. I think it should stay that way tbh... Thats a good point I hadn't considered. I originally gave it another low, but I wanted to differentiate it more from the thorax. Personally, I might consider changing the arbitrator in this case though: maybe lose a high for a mid?
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Sarmaul The Omen would then have more dps than a zealot by the order of 1 launcher point and a 15m3 drone bay. The omen is currently hurting a lot: it is currently pretty much totally inferior to the maller. I hadn't considered it outdamaging the zealot, and that is an issue. I'll think on that. Originally by: Sarmaul The midslot to the vexor will allow it to use even more ewar than it does now. I know Originally by: Sarmaul I don't see much of a problem with the low-slot on the cara, other than it lets it tank and ewar a little easier. It does indeed, but it gives a choice between armor tanking or damage or WCS. Fitting would be tight on the extra low I think. Originally by: Sarmaul The stabber might be able to run some form of tank with an extra low, although personally I would like an extra mid. This was another one I was unsure about. In the end I decided on the extra low because that is the direction the navy stabber went in, and it looks pretty good there.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Phelan Lore I say boost the belicose... Arbitrator, Blackbird, and Celestis are great ships. Belicose is poo poo. Arbi isn't amazing, nor is the celestis really. Blackbird is awesome and bellicose sucks. Yeah, it needs a look.
Skva	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:26:00 - [10] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Phelan Lore I say boost the belicose... Arbitrator, Blackbird, and Celestis are great ships. Belicose is poo poo. Arbi isn't amazing, nor is the celestis really. Blackbird is awesome and bellicose sucks. Yeah, it needs a look. I personally like the celestis, sensor damps can be very fun in gang PvP. It's not as uber as the blackbird though. No experience flying the other two, so not going to comment on those :P Your signature is too large! Please resize it according to the forum guidelines. Jacques Archambault
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Sarmaul The Omen would then have more dps than a zealot by the order of 1 launcher point and a 15m3 drone bay. The Zealot needs a 5th turret badly. - _____
Kunming	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul The Omen would then have more dps than a zealot by the order of 1 launcher point and a 15m3 drone bay. The Zealot needs a 5th turret badly. No it needs a small drone bay imo, 25m¦ or so. Thats enough for 5 lights, or 1 webber drone or other funky stuff, would make the ship a bit more vestile.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:44:00 - [13] Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 22:44:44 Originally by: Kunming No it needs a small drone bay imo, 25m¦ or so. Thats enough for 5 lights, or 1 webber drone or other funky stuff, would make the ship a bit more vestile. Wrong, it needs a 5th turret. It's an Amarrian ship, you know, king of the turrets race? Yet it has less turrets then Minmatar HAC's. It's damage output with high damage tech 2 ammo matches a Vagabond with t2 range AC ammo. 5 light drones isn't going to do ****. - _____
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul The Omen would then have more dps than a zealot by the order of 1 launcher point and a 15m3 drone bay. The Zealot needs a 5th turret badly. Only if my muninn gets a 6th, deal? : D
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd Only if my muninn gets a 6th, deal? : D Sorry wrong race, Amarr are the turret *****s of eve. - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 22:44:44 Originally by: Kunming No it needs a small drone bay imo, 25m¦ or so. Thats enough for 5 lights, or 1 webber drone or other funky stuff, would make the ship a bit more vestile. Wrong, it needs a 5th turret. It's an Amarrian ship, you know, king of the turrets race? Yet it has less turrets then Minmatar HAC's. It's damage output with high damage tech 2 ammo matches a Vagabond with t2 range AC ammo. 5 light drones isn't going to do ****. zealot with heavy pulse, conflag and 3 hs = 498dps vaga with 425mm ac, barrage, heavy launcher + 5 drones = 466dps of course, vaga with hail = 601dps, but that's assuming you can actually get into range
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:05:00 - [17] Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 23:10:49 Originally by: Sarmaul zealot with heavy pulse, conflag and 3 hs = 498dps vaga with 425mm ac, barrage, heavy launcher + 5 drones = 466dps of course, vaga with hail = 601dps, but that's assuming you can actually get into range My graph looks different, hold on, its otw. Also don't forget we are comparing our cap sucking high damage tech 2 ammo to your long range penalty free zero cap using guns. Your guns also don't get uber gimped by TDs and you have missiles and drones which adds even more flexibilty... graphs ftw - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:11:00 - [18] Edited by: Sarmaul on 05/06/2006 23:12:50 my graph edit: what version of nb's graph are you using? I'm using beta12...
Gierling	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:13:00 - [19] I just say we scrap the tier system entirely. Its stupid and redundant. Click Me And Me
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Sarmaul my graph You used Acolyte's which do the worst dmg of light drones - _____
Imode	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:14:00 - [21] Give the omen a grid boost so that it can actually fit heavy pulses. :) ____________________________ Signature file size to large, please keep it under 24000 bytes - Petwraith How's this? -imo
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:14:00 - [22] Edited by: Sarmaul on 05/06/2006 23:15:16 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul my graph You used Acolyte's which do the worst dmg of light drones wtf which are the best then? edit: nm, just realised I got acos and hobs mixed up. 2 secs ;)
Quarantine	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:15:00 - [23] Originally by: HippoKing A Highslot and turret to the Omen A Medslot to the Vexor A Lowslot to the Caracal A Lowslot to the Stabber Omen and Stabber could do with a slight boost, but Caracal and Vexor are fine as it is. I'd actually give both the Omen and the Stabber a fifth turret slot (and the additional highslot for the omen, but no additional low for the Stabber). Additionally, the Bellicose desperately needs some love.
Cohkka	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:15:00 - [24] I agree Omen needs a boost. In particular more damage as suggested with the 5th turretslot. I'd gladly expand the 5th hi-slot for another med or low-slot. Tho, I think it's more in line with the Dominix if it would get another low-slot. Med-slot would be better ofc... Caracal, agree again. Haven't flown it for a while but the 2 lows were a pain in the ass. I think the Stabber should get another med-slot rather than a low. Then it could maybe fit somewhat of a tank (as a ship with low pg). Again I haven't flown it for a long time, but basicly it was a pain to fit. I only used it as a fast tackler. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:17:00 - [25] Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 23:17:50 Originally by: Sarmaul wtf which are the best then? edit: nm, just realised I got acos and hobs mixed up. 2 secs ;) Across all drones from best to worst (dmg wise) Therm Kin Explosive EM - _____
Frools	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:19:00 - [26] Originally by: HippoKing A Highslot and turret to the Omen :drool: if it got the grid to properly fit the new slot too that would make me happy in the pants dont see it happenning tho, so i would be content with just the grid to fit its current slots properly
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:19:00 - [27] I dont really know about other ships much but /signed for Caracal with 1 more low slot. Moa: 1 low slot to middle. Make Moa 6/5/3? Blackbird: 1 high slot to low. Make BB 3/6/3? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Originally by: Jenny Spitfire EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 23:17:50 Originally by: Sarmaul wtf which are the best then? edit: nm, just realised I got acos and hobs mixed up. 2 secs ;) Across all drones from best to worst (dmg wise) Therm Kin Explosive EM I know, I just forgot which ones did thermal :). hacking the spreadsheet, giving a zealot a 5th turret would actually completely balance out with the vaga. vaga vs zealot with 5 turrets
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Sarmaul I know, I just forgot which ones did thermal :). hacking the spreadsheet, giving a zealot a 5th turret would actually completely balance out with the vaga. vaga vs zealot with 5 turrets Yes that graph looks how it should be!! They can unnerf Hail then to - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul I know, I just forgot which ones did thermal :). hacking the spreadsheet, giving a zealot a 5th turret would actually completely balance out with the vaga. vaga vs zealot with 5 turrets Yes that graph looks how it should be!! They can unnerf Hail then to My god, we actually agree on boosting each other's race . Next think you know, Gronsak will be typing clearly, Kilrock will be helping to setup people's faction ships and Jenny won't be using stabs and ewar... naaaah
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:28:00 - [31] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul I know, I just forgot which ones did thermal :). hacking the spreadsheet, giving a zealot a 5th turret would actually completely balance out with the vaga. vaga vs zealot with 5 turrets Yes that graph looks how it should be!! They can unnerf Hail then to My god, we actually agree on boosting each other's race . Next think you know, Gronsak will be typing clearly, Kilrock will be helping to setup people's faction ships and Jenny won't be using stabs and ewar... naaaah Read the bottom of this post que evil laughter - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Meridius Read the bottom of this post que evil laughter Bastard!!!! Originally by: Kaylana Syi After she whines about arties so my tempest get boost first. She? SHE?
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Sarmaul naaaah NB.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kaylana Syi After she whines about arties so my tempest get boost first. She? SHE? Thats just shameful That would never happen on team Amarr, we would refer to you as he or man slave - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:36:00 - [35] I would prefer He-Man, but Man-Slave will have to do. And my parting note before I try and sleep off this hangover: Boost Amarr! (as long as it doesn't involve explosive crystals)
Krulla	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Meridius Graph I'm sure you know you're using battleship guns on the Gallente HACs, right? Tarkin > Omfg, frigs are such bs. Red 5 > lolol, lern 2 play plz noob SIG HIJACK!!11 RAWRR!!1- IMMY
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 23:17:50 Originally by: Sarmaul wtf which are the best then? edit: nm, just realised I got acos and hobs mixed up. 2 secs ;) Across all drones from best to worst (dmg wise) Therm Kin Explosive EM Actually th > exp > kin > em At least for heavys. --------- Dead already?
Cohkka	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:42:00 - [38] That thread is quite funny, tbh. Yay for uber Ishtar... Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:46:00 - [39] Edited by: Meridius on 06/06/2006 00:01:24 Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Meridius Graph I'm sure you know you're using battleship guns on the Gallente HACs, right? rofl, gimme a minute Graph corrected. I actually had the Deimos one using large ions as well The Deimos is now up there with the Ishtar - _____
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.05 23:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Cohkka That thread is quite funny, tbh. Yay for uber Ishtar... Krulla's right, Meridius mixed up battleship and cruiser guns. Someone forgot an error check somewhere NB.
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2006.06.06 00:00:00 - [41] Originally by: HippoKing A Lowslot to the Stabber Well thats the thing I wondered since I started flying the ship. Currently it doesn`t follow the red line shown in the Vaga and Fleet Issue, which both have 5 lows. A fourth low for the Stabber would make much more sence then a extra mid, cause the other two have 4 mids. I`d say signed for this. Though it aint gonna happen I think
Farjung	Posted - 2006.06.06 00:08:00 - [42] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 23:17:50 Originally by: Sarmaul wtf which are the best then? edit: nm, just realised I got acos and hobs mixed up. 2 secs ;) Across all drones from best to worst (dmg wise) Therm Kin Explosive EM Actually th > exp > kin > em At least for heavys. Liar. (Ogre I 1.6, Wasp I 1.45, Berserker I 1.3, Praetor I 1.15) --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Sadist	Posted - 2006.06.06 00:08:00 - [43] That graph shows about _**_ information about how ships behave in real situations and arent even a remote reason for boosting any ship --------------- VIP member of the [23] Quote:** - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.06 00:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Sadist That graph shows about _****_ information about how ships behave in real situations and arent even a remote reason for boosting any ship Thank you for contributing nothing. - _____
Cohkka	Posted - 2006.06.06 00:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Sadist That graph shows about _****_ information about how ships behave in real situations and arent even a remote reason for boosting any ship Yeah, let's just screw maths and open up another "Boost the Raven" thread. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Quarantine	Posted - 2006.06.06 01:01:00 - [46] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sadist That graph shows about _****_ information about how ships behave in real situations and arent even a remote reason for boosting any ship Thank you for contributing nothing. He has a point though, because it has nothing to do with T1 cruisers at all. Apart from that, Zealot boost
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 07:00:00 - [47] Its interesting that the change I saw as the most obvious (omen is the worst tier2 assault by a long stretch) is the one which has been most heavily debated. I think it wouldn't cause too many problems as long as the fitting was very very tight, and it couldn't fit near the same setups as the zealot.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.06 07:07:00 - [48] Originally by: HippoKing I've been thinking about this a bit recently, and I just wondered what everyone else thought. All the races have 2 assault type t1 cruisers, making the basis for their HACs. These are: Omen Maller Vexor Thorax Caracal Moa Stabber Rupture I was thinking: these ships show the 2 main feature of their race's ideas. They are both used as a basis for HACs which are balanced to be evenly matched (unlike AFs). Yet one of these is tier3, the other is tier2. Looking at it, I think maybe it might work with both as tier3s. Along with a respective fitting boost, I'd add: A Highslot and turret to the Omen A Medslot to the Vexor A Lowslot to the Caracal A Lowslot to the Stabber What do you think? Would **** it up, or improve things? I kind of agree that some of the lower tier cruisers need a boost. However, for some races, its the higher tier ones that need a boost (with pvp in mind), not the lower ones. The Omen already does great DPS and is a viable PvP choice. The Omen is really not, it needs to do something other than tank like a beast. The Vexor and Thorax are both already awesome PvP ships. The Caracal is already awesome in PvP; it's the Moa that needs to be better. Although as usual, the problem here is missile-gun balance, not anything else. The Stabber has a good role as a heavy fleet tackler, although it is lacking in fitting. Really, to fit anything in its highs that's decent it always ends up with 2 nanos in lows. Testy's Eve Blog, Updated 01/06/06 Buying: +5 implants! Sell them to me!
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.06 08:40:00 - [49] Meh. Last thing the Omen needs is to become more Maller-like. Amarr currently have a big-arse problem in that they only have one combat style. Simply throwing another turret on the Omen just reinforces this, and passes up an opportunity to do something [i]interesting[/d] with it. For example, give it more launcher hardpoints, like, four. Or even five, if it's going to be Ti3. Or a NOS bonus, or something.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 08:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Meh. Last thing the Omen needs is to become more Maller-like. Amarr currently have a big-arse problem in that they only have one combat style. Simply throwing another turret on the Omen just reinforces this, and passes up an opportunity to do something [i]interesting[/d] with it. For example, give it more launcher hardpoints, like, four. Or even five, if it's going to be Ti3. Or a NOS bonus, or something. As it is now, Maller is a tank, and omen is meant to be a damage dealer. Unfortunately, the Maller does more damage, unless you have cruiser 5, and even with that, the difference isn't vast. Adding this turret will stretch the omen's caps further, but give it much more damage, while not being anywhere near the tank of the maller. Looks like apoc/geddon to me.
Frools	Posted - 2006.06.06 10:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Meh. Last thing the Omen needs is to become more Maller-like. Amarr currently have a big-arse problem in that they only have one combat style. Simply throwing another turret on the Omen just reinforces this, and passes up an opportunity to do something [i]interesting[/d] with it. For example, give it more launcher hardpoints, like, four. Or even five, if it's going to be Ti3. Or a NOS bonus, or something. wtf, make the augoror do that or something if you must, we need a dps cruiser before we need a nossing cruiser or a missile cruiser
Sadist	Posted - 2006.06.06 10:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sadist That graph shows about _**_ information about how ships behave in real situations and arent even a remote reason for boosting any ship Thank you for contributing nothing. Your whole thread is pointless since the premises are wrong and you want to determine something from a useless graph, then you accuse me of contributing nothing? --------------- VIP member of the [23] Quote:** - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 15:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Sadist Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sadist That graph shows about _****_ information about how ships behave in real situations and arent even a remote reason for boosting any ship Thank you for contributing nothing. Your whole thread is pointless since the premises are wrong and you want to determine something from a useless graph, then you accuse me of contributing nothing? This isn't his thread, if you want to complain about that, take it elsewhere
Hitomi Ayame	Posted - 2006.06.06 16:00:00 - [54] Originally by: HippoKing I've been thinking about this a bit recently, and I just wondered what everyone else thought. All the races have 2 assault type t1 cruisers, making the basis for their HACs. These are: Omen Maller Vexor Thorax Caracal Moa Stabber Rupture I was thinking: these ships show the 2 main feature of their race's ideas. They are both used as a basis for HACs which are balanced to be evenly matched (unlike AFs). Yet one of these is tier3, the other is tier2. Looking at it, I think maybe it might work with both as tier3s. Along with a respective fitting boost, I'd add: A Highslot and turret to the Omen A Medslot to the Vexor A Lowslot to the Caracal A Lowslot to the Stabber What do you think? Would **** it up, or improve things? You could give a fifth turret hardpoint to the Omen, but it would probably be a completely useless addition. Why? Because I can already barely fit 4 lasers on the thing, much less 5! Before we go giving it more slots or hardpoints, give it what it really needs: more grid! Or, ya know, do both. That'd be pretty sweet I guess. I do not think the Vexor needs another med slot. It's already a pretty strong cruiser, and giving it another med would make the Arbitrator absolutely pointless. (unless the Arbitrator also got another med, or maybe another low, and yet again more grid!) The Caracal is a solid cruiser as-is, though I don't think an extra low would make it too overpowered. I've never really flown a Stabber enough to be able to remark on it, so no comment. - - -
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.06.06 16:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kaylana Syi After she whines about arties so my tempest get boost first. She? SHE? Thats just shameful That would never happen on team Amarr, we would refer to you as he or man slave Lmao! Your comment just got my keyboard and monitor aquainted with the concept of rain.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:04:00 - [56] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Joerd Toastius Meh. Last thing the Omen needs is to become more Maller-like. Amarr currently have a big-arse problem in that they only have one combat style. Simply throwing another turret on the Omen just reinforces this, and passes up an opportunity to do something interesting[/d] with it. For example, give it more launcher hardpoints, like, four. Or even five, if it's going to be Ti3. Or a NOS bonus, or something. As it is now, Maller is a tank, and omen is meant to be a damage dealer. Unfortunately, the Maller does more damage, unless you have cruiser 5, and even with that, the difference isn't vast. Adding this turret will stretch the omen's caps further, but give it much more damage, while not being anywhere near the tank of the maller. Looks like apoc/geddon to me. Yup, it currently looks exactly like Apoc/Geddon, which I'm saying is precisely what's [i]wrong with it. The current status quo is I am contending a very bad thing for the Amarr, because as a race they are entirely single-minded and this is turning into a huge drawback in both combat and ship development. This kind of change would be an opportunity to break away from the current norms rather than just reinforcing and reentrenching them.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Hitomi Ayame Originally by: HippoKing I've been thinking about this a bit recently, and I just wondered what everyone else thought. All the races have 2 assault type t1 cruisers, making the basis for their HACs. These are: Omen Maller Vexor Thorax Caracal Moa Stabber Rupture I was thinking: these ships show the 2 main feature of their race's ideas. They are both used as a basis for HACs which are balanced to be evenly matched (unlike AFs). Yet one of these is tier3, the other is tier2. Looking at it, I think maybe it might work with both as tier3s. Along with a respective fitting boosta, I'd add: A Highslot and turret to the Omen A Medslot to the Vexor A Lowslot to the Caracal A Lowslot to the Stabber What do you think? Would **** it up, or improve things? You could give a fifth turret hardpoint to the Omen, but it would probably be a completely useless addition. Why? Because I can already barely fit 4 lasers on the thing, much less 5! Before we go giving it more slots or hardpoints, give it what it really needs: more grid! Or, ya know, do both. That'd be pretty sweet I guess i've highlighted something for you
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:29:00 - [58] Edited by: Sharupak on 06/06/2006 17:31:11 OMG! A T2 rupture is outstanding! Warheads on Foreheads!!!
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Sharupak OMG! A T2 rupture would be outstanding! Warheads on Foreheads!!! excuse me?
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:31:00 - [60] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Joerd Toastius Meh. Last thing the Omen needs is to become more Maller-like. Amarr currently have a big-arse problem in that they only have one combat style. Simply throwing another turret on the Omen just reinforces this, and passes up an opportunity to do something interesting with it. For example, give it more launcher hardpoints, like, four. Or even five, if it's going to be Ti3. Or a NOS bonus, or something. As it is now, Maller is a tank, and omen is meant to be a damage dealer. Unfortunately, the Maller does more damage, unless you have cruiser 5, and even with that, the difference isn't vast. Adding this turret will stretch the omen's caps further, but give it much more damage, while not being anywhere near the tank of the maller. Looks like apoc/geddon to me. Yup, it currently looks exactly like Apoc/Geddon, which I'm saying is precisely what's wrong with it. The current status quo is I am contending a very bad thing for the Amarr, because as a race they are entirely single-minded and this is turning into a huge drawback in both combat and ship development. This kind of change would be an opportunity to break away from the current norms rather than just reinforcing and reentrenching them. I'm not sure what could be done without turning it into a khanid style monstrosity or a single bastard child in the amarr ship progression. I'm pretty sure we'll never see a nos bonus on a market t1 ship, but I could be wrong there. If one does come in on a cruiser, I'd guess it to hit the arbitrator rather than the omen. What I saw in the omen was a poor man's zealot, and truth be told, changing it drastically can't make sense with it being the basis for the zealot. As for breaking from norms, I honestly don't know if that is what eve needs. Amarr missileboats just don't really make sense RP wise, and just force more skill training. Sure Meridius and Team Amarr (now with new t2 Sarmaul) can give a better discussion of this than me: Amarr are the only race neither of my characters can fly to a decent standard.
Frools	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:36:00 - [61] Originally by: HippoKing What I saw in the omen was a poor man's zealot, and truth be told, changing it drastically can't make sense with it being the basis for the zealot. As for breaking from norms, I honestly don't know if that is what eve needs. Amarr missileboats just don't really make sense RP wise, and just force more skill training. if the omen was changed to anything but a damage ship i think i'd be forced to petition to have my medium laser skills switched to medium hybrid skills missiles + armour tank could work for khanid ships, they suck anyway and making them missiles + armour would be interesting its not like you could really have fewer people flying them
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:36:00 - [62] I think what Hippoking is basically bringing to light is that there's no real game room for low powered cruisers. He's right, and he'd have been right about frigates if he said them too. As it is just now there's cruisers and frigates that just don't get built, bought or flown. With battleships CCP have got it done so well that the T1 BSs are all worthwhile (cof typhoon), but for the lower tiers of frigates and cruisers it's questionable at best. So yes, I agree in principle, make the lower tier cruisers and frigates reasonable alternatives to the top tier ones, where they aren't already. I'm hesitant to comment on anything but Amarr, as I couldn't say I had an in depth knowledge of them. But the Abitrator having less cap and grid than a Vexor is almost evened out by extra midslot, and the useful EW bonus (but not quite, it's an Amarr ship!). The Omen needs a bit of a touch to make it nicer to fit, and the Augoror would need to be beefed up significantly in the tank department at the expense of it's (already poor) offence. As far as frigates are concerned, well, the Punisher is nice.... and that's all :P
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.06 17:39:00 - [63] The race as a whole needs something. Currently, it lacks. I'm not sure what would fill the hole but it's definitely there. Making it a missile boat as a the next ship in line after the Inquisitor is one route that kinda makes sense. Attribute it to Khanid influences seeping back into Amarr naval design or whatever, but it opens up the options. Yes, it mean training another weapons system - but the other races have that requirement already, and they're better and more flexible as a result. What I'd really like to see is for the Sac, Vengeance and Male to be re-oriented around a new philosophy - the obvious one is armour-tanking missile boats - and for a few Amarr T1 ships to reflect that in order to ease people in to the idea. As it stands we do not really need the Maller and the Omen - one of them could tank&gank in the way the Zealot does quite successfully, leaving the other hull available as a platform for a new weapons system. The sensible progression here is to make the Maller the Sac-equivalent, but that would seem to require it to be the Tier 2 ship and the Omen to be the Tier 3. I don't have a problem with this change, but it might be an issue for some. That said, I'm still not entirely convinced that the Omen and Maller don't justify themselves as "gank" and "tank" respectively, and that that specialisation isn't better (or perhaps more balanced) than a single ship that does both. And actually yeah, maybe it'd be better if the Augoror was given the "new weapons" role - the Arbi sets the precedent that the Amarr like to fit as many "special roles" into one second-line hull as possible. Hum. Either way, if a set of changes to cruisers is to be done, I think it would be foolish to pass up the opportunity to use such changes as a platform to diversify Amarr combat capabilities and tactics, because they're currently woefully limited.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.06.06 19:38:00 - [64] Omfg Sarmaul just agreed with Meri on a boost to Amarr. It truly is 06-06-06. The world may end tonight, but please boost Amarr a bit before it does. On HippoKing's suggested boosts to cruisers: I have to agree pretty much wholeheartedly. The Caracal could use an extra low, the Moa still needs a bit of love. Another low on the stabber would be about right. The Omen/Zealot both desperately need another high turret slot plus fittings for them to be balanced and up to par with thier competitors. I disagree on the Vexxor. Like the Ishkur, it's fittingless drone bonuses make up for it's missing slot in both flexibility and dps. Even moreso when you consider the enormous size of it's drone bay. Currently it outclasses the Arb in every way except the arb has one more mid for flexibility/ewar. That sounds balanced to me. I think drone ships are one of the most difficult items in Eve to balance effectively. Quick Amarr Tanking Suggestion First - Change Apoc bonus from Cap Capacity to Armor Resists per level. Every other ship ship bonus in Eve transfers up except this one. It needs to be adjusted as overall cap bonus is just not effective enough for tanking. Second - The Armor Resist bonuses on Amarr ships are not strong enough to be noticeable or to be balanced with the severe lack of dps that other racial ships gain through damage bonuses. It really needs to be raised to 7.5% per level, or perhaps even 10% to be significant. Alternatively just make the 25% resist given by ship bonus at max level not be subject to reduction %/stacking penalty. This provides a significant bonus to Amarr tanking, while not overpowering them as any mods still suffer from stacking penalties as well as reduced effectiveness from the higher percentages. Example: At BS lvl 5 an Apoc would have EM: 85% Expl: 45% Kin: 50% Therm: 60% as base resists. Suddenly the Apoc might actually be worthwhile to fly over a geddon. It would have surviveability to counteract the incredibly reduced dps it currently has in exchange for capacitor....... Maller and Proph suffer from the exact same issues. It provides a much needed "tanking flavor" to ships that are supposed to excel at it and provides a much needed diversity to Amarr ships in general. Think about it: what would you rather fly, a Maller with those resists or an Omen with 5 highs and the rof bonus? Wouldn't it be nice if you actually had a tough choice instead of a no-brainer? Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.06 20:11:00 - [65] Originally by: Nyxus Wouldn't it be nice if you actually had a tough choice instead of a no-brainer? Nyxus I heartily endorse this idea... for PvP I have to go to riculous lengths to get a tank that's anywhere reasonable for even small gangs on a BS. For fleet battles a tank is pointless. Also, Nyxus, check your evemail.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.06 20:25:00 - [66] Originally by: Nyxus I have to agree pretty much wholeheartedly. The Caracal could use an extra low, the Moa still needs a bit of love. Another low on the stabber would be about right. The Omen/Zealot both desperately need another high turret slot plus fittings for them to be balanced and up to par with thier competitors. I'm not sure on the zealot, thats another matter. The moa is hurting badly, thats another matter too. Originally by: Nyxus I disagree on the Vexxor. Like the Ishkur, it's fittingless drone bonuses make up for it's missing slot in both flexibility and dps. Even moreso when you consider the enormous size of it's drone bay. Currently it outclasses the Arb in every way except the arb has one more mid for flexibility/ewar. That sounds balanced to me. I think drone ships are one of the most difficult items in Eve to balance effectively. You're right there: the vexor was the one I was most unsure about, with its large drone bay possibly replacing a slot. Originally by: Nyxus Quick Amarr Tanking Suggestion First - Change Apoc bonus from Cap Capacity to Armor Resists per level. Every other ship ship bonus in Eve transfers up except this one. It needs to be adjusted as overall cap bonus is just not effective enough for tanking. Not really got a problem with this, would have to see how it played out. Originally by: Nyxus Second - The Armor Resist bonuses on Amarr ships are not strong enough to be noticeable or to be balanced with the severe lack of dps that other racial ships gain through damage bonuses. It really needs to be raised to 7.5% per level, or perhaps even 10% to be significant. I do have a big problem with this, it would be severely overpowered in my opinion. Originally by: Nyxus Alternatively just make the 25% resist given by ship bonus at max level not be subject to reduction %/stacking penalty. This provides a significant bonus to Amarr tanking, while not overpowering them as any mods still suffer from stacking penalties as well as reduced effectiveness from the higher percentages. It currently does not suffer the stacking penalty. Originally by: Nyxus Example: At BS lvl 5 an Apoc would have EM: 85% Expl: 45% Kin: 50% Therm: 60% as base resists. You have to be ***** kidding me. Originally by:** Nyxus Suddenly the Apoc might actually be worthwhile to fly over a geddon. It would have surviveability to counteract the incredibly reduced dps it currently has in exchange for capacitor....... Incredibly reduced? At BS 5, it does 86% of the damage, 92% at BS4. Not that much. Originally by: Nyxus Maller and Proph suffer from the exact same issues. It provides a much needed "tanking flavor" to ships that are supposed to excel at it and provides a much needed diversity to Amarr ships in general. Proph and Maller (probably needs a bit more fitting) are both fine ships. Originally by: Nyxus Think about it: what would you rather fly, a Maller with those resists or an Omen with 5 highs and the rof bonus? Wouldn't it be nice if you actually had a tough choice instead of a no-brainer? I don't want to make the omen better than the maller, I want them even. Maybe it needs a shortfall elsewhere.

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