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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.07 13:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kjellerup on 07/06/2006 13:22:19 This is of course the base mineral costs found on the Eve website. Your waste will add to these amounts. I will assume you have PE5, as anything else is just dumb. If you want to produce and sell, get that skill up there, in fact, log in now and start getting it up there now! Okay, let's see what ME0, ME10 and ME50 will do for this Kestrel. (Remember our formulas from above). Im using some average mineral prices so build costs isn't exact but the ratio between them are.
ME0 Tritanium 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 0)) * 14,852 = 16,337 Mexallon 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 0)) * 2,579= 2,837 Isogen 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 0)) * 861 = 947 Noxcium 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 0)) * 1 = 1 Zydrine 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 0)) * 1 = 1 Build cost 176,116 ISK
ME10 Tritanium 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 10)) * 14,852 = 14,987 Mexallon 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 10)) * 2,579= 2,602 Isogen 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 10)) * 861 = 868 Noxcium 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 10)) * 1 = 1 Zydrine 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 10)) * 1 = 1 Build cost 157,891 ISK
ME50 Tritanium 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 50)) * 14,852 = 14,881 Mexallon 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 50)) * 2,579= 2,584 Isogen 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 50)) * 861 = 862 Noxcium 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 50)) * 1 = 1 Zydrine 1.25 û 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 0.1 / (1 + 50)) * 1 = 1 Build cost 156,776 ISK
It should be clear that the more you research the less you gain from that research. But there is also something called Perfect ME, which is the point at which any further research will be fruitless. This is calculated per mineral and can be from 0! (yes you read correct) to millions!
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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.07 13:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kjellerup on 07/06/2006 13:21:28 Over time I've seen so many posts about Material Research (ME) on this forum. Some have been great, others pure guessing. Therefore I've decided to write this little paper on what skills and what research to do when you want to produce at low cost.
When you produce stuff there is always some kind of waste involved. This waste can be decreased by two things:
1) Your Production Efficiency skill (Reduces incompetence waste). Called PE. 2) The Material Research Level of the BPO (Reduces design waste). Called ME.
Wasteage is always added to the base mineral amount of what you are producing, and no skill level or ME lvl can reduce mineral cost below the base amount. Base amount is best found by looking up the item in item database on the Eve website.
First let me point out that there's a little confusion as to incompetence waste. According to the skill Production Efficiency it reduces waste by 4% per skill level, but according to the formula in the Player Guide it reduces waste by 5% per skill level. In the following I will assume it's 25% minus 5% per skill level, but it doesn't really matter if it's so or 20% - 4% per skill level, as you definitely want this skill at lvl 5 when going into production.
On a note some people will probably come here saying it's 25% - 4% per lvl, meaning you will always have a 5% incompetence waste, even at PE lvl 5. This is not true, as it's been tested and the numbers ingame simply gives PE5 a 0% incompetence waste.
The formula for calculating incompetence waste is therefore: 1.25 - 0.05 * PE lvl.
When you reach PE lvl 5 you are no longer incompetent at producing, so personally you have no waste. Unfortunately the BPO which you just bought have a few design flaws that gives it design waste. You can reduce this waste by researching the Material Level (ME) of the BPO. You can see the design waste on the BPO under Wasteage Factor. This is always 10% (0.1) except for some rare items that have a 5% (0.05) Wasteage Factor. Drones used to have a 5% wasteage factor, but apparently they don't anymore. By researching the BPO we can reduce the design waste using the following formula: 1 + Base Wasteage / (1 + ME lvl).
Let's do some numbers for ME then. Using the above formula on a BPO with 10% base wasteage, we can calculate our production waste (assuming PE 5) to be:
ME0 - 10% ME1 - 5% ME2 - 3.3% ME3 - 2.5% ME10 - 0.9% ME50 - 0.2%
As you can see, ME lvl's from 1 - 10 takes wasteage from 10% to 1% whereas lvl's 11 - 50 only takes it from 1% to 0.2%. For some people this will mean that researching a BPO above ME10 is a waste of time as you're only removing the last 1% of waste on those levels. I will leave that decision up to you. Generally the bigger the item, the more it will gain from being researched above ME10 but then again bigger items have a tendency to take ages for just one ME lvl.
Let's take what we know now and see an example. I will use the Kestrel for this example. Looking at the Kestrel BPO we can see that it requires the following materials:
Tritanium - 14,852 Mexallon - 2579 Isogen - 861 Noxcium - 1 Zydrine - 1
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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.07 13:20:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Kjellerup on 07/06/2006 13:23:35 Perfect ME is calculated by doing a little math on the above formula. As Perfect ME would be the ME lvl that yields no waste when we compare the base mineral level to our production of the item, we can easily calculate Perfect ME levels for this Kestrel. This has been done many times on this forum and basically comes down to this:
Perfect ME = Quantity * Base Wasteage Factor / 0.5 (Rounded down)
So back to the Kestrel, this gives us the following Perfect ME values:
Tritanium 14,852 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 2970 Mexallon 2,579 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 515 Isogen 861 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 172 Noxcium 1 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 0 Zydrine 1 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 0
Considering what we already know, I'll leave it up to you how much you will research this BPO, even though researching this BPO to ME2970 seems a bit overkill to save a little Tritanium. What you might also have noticed is that from ME50 to ME171 you save just 1 Isogen!
What some people fail to understand is that Perfect ME can be as low as 1 or even zero for a complete BPO! I'll give you two examples of this.
First we have the Nanofiber Internal Structure I Blueprint. It's mineral requirements are 9 Isogen and 1 Nocxium. Assuming we have PE5 the mineral requirements for Isogen at ME0, ME1 and ME10000 are as follows:
ME0: (1.25 - 0.05 * 5) * (1 + 0.1 / 1) * 9 = 10 ME1: (1.25 - 0.05 * 5) * (1 + 0.1 / 2) * 9 = 9 ME10000: (1.25 - 0.05 * 5) * (1 + 0.1 / 10001) * 9 = 9
Giving you a Perfect ME for Nanofiber Internal Structure of 1. We could of course have used our other formula:
Perfect ME = 9 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 1
An example of Perfect ME 0 is the laser crystal Microwave S, with the mineral requirements of 4 Tritanium, 1 Pyerite, 2 Mexallon, 3 Isogen and 3 Nocxium. It should already be clear that even ME1 would be a waste of time on this BPO.
With a little luck, this post will help loosen the strain on the Research Laboratory slots as people will hopefully stop spending time researching those Microwave S to ME200!
Okay, that's it. I hope this sheds a little light on the mystery of ME, PE and Perfect ME. By now you're probably wondering why some people pay 80 million for an ME50 and 125 million for an ME75 of the same BPO, when we've just shown that the difference in waste on these BPOs are just 0.0645%! Don't worry I've been wondering about that too
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2006.06.07 14:10:00 -
[4]
Can this post be linked to the BP Channel...... Please Explain to the new players, that ME 50 is not needed on BS BPC ....
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hydraSlav
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Posted - 2006.06.07 15:40:00 -
[5]
Awsome thread.
For somebody like me that is just research about production, this really helps
=================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated |
Suncats Shadow
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Posted - 2006.06.07 15:53:00 -
[6]
Very nicly done Kjellerup.
With all I have read on the other threads, I have not been pushing my ME above 15 for my BPO's. This is due to just what you stated in the low decrease in mineral usage after that.
I do spend some time working up the PE of the BPO in order to allow me to build that item faster; but again there is also a diminishing return on that.
I do hope you are right in the research slots opening up a bit now
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SpaceDrake Storyteller
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Posted - 2006.06.07 16:07:00 -
[7]
This thread deserves some glue tbfh. -------------- What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?
Player of the character "Andre Ricard". |
Neue Regel
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Posted - 2006.06.08 02:10:00 -
[8]
way too much math... can we have the short version please?
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Richard Masterson
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Posted - 2006.06.08 02:22:00 -
[9]
Many of the BPOS with ME 8 billion are holdovers from the old style lab slot system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you had a job installed your rent could become past due, but you would not use the slot. Therefore many BPOS were just stuck in there for placeholders. Now that you pay for the number of runs rather than a weeks worth of building, it's not as savvy to keep researching.
However, I'd like to point out that the owners of large item BPOS (battleships, etc.) that only use them to make copies and sell, have a higher interest in getting their ME above what others have. This is simply because if two BPCs are on escrow for 2 million each and one is ME 40 and the other ME 50, people will buy the ME 50 first.
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Aldir Rundal
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Posted - 2006.06.08 02:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Neue Regel way too much math... can we have the short version please?
...or and Excel sheet database. I really suck at math.
I do agree with Richard though, for pure market relavance, the higher the ME the higher the price you can sell for. This is a producers point of view though, there will be those smart enough to view this and only buy what they need.
Recruiting |
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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.08 07:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aldir Rundal
Originally by: Neue Regel way too much math... can we have the short version please?
...or and Excel sheet database. I really suck at math.
I do agree with Richard though, for pure market relavance, the higher the ME the higher the price you can sell for. This is a producers point of view though, there will be those smart enough to view this and only buy what they need.
Ehm, I suck at Excel, but I can give you a short version.
1) Train PE to Level 5 2) Research from ME11 to Perfect ME only removes the last 0.9% waste 3) An approximate Perfect ME can be found by dividing mineral costs by 5
Now this might cause a bit of flaming, but the flamers can read above, this is only for those who "suck at math"
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Jalqe
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Posted - 2006.06.08 08:48:00 -
[12]
A very good excel manufacturing spreadsheet can be found here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=316900
It has a page in it that will show you the 0 waste ME for any BP you select. Jalqe CEO Double-Helix Limited inc. |
zzCoins
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Posted - 2006.06.08 12:02:00 -
[13]
Whilst I agree that doing research over ME15 does not save much, that is only half the story. Where I am, in empire space, ME labs cost 83isk/hour so researching to ME150 or more is often a profitable thing to do. If lab costs were to rise then I would stop my excessive researching. In some other regions ME labs cost more, but the lab que suggests that they are still too cheap.
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Sable Moran
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Posted - 2006.06.08 12:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: zzCoins Where I am, in empire space, ME labs cost 83isk/hour so researching to ME150 or more is often a profitable thing to do.
Profitable??? On what grounds? Try as I might I really can't understand your logic, could you please clarify.
----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Juwi Kotch
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Posted - 2006.06.08 13:46:00 -
[15]
Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for!
Juwi Kotch
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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.08 13:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: zzCoins Where I am, in empire space, ME labs cost 83isk/hour so researching to ME150 or more is often a profitable thing to do.
I too fail to see the logic in this. Unless of course you talk about bpo's with high mineral requirements. But let's do the calculations on the Kestrel.
With ME 10 you use 14987 Trit, 2607 Pyerite, 869 Isogen, 1 Nocxium and 1 Zydrine With ME150 you use 14862 Trit, 2581 Pyerite, 862 Isogen, 1 Nocxium and 1 Zydrine
Saving you a total of 125 Tritanium, 26 Pyerite and 7 Isogen.
125 * 2 + 26 * 4 + 7 * 120 = 1,194 ISK saved per Kestrel.
Now I agree that you save a little on those extra 140 ME levels, but those levels come at a cost of approximately 17.5 days of research and a research cost of roughly 34,860 ISK. Now you have to sell 33 Kestrels just to make up for those ISK payed, and you have lost 17.5 days of selling Kestrels. All in all I seriously doubt that anyone knowing these numbers will do what you suggest, but hey, thats just my oppinion
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Night Swordstrike
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Posted - 2006.06.08 14:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: zzCoins Whilst I agree that doing research over ME15 does not save much, that is only half the story. Where I am, in empire space, ME labs cost 83isk/hour so researching to ME150 or more is often a profitable thing to do. If lab costs were to rise then I would stop my excessive researching. In some other regions ME labs cost more, but the lab que suggests that they are still too cheap.
In this you are completely incorrect. Let us use a BS BPO such as a dominix and just use fake market price for minerals and PE 5 in this example.
Dominix perfect build min cost : 50,000,000 <just an example>
Lets say its a tough market and you can only sell one a day at 55,000,000.
Just for the examples sake lets say each level of ME takes 3 days.
Player A takes 27 days to research ME 9 (1% waste). Player B takes 60 days to research to ME 20 (.476% waste) Player C takes 297 days to research ME 99 (.1 % waste).
A makes 4.5 mil per ship, B makes 4.76 mil per ship, C makes 4.95 mil per ship.
A pays off his investment of 500,000,000 in 111 (500 mil / 4.5 mil) + 27 = 138 days.
B takes 105 + 60 = 165 days to pay off his investment.
C takes 101 + 297 = 398 days to pay off his investment.
Now for the real fun. Lets caclulate how long it takes players B and C to catch up to A's overall profit level.
A paid off his BPO 27 days before B does, and 260 days before C does.
This gives A a profit lead of 121.5 mil vs B and 1170 mil vs C (at time that B and C reach break even).
B is now gaining 260,000 more per day than A but to catch up to A's lead it will take 467 more days to catch up, therefore at day 632 B is finaly passing A's profts.
C is gaining at 450,000 per day but has to make up 1,170,000,000 that takes 2600 days, therefore at day 2998 C is finally making more overall cash than A.
It's your choice to be A, B or C but I choose A.
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Neue Regel
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:11:00 -
[18]
Ok, I have it that you are saying research to 11. But If I want to go further, is there a formula to take it further. Say from 11 to 20, 20 to 40, 40 to 80 and so on? In other words, with there be a significant diference between 19 and 20, or is it all reletive.
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B1FF
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Night Swordstrike
Originally by: zzCoins Whilst I agree that doing research over ME15 does not save much, that is only half the story. Where I am, in empire space, ME labs cost 83isk/hour so researching to ME150 or more is often a profitable thing to do. If lab costs were to rise then I would stop my excessive researching. In some other regions ME labs cost more, but the lab que suggests that they are still too cheap.
In this you are completely incorrect. Let us use a BS BPO such as a dominix and just use fake market price for minerals and PE 5 in this example.
Dominix perfect build min cost : 50,000,000 <just an example>
Lets say its a tough market and you can only sell one a day at 55,000,000.
Just for the examples sake lets say each level of ME takes 3 days.
Player A takes 27 days to research ME 9 (1% waste). Player B takes 60 days to research to ME 20 (.476% waste) Player C takes 297 days to research ME 99 (.1 % waste).
A makes 4.5 mil per ship, B makes 4.76 mil per ship, C makes 4.95 mil per ship.
A pays off his investment of 500,000,000 in 111 (500 mil / 4.5 mil) + 27 = 138 days.
B takes 105 + 60 = 165 days to pay off his investment.
C takes 101 + 297 = 398 days to pay off his investment.
Now for the real fun. Lets caclulate how long it takes players B and C to catch up to A's overall profit level.
A paid off his BPO 27 days before B does, and 260 days before C does.
This gives A a profit lead of 121.5 mil vs B and 1170 mil vs C (at time that B and C reach break even).
B is now gaining 260,000 more per day than A but to catch up to A's lead it will take 467 more days to catch up, therefore at day 632 B is finaly passing A's profts.
C is gaining at 450,000 per day but has to make up 1,170,000,000 that takes 2600 days, therefore at day 2998 C is finally making more overall cash than A.
It's your choice to be A, B or C but I choose A.
Your example is wrong. A BPO is not a cost. A BPO is an asset. You don't loose anything when you buy a BPO. You don't need to earn that 500 mil back. In fact researching ME to 10 increases your wealth. In your example you would only have to account for the money and time cost of the additional ME.
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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Neue Regel Ok, I have it that you are saying research to 11. But If I want to go further, is there a formula to take it further. Say from 11 to 20, 20 to 40, 40 to 80 and so on? In other words, with there be a significant diference between 19 and 20, or is it all reletive.
Okay, as said before I suck at Excel, but I just made a little spreadsheet on waste at different ME levels. It's very simple and I know it, so don't flame me too much
Spreadsheet
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Neue Regel
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Posted - 2006.06.08 22:54:00 -
[21]
wow Kjellerup, that was not required by any means but I appreciate it. So really, it is purely an incremental change and each level of ME is in fact a specific level or wastage savings.
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Neue Regel
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Posted - 2006.06.08 23:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Neue Regel on 08/06/2006 23:50:26 OK, after using your spreadsheet you created, I created another spreadsheet that shows the incremental savings after certain ME on a BP. I used a Raven for the example. After looking at the data, it doesnt really make sense to research it over 19. The difference between perfect and a BP not reserchaed at all is like 9.5 million in current average prices for minerals. By researching the BP to 1, you already have saved $4,657,672 per ship. Going to ME 9 saves you $8,290,657 from a non researched BP. Going to level 19 saves you an additional $535,632 from the ME 9 BP and overall $8,826,289 from a non researched BP. At ME 19 you are $489,056 form being perfect and going above ME 19 seems silly in the amount of time you would spend to research the BP in regrads to the minimal savings you would obtain.
Here is the spreadsheet info.
Linkage
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Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.09 00:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Neue Regel
Here is the spreadsheet info.
Linkage
Nice Job. That was for a Raven. Imagine what little difference it does to frigs and modules
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IonHammer
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Posted - 2006.06.09 01:17:00 -
[24]
nice post Kjellerup
i was lucky to get a production spreadsheet way back it had a killer sheet for looking at research benifits.
I know with bs's me7 bpo needs to be the first research level b4 u run copies, then the difference between me7 me 20 saves a bit more.
Where many look at the differences between me x and y the main thing is to get to me7 build some ships with the bpc's u have then research a few more me levels. Think our bs's are at me 25 now dont seem the need to ramp em up any more i might sneak em out to me 30 but ...
I am one a few that likes to do pe research because sometimes 4 hours for a bs is just to long a time to wait :)
talking about return and research me levels and the such always seems to be a little pointless to me unless you fully utilise your bpo and i dont know many people that do that, I certainly dont build 60 bs a week that for sure from our stock thats for sure.
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zzmin
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Posted - 2006.06.09 10:22:00 -
[25]
Edited by: zzmin on 09/06/2006 10:23:28 Spending a year researching a BS BPO is not smart. Lets go back to Kjellerup's Kestral calculations
Quote:
125 * 2 + 26 * 9 + 7 * 120 = 1,324 ISK saved per Kestrel.
Now I agree that you save a little on those extra 140 ME levels, but those levels come at a cost of approximately 46 days of research and a research cost of roughly 34,860 ISK. Now you have to sell 26 Kestrels just to make up for those ISK payed, and you have lost 46 days of selling Kestrels.
So the extra research is profitable once 26 kestrals have been sold. I would not buy a BPO unless I expected to sell a lot more than 26.
I will however have lost 46 days of manufacturing time. If the Kesrtal BPO is my only BPO then this is a problem, but I have a lot more BPOs than factory slots so the BPO would have been unused for most of that time anyway, so no real loss.
I am zzCoins
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Potior Clades
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Posted - 2006.06.09 12:31:00 -
[26]
So, what about PE level of a BPO? How much in percent does the production time reduce per level?
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Night Swordstrike
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Posted - 2006.06.09 19:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: B1FF
Your example is wrong. A BPO is not a cost. A BPO is an asset. You don't loose anything when you buy a BPO. You don't need to earn that 500 mil back. In fact researching ME to 10 increases your wealth. In your example you would only have to account for the money and time cost of the additional ME.
I still say too much ME isn't a good idea if you can put it into production.
The BPO is an asset but it you still want to earn back the ISK as fast as possible so you can buy more BPO's. Leaving a BPO in ME too long is a waste of resources even it's value does go up (And smart buyers won't pay much more for a ME 40 BPO over a ME 20 BPO ... but then again there are plenty of people who don't know how the system works).
I have BPOs that are at ME 9 and are earning back 10% of their basic value each and every day. I think 10 days of production and a new BPO is better than a BPO at 14 ME.
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hydraSlav
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Posted - 2006.06.09 20:41:00 -
[28]
Edited by: hydraSlav on 09/06/2006 20:41:45
Originally by: Potior Clades So, what about PE level of a BPO? How much in percent does the production time reduce per level?
I am wondering the same. Would someone please shed some light for us newbs? Thanks
=================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated |
Halada
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Posted - 2006.06.09 21:15:00 -
[29]
Excellent guide! I know it can be hard to summarize and find all the information, very well done
My mining guide |
Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.09 21:21:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kjellerup on 09/06/2006 21:22:25
Originally by: Potior Clades So, what about PE level of a BPO? How much in percent does the production time reduce per level?
Ah, yeah PE research, well to calculate PE lvls you actually need the data that is available in the CCP data transfers by t20!
Luckily Fubar already wrote about this, so that kind of saves me some time
Fubar's calculations
Fubar doens't talk about what it means, so I guess a little explanation is in order. Production time is governed by 3 factors.
1) Achievable time saving from PE research, only found in the above mentioned data transfers 2) PE level on the blueprint 3) Your Industry skill
So lets start with the easy stuff. By training Industry you save 4% production time per level up to a total saving of 20% at Industry level 5.
Additionally you can save some extra time be researching PE on the blueprint. For 90% of all blueprints, the maximum time you can save by researching PE is another 20%. The last 10% (253 blueprints) are a mix of COSMOS and some T2 items (I know you're gonna ask, so I made a list of them here). The time you can save on these are very varied and are listed too, though I doubt you will find most of these as BPOs ingame.
Using Fubar's formula we find that we can save the following time at different PE lvl's:
PE 1 - 10% PE 2 - 13% PE 5 - 17% PE10 - 18% PE20 - 19%
It's clear that this follows the same pattern as we saw with ME. Now I've never researched PE that high, but when you reach PE39 you are at exactly 19.5% and at ME1000 you are at 19.98%. In accordance with my ME post I've made an Excel spreadsheet showing what percentage of time you save at different ME lvl's.
PE spreadsheet
Hope this answers your question
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.06.13 18:00:00 -
[31]
Nice post.
Still makes me laugh that there are carebears who don't get this stuff. WTB ME50 thorax bpo...LOL.
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hydraSlav
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Posted - 2006.06.13 19:22:00 -
[32]
STICKY
Thank you so much, dude. Concise and to the point that a non-manufacturing player can understand.
=================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated |
B1FF
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Posted - 2006.06.13 21:17:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Night Swordstrike
I still say too much ME isn't a good idea if you can put it into production.
I never disagreed with this point. In fact I agree with this point. I don't understand why you feel the need to make it again. I was mearly pointing out that you were using a flawed accounting model for your example.
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Linada
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Posted - 2006.06.17 13:17:00 -
[34]
Nice guide, it illustrates it quite nicely. I vote sticky too :)
Livetech |
Hikari Destiny
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Posted - 2006.06.17 18:48:00 -
[35]
It's strange, I've put the formulas in an excel sheet and tried to find good ME for my BPO, and I found the Perfect ME was the amount of the material you wish to save divided by 10, not 5.
Are you sure of this * 0.1/0.5 (= /5)?
I don't have the skill at 5 so I can't realy test right now.
Anyway, thanks for all of this post!
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Utoxin
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Posted - 2006.06.18 05:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Hikari Destiny It's strange, I've put the formulas in an excel sheet and tried to find good ME for my BPO, and I found the Perfect ME was the amount of the material you wish to save divided by 10, not 5.
Are you sure of this * 0.1/0.5 (= /5)?
I don't have the skill at 5 so I can't realy test right now.
Anyway, thanks for all of this post!
Here's a better explanation for you.
Let's use 100 as the mineral requirement for our test.
100 * 0.1 = 10
That's simple.
Now, let's look at 0.5.
0.5 = 1/2
How do you divide by a fraction? Multiply by the inverse of the fraction. So...
100 * 0.1 * 2 = x
10 * 2 = x
20 = x
20 = 100 / 5
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Sarmea Moon
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Posted - 2006.06.18 13:31:00 -
[37]
However, what are the numbers if you DON'T have PE5? I think this is why people want to buy those me 50 BPCs. I personally don't research over 20 myself for anything, but I have PE5, Industry 5 etc. For those who are using loot melted minerals to make a BS, what might be a good ME for them to use? We are talking about people who maybe have the mining 2 skill they started the game with:) I think posting the number, then cross-posting them into the newbie forum would be good. I don't think the mods would get too upset, as it affects new players, or new-to-manufacturing players. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.18 15:24:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sarmea Moon However, what are the numbers if you DON'T have PE5? I think this is why people want to buy those me 50 BPCs. I personally don't research over 20 myself for anything, but I have PE5, Industry 5 etc. For those who are using loot melted minerals to make a BS, what might be a good ME for them to use? We are talking about people who maybe have the mining 2 skill they started the game with:) I think posting the number, then cross-posting them into the newbie forum would be good. I don't think the mods would get too upset, as it affects new players, or new-to-manufacturing players.
Ehm ...
That would be the same. ME will not remove your incompetence waste due to low Industri skill. So the spreadsheet actually shows ME waste for all Industry levels. But let's just make an example anyway, and let's take something big like the Megathron, just to have some obscene mineral requirements.
I'm not gonna list all the minerals, and do all the calcultions again, as I've listed those formulas in the above posts, but I hope you'll beleive me when I list the following numbers for you:
Megathron ME10, Industri 0 - Build cost approx: 108,128,990.74 ISK Megathron ME50, Industri 0 - Build cost approx: 107,364,963.24 ISK
ISK saved: 764,027.5 Percentage saved: 0.7%
Megathron ME10, Industri 5 - Build cost approx: 86,503,192.60 ISK Megathron ME50, Industri 5 - Build cost approx: 85,891,970.59 ISK
ISK saved: 611,222.01 Percentage saved: 0.7%
If you look in the spreadsheet on ME, you'll see that the difference between ME 10 and ME 50 is indeed 0,7%.
Hopefully this also proves why you want to train that Industry skill, at least a few levels!
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Matthew
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Posted - 2006.06.18 19:03:00 -
[39]
While this is a great thread, there are a couple more things to be pointed out.
The first one is the cross-subsidisation effect. This is where the benefits of one ME level are used to subsidise the researching of another ME level. This happens implicitly every time you compare 2 ME levels that are not adjacent to each other. For example, using the OP's numbers for the kestrel, we can see that moving from ME0 to ME10 saves you 18225 isk per kestrel. However, far more of that saving is going to be due to going from ME0 to ME1 than from going from ME9 to ME10. By looking at 0-10 as a block, you are implicity saying that this extra saving from the lower ME levels is being used to subsidise research at the higher ME levels. If this is not what you want to do, then you have to only ever compare adjacent ME levels. And if cross-subisdisation is something that you want to do, you have to apply it consistently - bands such as ME0,1,2,3,10,50 are not consistent and will give distorted results. If you want to do cross-subsidisation, you should always compare from ME0 to your desired ME level, even if your BP has already been researched - otherwise you'd get the incorrect answer that a partially-researched BP is less researchable than a new one.
The second point is that a mathematically rigorous optimal ME level is possible to work out for a given situation. What you need to specify the situation are mineral values, the mineral requirements at each ME level for your BP, the costs of research (both lab rental costs and any oppourtunity costs incurred by locking the BP into the lab) and the number of runs at which you want to break even.
There are then two main optimality conditions you could choose from, the difference between them being cross-subsidisation. The short-term optimal does not use cross-subsidisation, and looks for the highest ME level at which the savings from researching that ME level are more than the cost of researching that ME level. Mathematically, you are looking for the highest ME that satisfies:
Breakeven_runs*(Saving(ME) - Saving(ME-1)) > Cost_Per_ME_Run
Where Breakeven_runs is the number of runs at which your research investment breaks even, Saving(ME) is the saving gained by that ME over ME0, and Cost_per_ME_Run is the lab rent + oppourtunity costs of performing 1 ME level of research.
This will give you better results in the short term, however someone using a cross-subsidisation optimal will overtake you in the long term.
The crude version of the cross-subsidisation optimal (which I do not advise actually using), rearranges the short term equation to become:
Breakeven_Runs*Saving(ME) > ME*Cost_Per_ME_Run
This uses the better-than-breakeven savings realised at low ME levels to subsidise later ME levels which would not break even on their own. While this puts you in a worse short term position, in the long term you will realise more overall savings.
The downside of this crude version is that it does not place any limit on how long it would take you to overtake the short-term optimal. For large BPs, especially battleships, the savings at early ME levels are very large compared to lab costs, which can result in that formula recommending ME500+, requiring thousands of runs before you break even compared to the short-term optimal. This is why I don't suggest using it.
What you want is a more cunning method of applying it - this is achieved by considering the short-term optimal savings as a cost in the long-term formula. Your breakeven_runs then specifies the number of runs at which you break even compared to the short term optimal, rather than comapred to the zero baseline. The formula then becomes:
Breakeven_runs*saving(Long_ME) > Long_ME*Cost_per_ME_Run + Short_ME*saving(Short_ME)
With Short_ME being calculated using the short-term formula above. This will result in a long term optimal constrained by the short term optimal - however the short and long term optimals may be the same for cheaper goods. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Kjellerup
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Posted - 2006.06.19 09:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Matthew While this is a great thread, there are a couple more things to be pointed out.
Nice post You've got some interesting points and nice formulas to back it up. My post was directed at those people who goes "omgwtf ME200, I think i'll pay an extra 500 million for this BPO" or people just starting research and production that want to know the benefits of ME and PE. Clearly you are not one of those
I'm not trying to make people do ME10 instead of ME50, those numbers are just picked for reference to make the post consistent.
--------------------------- Empyreum Recruitment
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Matthew
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Posted - 2006.06.19 11:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kjellerup
Originally by: Matthew While this is a great thread, there are a couple more things to be pointed out.
Nice post You've got some interesting points and nice formulas to back it up. My post was directed at those people who goes "omgwtf ME200, I think i'll pay an extra 500 million for this BPO" or people just starting research and production that want to know the benefits of ME and PE. Clearly you are not one of those
Yeah, my post is more for those with too much time on their hands to play with the maths behind it, and in persuading excel to do those calcuations. Your post is great at getting the fundamentals of the system across, just thought I'd supplement it with a suggestions on where to go when you want to use more than the standard rules of thumb.
Of course, even with those equations, there's still a fair bit of skill involved in reading the market and planning ahead to get realistic breakeven values and long-term mineral prices. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Sarmea Moon
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Posted - 2006.06.19 13:55:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kjellerup
Originally by: Sarmea Moon However, what are the numbers if you DON'T have PE5? I think this is why people want to buy those me 50 BPCs. I personally don't research over 20 myself for anything, but I have PE5, Industry 5 etc. For those who are using loot melted minerals to make a BS, what might be a good ME for them to use? We are talking about people who maybe have the mining 2 skill they started the game with:) I think posting the number, then cross-posting them into the newbie forum would be good. I don't think the mods would get too upset, as it affects new players, or new-to-manufacturing players.
Ehm ...
That would be the same. ME will not remove your incompetence waste due to low Industri skill. So the spreadsheet actually shows ME waste for all Industry levels. But let's just make an example anyway, and let's take something big like the Megathron, just to have some obscene mineral requirements.
I'm not gonna list all the minerals, and do all the calcultions again, as I've listed those formulas in the above posts, but I hope you'll beleive me when I list the following numbers for you:
Megathron ME10, Industri 0 - Build cost approx: 108,128,990.74 ISK Megathron ME50, Industri 0 - Build cost approx: 107,364,963.24 ISK
ISK saved: 764,027.5 Percentage saved: 0.7%
Megathron ME10, Industri 5 - Build cost approx: 86,503,192.60 ISK Megathron ME50, Industri 5 - Build cost approx: 85,891,970.59 ISK
ISK saved: 611,222.01 Percentage saved: 0.7%
If you look in the spreadsheet on ME, you'll see that the difference between ME 10 and ME 50 is indeed 0,7%.
Hopefully this also proves why you want to train that Industry skill, at least a few levels!
I understood this, I was just too lazy to do the math. A corpmate bought some BS BPCs that were me50 over some 500k cheaper me10's. Looks like he made the right choice. If they had cost MORE than 500k more, he'd have lost out:) Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Satomila Kunis
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Posted - 2006.06.23 19:27:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Satomila Kunis on 23/06/2006 19:27:24 edit: nvm, answered my question
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D'Nar
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Posted - 2006.06.25 23:17:00 -
[44]
Lovely post, quite deserving of some glue. _____ Please Hold For Sig Note that these comments do not represent my opinion, or that of my corporation, alliance, government, or ISP.
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:56:00 -
[45]
Why is this not stickied? I just went through 8 pages to find this
=================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated |
Smada
Templar Republic
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Posted - 2006.07.25 21:51:00 -
[46]
Ooooooieee Mr & Mrs Mod o/
Please apply some adhesive to this thread.
Clearest, easiest to read explanation of ME/PE research I've ever seen.
Might prevent some advanced muppetry in the research field and free up a few slots.
Whilst also saving people from those "Doh!" moments when they realise they paid over the top for that shiny new ME50 BPC they just bought off escrow, when they could have had an ME 20 one for half the price.
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
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Posted - 2006.08.03 15:37:00 -
[47]
It's like the mods dont want people to know how to work ME research efficiently
=================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated |
Ozmodan
Minmatar Lumeria Mu Explorations Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.04 05:12:00 -
[48]
Been looking all over for this information, even left a post on the board earlier asking what PE and ME were because the player guide just did not explain it.
If anything needs a sticky this post does. Learners permit still current |
Choralone
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.06 09:09:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kjellerup First let me point out that there's a little confusion as to incompetence waste. According to the skill [url="http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/SkillsAccessories/Skills/Industry/3388.asp" Production Efficiency[/url] it reduces waste by 4% per skill level, but according to the formula in the Player Guide it reduces waste by 5% per skill level. In the following I will assume it's 25% minus 5% per skill level, but it doesn't really matter if it's so or 20% - 4% per skill level, as you definitely want this skill at lvl 5 when going into production.
On a note some people will probably come here saying it's 25% - 4% per lvl, meaning you will always have a 5% incompetence waste, even at PE lvl 5. This is not true, as it's been tested and the numbers ingame simply gives PE5 a 0% incompetence waste.
Your base incompetence waste is 25%. Therefore you can calculate a formula for incompentence waste as: 1.25 - 0.05 * PE lvl.
Actually, the 25% - 4% as documented is correct. The 4% reduction is based on the amount with maximum waste, not the perfect amount.
It goes like this:
1.25 - PE(.04)(1.25)
If PE is 5:
1.25 - 5(.04)(1.25)= 1.25 - .20(1.25) = 1.25 - .25 = 1.00
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Kjellerup
Minmatar Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.08.06 10:27:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kjellerup on 06/08/2006 10:30:51 Edited by: Kjellerup on 06/08/2006 10:27:11
Originally by: Choralone Actually, the 25% - 4% as documented is correct. The 4% reduction is based on the amount with maximum waste, not the perfect amount.
It goes like this:
1.25 - PE(.04)(1.25)
If PE is 5:
1.25 - 5(.04)(1.25)= 1.25 - .20(1.25) = 1.25 - .25 = 1.00
Well, that makes perfect sense. It gives the same results as my post, namely a 5% effective reduction, your math makes the documentation correct though. Thanks for clearing that up.
--------------------------- Empyreum Recruitment
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Sprak
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 01:41:00 -
[51]
Nice post. Very useful, and could use some glue
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.08.09 11:03:00 -
[52]
great post
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Spamson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 11:23:00 -
[53]
Nice post Kj, deserves some glue and staples
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Viddles
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.12 23:30:00 -
[54]
Manufacturing time question... are the savings that come from Industry Skill Level and BPO Productivity Level multiplied by each other, or added to each other? Example case:
Let's say you have Industry Skill Level 4, that enables you to manufacture items in 84% of the time someone who hadn't trained it at all would take.
Let's say you have a BPO that has been researched to a Productivity Level of 4 - which as far as I can tell allows a run to be manufactured in 84% of the time of the equivalent BPO whose Productivity Level is zero.
Does the person with Industry 4 manufacture this item in 70.56% of the time the "untrained noob" takes? (multiplied) or... in 68% of the time the untrained noob takes? (added together)
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Erast Akunin
Akunin Shipyards
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Posted - 2006.08.13 05:31:00 -
[55]
Let's keep this active, mod's will eventually stickeh this great thread.
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Xenos Barata
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:35:00 -
[56]
Just getting into research and manufacturing. This is just the thing for me.
It sure helped clear up a lot that I couldn't find any where else!!
Many Thanks!!
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Duradam
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:57:00 -
[57]
vote for sticky +1
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.08.13 22:59:00 -
[58]
All those voting for a sticky, this thread won't be stickied on it's own. It might, however, be included in the Useful Links sticky, if the suggestions are posted there as they are intended to be. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Chondu Hataki
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Posted - 2006.08.14 04:35:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Chondu Hataki on 14/08/2006 04:37:08 Great post, really helped me understand ME. Just some numbers in my game are bothering me.
I'll use a tristan BPO for this. At 0 ME, so the waste factor is 0.1
--------------- PERFECT / YOU(me) PE0 Tritanium 23071 / 28839 PE1 Tritanium 23071 / 27686
I can't see where the 0.1 waste factor is calculated
At PE 0 my cost in tritanium was 28839, which was of course 1.25 times the perfect cost. At PE 1 my cost is 27686 which is 1.20 times the perfect cost.
Now if i were to calculate in the BPO 0.1 waste the numbers would/should be higher.. what gets me is, in OURS(system) my Tritanium cost is less when i get a quote from a factory.
At PE 1, Tritanium cost is 27265, which is 98.5% of the said cost in the BPO. So where is this final number coming from? Does the station have greater than 100% manufacturing effiency? If so is it so great it pretty much cancels out the 10% wastage factor in my unresearched BPO? I think i am missing something so if someone could fill me in i'd be quite content :)
Thanks
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GC13
Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.08.14 07:06:00 -
[60]
Quote: If you have ever used Show Info on a blueprint and your Production Efficiency skill was under five, you may have noticed that the mineral cost entered for "You" is slightly higher than what the factory quote says you need. This is because for purposes of generating the mineral requirement in the blueprint's Bill of Materials, it multiplies the waste caused by having a Production Efficiency skill below five in with the waste caused by a blueprint's Material Level being below perfect. For the factory, however, the wastes are calculated independently of one another, and then added. The proper formula for mineral cost is as follows:
Mineral cost = Base cost + (Base cost * (0.25 - (0.05 * Production Efficiency))) + (Base cost * Mineral wasteage factor)
(Note that "base cost" refers to the pre-waste cost listed in the Item Database at www.eve-online.com.)
The factories round down any decimal value in "Mineral Cost" that is less than 0.5 to zero. This is done for each run individually, so ten runs with a Zydrine waste of 0.1 per run will waste zero Zydrine, not one unit. Likewise, any decimal value 0.5 and above is rounded up to one. This means 6.5 wasted units of Mexallon become 7, and 9.374 wasted units of Isogen are turned into just 9.
That's what my guide has to say about this issue. I hope it answers all of your questions.
---
New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide. |
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Kjellerup
Minmatar Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.08.14 08:04:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Kjellerup on 14/08/2006 08:09:09
Originally by: Chondu Hataki Edited by: Chondu Hataki on 14/08/2006 04:37:08 Great post, really helped me understand ME. Just some numbers in my game are bothering me.
I'll use a tristan BPO for this. At 0 ME, so the waste factor is 0.1
--------------- PERFECT / YOU(me) PE0 Tritanium 23071 / 28839 PE1 Tritanium 23071 / 27686
ETC ...
As GC13 wrote, you have to look up the perfect build amount on the EVE website, rather than showing info on the blueprint. If you do that you'll find that the Base Mineral cost for the Tristan is 20974 Tritanium. If you use the formula provided by GC13 you'll find that at PE1 and ME0 you indeed use 20974 + (20974 * (0.25 - 1) + (20974 * 0.1) = 27265 provided that you round each result within the parentheses.
So where do the numbers on the blueprint come from? Well I actually think it's a screw up by CCP. The only way I can get them to match is by taking the Base Amount and instead of using the above formula, then multiply in series. EDIT: (As I just read GC13 mentions too)
If you take the numbers for Tritanium: 20974 * 1.1 * 1.25 = 28839.25 And at PE1: 20974 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 27685.68
Now according to the Player Guide, the BPO numbers should be the correct ones as the Guide clearly shows a formula that multiplies in series:
Originally by: Player Guide
(1.25 - 0.05 * Production Efficiency Skill Level) * (1 + (Base Waste Factor / (1 + Blueprint Mineral Efficiency Level)) * Base Minerals
But when actually making a production job, GC13's formula is used. I don't know which programmer at CCP got it right, but right now we got the cheapest one, so we shouldn't complain too much
--------------------------- Empyreum Recruitment
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Chondu Hataki
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Posted - 2006.08.14 15:05:00 -
[62]
Sounds good to me. I musta missed that part in the guide but for now im happy with the cheapest formula
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Bado Sten
Minmatar Accretion Dynamics C O I N Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.15 18:46:00 -
[63]
When is this thread getting a sticky? Would be great if it made people stop researching ME to 100 and freed up some slots
-- Vivian: You go too far, Marlowe. Marlowe: Those are harsh words to throw at a man, especially when he's walking out of your bedroom. |
DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2006.08.15 20:52:00 -
[64]
too much typing for what little info there is ;) But yea, it looks to be fairly "there".
ccp didnt make a screw up when you view blueprint info of a npc print (it states clearly that it's me:0 and it is what it'll be when you buy it. Escrow should be expanded to get around that I think).
You also forgot about 2 mutators. One cuts wastage in half (so your base waste factor can be .1 or .05) The other is that some items are immune to wastage calculations. (I figgure that's more of a insane mutator that jsut refuses it a chance to get more numbers added of said item)
Mutators are not public info so I guess there's not a big reason to point them out ;).
Wastage in a pos is also calc'd in a strange way and those HIGHLY EXCESSIVE research'd prints can have a place.
and prints like say a heavy nos bpo @ 2190 me has a place too ;).. Mineral compression.
I guess the only "odd" thing to think about is where your next bit of expensive mineral will break over.
lets say 9 -> 10 takes you down 10k.. 10 -> 11 2k, and then 11 -> 12 takes you down 19k. Those spots are not on many prints but when morphite, mega, or zyd are not at perfect build levels then it can make a big difference in the long run ;) ---- WTB Aurora S bpo - Evemail me in game.. Scammed by "Not Superman" AKA "Nyphur" Then go visit the link |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:18:00 -
[65]
I've been looking at GC13's formula for the waste. If (and I stress the If) I am applying it correctly, it gives slightly inaccurate amounts for large numbers of runs.
I have a blueprint which has a base trit cost of (among others) 1786. I know from actually manufacturing it that the wastage per run is 268.3, this I found by doing enough runs that rounding was never done on the numbers, and dividing by the number of runs. So for say 100 runs, the waste is 26830.
Calclulating this using GC13's forumla: Mineral cost = Base cost + (Base cost * (0.25 - (0.05 * Production Efficiency))) + (Base cost * Mineral wasteage factor) Waste = (Base cost * (0.25 - (0.05 * Production Efficiency))) + (Base cost * Mineral wasteage factor)
He says it is rounded per run, so I calculate for one run and multiply by the number of runs, right? Waste=(1786*0.05)+(1786*0.1) Waste=89.3+178.6 267.9 Rounded=268 For 100 runs = 26800.
This is slightly inaccurate.
I have found that it is possible to correct this by only rounding the ME waste per run, and rounding the total at the end. So: Waste=(1786*0.05)+(1786*0.1) =89.3+178.6 =89.3+179 <=== Round ME only =268.3 For 100 runs = 26830
For one run this rounds to 268, as per the result of the original formula. However, for larger runs that .3 is not rounded out, and impacts the number slightly. It is just me or does the original formula not account for this? ----------
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GC13
Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:14:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Crumplecorn For one run this rounds to 268, as per the result of the original formula. However, for larger runs that .3 is not rounded out, and impacts the number slightly. It is just me or does the original formula not account for this?
Interesting. I'll see what I can do with this (as soon as I do a clean Eve install WITHOUT the test patch, which it prompted me to install after I connected to TQ...).
---
New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide. |
Fubar
Amarr Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 04:40:00 -
[67]
Crumplecorn,
Your findings are correct.
ME waste is rounded before it is multiplied by the number of runs.
Skill waste and station waste are not rounded before they are multiplied by the number of runs.
But, and a big but, if a particular mineral does not have ME waste it will not have skill waste or station waste. This is a bug in my opinion.
So basically you have (Excel functions) *you all know the waste formulas so I will not post them here
Waste_1 = round(ME waste) * qty Waste_2 = skill waste * qty Waste_3 = station waste * qty
Final waste = int(waste-1 + waste_2 + waste_3)
And remember in the above if waste_1 = 0 then waste_2 and waste_3 will also equal zero.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:14:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Fubar But, and a big but, if a particular mineral does not have ME waste it will not have skill waste or station waste. This is a bug in my opinion.
Can someone confirm so that with large enough mineral requirements the likes of megacyte are wasted? I checked the minerals I found never to be wasted, namely megacyte and zydrine, and found that in the bill of materials these, along with morphite, do not have and 'you' and 'perfect' listed, but just one figure, which lead me to believe that these higher-end minerals might never be wasted? However the above quoted also explains it rather nicely, and makes more sense, I'd just like to be sure...... ----------
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Fubar
Amarr Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Can someone confirm so that with large enough mineral requirements the likes of megacyte are wasted?
I can confirm that waste calculations are always performed on minerals.
The mineral requirements shown in a blueprints showinfo window are not correct for characters that do not have production efficiency level 5. There is mention of this in the known issues section of this website. You should always look at a manufacturing quote to determine what minerals are required to build an item, don't rely on the show info list.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:35:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Fubar
Originally by: Crumplecorn Can someone confirm so that with large enough mineral requirements the likes of megacyte are wasted?
I can confirm that waste calculations are always performed on minerals.
Sweet! Your explanation seems to be correct so.
Originally by: Fubar The mineral requirements shown in a blueprints showinfo window are not correct for characters that do not have production efficiency level 5. There is mention of this in the known issues section of this website. You should always look at a manufacturing quote to determine what minerals are required to build an item, don't rely on the show info list.
I've never relied on the showinfo bill of materials, I noticed early on in manufacturing how wrong it is, and have since relied on the actual values given in factory quotes. But with this small change GC13's formula calculates mineral requirements down to the last unit of tritanium, so I don't even need to have a copy of the BP to figure out exact mineral requirements. FTW. ----------
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.21 13:47:00 -
[71]
Stickeh? ----------
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Agara Nuhto
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Posted - 2006.09.11 13:23:00 -
[72]
great info!
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar ORKS
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Posted - 2006.09.11 22:21:00 -
[73]
Hmm,
In short I suppose that the following would be a rule of thumb guide?:
Small Ammo - No ME research Med Ammo - ME 1 Large Ammo, Frigates, Destroyers - ME 5 Cruisers ~ME 10 PE 5 BC and BS ~ME 20 PE 5-10
Mik
AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite |
Dawnstar
Gallente The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.09.11 22:27:00 -
[74]
Quote:
As GC13 wrote, you have to look up the perfect build amount on the EVE website, rather than showing info on the blueprint. If you do that you'll find that the Base Mineral cost for the Tristan is 20974 Tritanium. If you use the formula provided by GC13 you'll find that at PE1 and ME0 you indeed use 20974 + (20974 * (0.25 - 1) + (20974 * 0.1) = 27265 provided that you round each result within the parentheses.
So where do the numbers on the blueprint come from? Well I actually think it's a screw up by CCP. The only way I can get them to match is by taking the Base Amount and instead of using the above formula, then multiply in series. EDIT: (As I just read GC13 mentions too)
If you take the numbers for Tritanium: 20974 * 1.1 * 1.25 = 28839.25 And at PE1: 20974 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 27685.68
Now according to the Player Guide, the BPO numbers should be the correct ones as the Guide clearly shows a formula that multiplies in series:
Originally by: Player Guide --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1.25 - 0.05 * Production Efficiency Skill Level) * (1 + (Base Waste Factor / (1 + Blueprint Mineral Efficiency Level)) * Base Minerals --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now according to the Player Guide, the BPO numbers should be the correct ones as the Guide clearly shows a formula that multiplies in series:
Perhaps I can shed a bit of light on this and the history of the manufacturing information that is in the Player's Guide.
I wrote the original manufacturing guide several years ago in the very early days of Eve. At that time the numbers on the blueprints were very confusing and didn't very well represent what was actually happening. They also didn't indicate the "perfect" values at the time.
Through a bit of trial and error I derived the formula which you cited from the guide. At the time, it matched up very well. Somewhere along the way I recall there suddenly being some very slight discrepancies between my formula and what was actually happening. It was after a patch, although I'm rather hard pressed at this point to be able to point to which one it was. As a result, the information in my guide became slightly off.
The guide was originally hosted on eve-i. However at some point the images got lost on eve-i (I believe I still have the original guide files, although at this point in time, the blueprint shots no longer match up with what BPs look like today). Due to some RL stuff, I wasn't able to update the guide at the time, so the original guide stood as-is.
When CCP finally put together the manual, my guide got rolled into it, as it was (at the time) still probably the best resource on manufacturing and science, despite having images missing and being over a year nad a couple of major patches old. Someone on the staff put some new images in and edited up the document for the new images. However, when this was done, there was no correction for the discrepancy (since it wasn't in my original guide).
I must admit that I'm rather tickled that people are still citing some of my original formulas and terms (I first coined design and incompetence waste in my guide for example). Its also interesting to see that most of the other guides out there still have much of my original information in them too.
Back in action once again after some time away...
-D |
Kjellerup
Minmatar Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.09.11 22:41:00 -
[75]
Welcome back :)
Guess it's all back to trial and error then. I always thought CCP wrote those guides and that we therefore could assume those to be right, apparently I was wrong, which incidently is quite good to know.
--------------------------- Empyreum Recruitment
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Kayleigh Lothian
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.11 11:57:00 -
[76]
Thank you all very much for the information in this thread. I has been of help to me and my friends :)
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GC13
Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.11 14:20:00 -
[77]
Just a question to everybody else asking if they can verify what I've observed:
Lately, it seems that the display bug with the Perfect value and the calculated factory value is gone (i.e. the Perfect value is adding and not multiplying the wastes). Is anybody else getting this? I aim to verify it myself, but I'm just a tad paranoid since I didn't spot this fix in any sort of patch notes or dev post.
---
New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide. |
Fubar
Amarr Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:05:00 -
[78]
Originally by: GC13 Just a question to everybody else asking if they can verify what I've observed:
Lately, it seems that the display bug with the Perfect value and the calculated factory value is gone (i.e. the Perfect value is adding and not multiplying the wastes). Is anybody else getting this? I aim to verify it myself, but I'm just a tad paranoid since I didn't spot this fix in any sort of patch notes or dev post.
I just verified that you are correct.
The blueprints show info material requirements now match the factory quote.
But a character with less than production efficiency level 5 will still require the same amount of materials that a character with production efficiency level 5 requires.
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IceTea
Gallente Titans - Royal Antwerp Warriors 3rd Front Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 17:35:00 -
[79]
Edited by: IceTea on 23/11/2006 17:43:29 Edited by: IceTea on 23/11/2006 17:41:31 Bringing this back from the nearly deceased. I have noticed some problems with the above formulae.
Where the ME part works without problems: endcost = basecost * ( 1 + ( 0.1 / 1 + ME ) ) (assuming PE5)
BUT the PE skill is where it starts going wrong in my research. PE modifier turns out at endcost = basecost * ( 1.25 - ( 0.05 * PE ) ) (assuming infinite ME) (BTW is exactly the same as 1.25 * (1 - (PE * 0.04)) )
Total equasion: endcost = basecost * ( 1 + ( 0.1 / 1 + ME ) ) * ( 1.25 - ( 0.05 * PE ) )
For the tritanium cost of a megathron this would be: basecost: 7.372.840 (eve-website) 0-ME 0-PE following formula: 10.137.655 0-ME 5-PE following formula: 8.110.124 A char ingame with no PE levels viewing a fresh BPO on the market: You (should be PE0): 9.953.334 Perfect (should be PE5): 8.110.124
If I calculate the difference between the ingame numbers, it amounts to a difference of 22.72727...% OR 4.54545...% per level of PE. (PE0/PE5=1.2272727...)
Conclusion, there appears to be something wrong with the PE skill effect. It might just be the figure given by the blueprint on the market (if anyone wants to donate me a megathron BPO to compare production costs drop me a line) OR me making a booboo in my reasoning?
What gives ??
Scratch this found the correct formula 2 seconds after posting (as usual) as I was decrypting the last 2 posts MEwaste = basecost * ( 0.1 / ( 1 + ME ) ) PEwaste = basecost * ( 0.25 - ( 0.5 * PE ) ) EndCost = basecost + MEwaste + PEwaste
It's not that late is it?? CEO of T-RAW mining & trading. Titans - Royal Antwerp Warriors |
Sirot
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Posted - 2006.12.30 22:02:00 -
[80]
I was just looking over a spreadsheet I made and I discovered that perfect ME is in fact the largest quantity of resource needed on the 'perfect' column of the blueprint divided by 5.5 and then rounded down, not 5 as the guide says. A minor problem since no one really researches the perfect ME, but notable nonetheless, if you're researching to one of the lesser needed materials' perfect ME.
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GC13
Caldari Derelik Trading Company
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Posted - 2006.12.30 22:12:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Sirot I was just looking over a spreadsheet I made and I discovered that perfect ME is in fact the largest quantity of resource needed on the 'perfect' column of the blueprint divided by 5.5 and then rounded down, not 5 as the guide says. A minor problem since no one really researches the perfect ME, but notable nonetheless, if you're researching to one of the lesser needed materials' perfect ME.
And do you want to know why it's the Perfect column divided by 5.5?
Because the Perfect column still has the +10% cost from having a ML of 0.
--
Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog |
Artmedis Valben
Gallente Lobster of Babel
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Posted - 2007.01.01 16:56:00 -
[82]
This is all fine and dandy from a purely manufacturing point of view.
If you want to sell BPCs as well, you will be at a serious disadvantage having just researched your BPO to a breakeven point, as in thinking of lost manufacturing days.
My corporation is primarily a research corp, and this is why we research all our prints far beyond the practical from a manufacturing standpoint. All our prints except the ships and the some of the Revelations BPOs are already at ML100 (0.09% waste), and at PL 100.
This is surely a ridiculous overkill on research, unless your primary motive is to gain a competitive edge over the BPC sellers you compete with. And although a Perfect ML can be as low as ML0 (mining crystals) or ME4 some small ammo types. Just researching everything to ML100 makes it unnecessary for the buyer to examine the material needs of each and every BPO to see where the savings stop, and make sure that my BPCs sell before lesser researched BPCs and thus in the long run (be it 2-3 years) I will be ahead of those who merely research to a manufacturing breakeven point.
And in most cases, a strict manufacturer will be better off buying PERFECT PRINTS from me rather than research his own BPO to a breakeven point. I already provide BPCs for several giving them the edge they need.
With the current waiting lines for ML research, you definately can make a lot of money from BPCs manufacturing while you wait for your BPOs to cook, or you can use the money you make from manufacturing for other stuff like Hulks, Transports and Freighters, and push ahead of the competition that way.
The reason so many collect BPOs is beacuse they like to own them. (Its a stamp collection) And they want them researched well enough so that they have no reason to buy BPCs. It makes them independent, and it doesn't matter that they will never make the investment back from the produce they make from said prints. They will earn much more money from buying max run BPCs on a permanent basis from provider with a well researched collection.
___________________________________________ Selling PERFECT PRINTS of almost all seeded BPOs. Lobster of Babel currently holds 641 of the 649 Tech 1 BPOs seeded. |
Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.01.06 18:28:00 -
[83]
Sticky please. Fantastic material!
Could use some ME tho, because its very long
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EffBee Primus
Caldari DCS Ltd
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Posted - 2007.01.09 18:57:00 -
[84]
As said many times before this is an excellent thread.
However - when I play games like EvE I get uncomfortable when the game analysis reaches this level of detail. (Even though I do it myself!). My problem is that you are playing directly against the programming model coded into the game, rather than playing an economic simulation through the game, if you see what I mean.
However that aside, it seems to me that the critical thing to understand in this thread's arguments is the behaviour of the little 1/(1+X) function. It starts at one for x=0, and asymptotically tends towards zero at x=infinity. The result is a proportion. This proportion doesn't doesn't care if it is applied to a Titan or a Shuttle.
If I am a poor struggling producer just starting out with little funding, few resources and a cheap BPO producing high volume cheap goods, I might research the blueprint to leave me a percent or two of waste. If I am a megawealthy industrialist with massive resources behind me churning out something vastly expensive then I might also research the blueprint to leave me only a percent or two waste. In absolute terms there is a vast, vast, vast difference in isk saved or wasted. But in relative terms the rich man and the poor man are probably wasting and saving the same. Relatively!
I think that things start to go wrong for industrialists in EvE when they start focussing too much on the absolute isk involved in these calculations without relating it to their overall wealth. They then start getting obsesed with the few ISK they are wasting rather than concentrating on the much larger number of isk they are saving. You could argue that it is worth spending all that extra time to optimize your profits - but you could start out and make a lot more isk doing something completely different in the game. It depends whether you are role playing a money grabbing tycoon or an anally retentive stamp collector.
In real life someone on social benefits might spend a morning shopping around the local shops and supermarkets to save a few dollars/pounds/yen or whatever. Similarly someone moderately well off might spend a morning studying online wine merchants to save a couple of hundred before buying his monthly wine supply. Both people are saving amounts of money that are significant to them, buying things that are important to them. The richer man wouldn't dream of spending a morning shopping around to save a little on groceries - it simply wouldn't be effective use of his time. The poorer man can only dream about being able to spend that much money on luxuries. In practice they might both be saving the same proportion of their total income.
In summary I think I suggesting that a fairly stress free way to get your personal PE and ME levels right is to mentally set a sensible level of wastage and research down to that level. Don't forget the Pareto principle.
Antway - as a new industrialist thats the way I need to do it otherwise I will become utterly obsessive about making every blueprint perfect for its own sake, losing track of the fact that a blueprint is a tool in the game to make things to sell and use for fun!
Proud to be a CareBear |
Dektor
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.01.26 13:26:00 -
[85]
For some reason of mine a m8 doesn't get any incompetence waste on some quotes.
He has PE on level 3. But on the two examples below he doesn't have to pay any incompetence waste over (some of) the requirements.
Is this a bug or is this part of the game mechanics and is there a way to determine when this happens?
http://cdlist.mine.nu/dump/nowaste1.jpg http://cdlist.mine.nu/dump/nowaste2.jpg
P.S. He confirmed that the materials mentioned in the quote were the actual materials that were taken from his hanger so its not just a display bug. ------------------ I do not suffer from insanity... I enjoy every minute of it. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.04 03:39:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Dektor For some reason of mine a m8 doesn't get any incompetence waste on some quotes.
He has PE on level 3. But on the two examples below he doesn't have to pay any incompetence waste over (some of) the requirements.
Is this a bug or is this part of the game mechanics and is there a way to determine when this happens?
http://cdlist.mine.nu/dump/nowaste1.jpg http://cdlist.mine.nu/dump/nowaste2.jpg
P.S. He confirmed that the materials mentioned in the quote were the actual materials that were taken from his hanger so its not just a display bug.
No waste occurs if there is no ME waste, as there is not in this case due to the ME level of 20.
Did this get a stickeh yet? --------------------
Verone for President of EVE |
QTC Mineral'Index
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Posted - 2007.03.05 17:22:00 -
[87]
And! there will never be any ME waste on something that can not be refined.
More bumps are always good :)
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Tare Bloodraven
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Posted - 2007.04.04 10:30:00 -
[88]
Ok now that I am totally confused...
Can someone put the correct formula that works in EXCEL that answers the original question...something doesn't work correctly in what I Grok'ed out of this threat.
Please show me the formula to calc the minerals for ME 0 ME10 and ME50 for the kestel
no more, no less...I got the theory, just need the lastest greatest version of the MATH.
This is truely an awesome thread but it's 3:23 am
Thanks Very Much for everyone's efforts involved here.
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Liam Money
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.04 18:55:00 -
[89]
This is one of the most useful posts I think I have ever seen anywhere on this website, you sir are a gentleman and a scholar.
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Talkie Toaster
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:57:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Talkie Toaster on 12/06/2007 12:56:41 ok i THINK this is the right formula for ME that will work in excel
(1.25-0.05*X)*(1+(0.1/(1+Y)))*Z
where:
x = Your PE lvl Y = BPs ME lvl Z = Base minerals
im working on my own ME spreadsheet that will show the mins needed at differnt ME's ona chart so as to be easily visible.
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Hanse Davion
Gallente Jane's Clone Emporium
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:22:00 -
[91]
Sigh, you know the sad part is that right now I got 10 BPO's doing ME50 research. Crap just going to ME20 I could have gone thru most of my BPO's in the time it's going to take me to wait for those 10 to finish.
2005.01.21 05:09:06combatYour Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Priest, wrecking for 533.1 damage. |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:40:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Pwett on 12/06/2007 16:39:41
Originally by: Talkie Toaster Edited by: Talkie Toaster on 12/06/2007 12:56:41 ok i THINK this is the right formula for ME that will work in excel
(1.25-0.05*X)*(1+(0.1/(1+Y)))*Z
where:
x = Your PE lvl Y = BPs ME lvl Z = Base minerals
im working on my own ME spreadsheet that will show the mins needed at differnt ME's ona chart so as to be easily visible.
That would work at PE 5, but you don't want to multiply your PE waste with your ME waste, rather they add togeher. You're also missing out on two important rounds, so your numbers could be off by two in either direction.
It works like this:
PE WASTE: round(Z * (0.25 - (.05 * X))) ME WASTE: round(Z * (baseWasteFactor / (Y + 1))) (note that base waste factor isn't 10% on a few things - drones, probes, etc)
If rounding isn't important: Requirements = Z + ME WASTE + PE WASTE -or- Z + (Z * (0.25 - (.05 * X))) + (Z * (0.10 / (Y + 1)))
Your single formula would be (basically just a miss-sign from the yours) Z(1 + (0.25 - (.05 * X))) + (0.10 / (Y + 1)) _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT Corp.
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Talkie Toaster
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.12 17:17:00 -
[93]
ah ok, well i looked at that, and then looked at it again. but my eyes are still all misty from failing to understand it lol.
all i know is that my spread sheet is complete. with the formula i have used i can put in that something uses 4million trit, get the sum that ME 800,000 is perfect, plug 800,000 in as the BPO ME level and get out the result that i need 4million trit to build at that perfect ME.
it may be inaccurate to a point, but all i am really manufacturing like ammo and ****zle so its just to give me a rough guide hehe.
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Frere
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Posted - 2007.06.13 17:09:00 -
[94]
Fantastic... Good Job and great link to the xcel speedsheet!
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Carpaccio
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Posted - 2007.07.12 11:29:00 -
[95]
Any idea how to make these calculations work with negative ME ?
Ive been trying to figure it out, so far with no success.
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Szczurek
BSX Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.12 12:58:00 -
[96]
I think I figured out the negative ML equation.
Following calculation does not take PE into account, I dont know how PE waste works with t2 bpcs, and considering pretty much noone will do invention without PE5, I'll let it rest.
The regular (positive) ML is calculated as previously stated as:
Y = BPs ML lvl Z = Base minerals
Positive ML WASTE: round(Z * (baseWasteFactor / (Y + 1)))
this is true for ML 0 and above.
For negative ML, the Y factor is 0 while the base waste factor is multiplied by absolute ML value + 1.
Negative ML WASTE: round(Z * (baseWasteFactor * (1+abs(Y)))
We can skip divide by one as it doesnt change result.
Complete and universal equation would be (please note this is not in any particular programming language :) )
ML WASTE: round(Z* (baseWasteFactor * iif(Y<0;1+abs(Y);1))/(1+iif(Y<0;0;Y)))
Any comments welcome, I havent tested it thoroughly, but so far works on couple BPCs I checked.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.07.25 09:44:00 -
[97]
Bump for an excellent guide, this should not be languishing on page 7.
Deserves some glue tbh. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Romar Leonsbane
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Posted - 2007.08.20 04:31:00 -
[98]
This IS the bible for cost effective manufacturing. Definitely deserves some glue!! Kudos!!
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Kambiri Zoltana
Gallente The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:00:00 -
[99]
bumpity bump. Sticky this one ccp
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Barbaro55a
Caldari Os Lobos
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Posted - 2007.10.03 14:18:00 -
[100]
6 months of making stuff and i find out now!
.......................................... We come in peace - My sig and your sig would make cute baby sigs. |
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