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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:23:00 -
[31]
Without implementing an actual group system, the Logistics will stay as useless as they are at the moment.
EVE's combat system is as simple as it can be. And iit is truely inflexible.
But hey, it allows for mass warfare and EW without too much load on the servers.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Xendie
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:37:00 -
[32]
how about adding a area/gang boost effect?
lets say you use a remote repairer, it repairs all the members of the gang that are in the same grid at once with the amount that any other ship would only repair one target.
you can limit the number of repaired target with the logistics skill.
can be boosted by implants or skill in both effect and numbers of people repaired.
range needs to be boosted to atleast 60-80k range repping/boosting.
then the enemy would have to send ships to take out the logistics instead of just popping them right away.
that would add some tactical thinking on battlefields for both defenders and attackers.
today they kinda suck alot due to the fact that if they want to rep anything they need to sit to close to the frontline fighters with a paperbag as defence.
with the increased range and the gang boosting they will still be a prime target but they would also be something you would want in your fleet and want to defend also.
 Originally by: F'nog
This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:47:00 -
[33]
They are worthless, just ignore them. When people tank missions, their tanks dont break.
When people get primaried, they die, no matter whats repairing them.
When in smallish battles, you are targetted first and heavy NOS'd by battleship.
Logistics = utterly worthless, dont bother.
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Xendie
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:51:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Mogrin
They are worthless, just ignore them. When people tank missions, their tanks dont break.
When people get primaried, they die, no matter whats repairing them.
When in smallish battles, you are targetted first and heavy NOS'd by battleship.
Logistics = utterly worthless, dont bother.
discussion was on how to make them better not to state the obvious state they are in atm.
Originally by: F'nog
This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2006.06.22 05:35:00 -
[35]
Ok, how to make logistics ships not suck:
1) Have ALL FOUR logistics ships have the following bonuses:
2000% bonus to Shield Transfer Array range
2000% bonus to Energy Transfer Array range
2000% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System range
2000% bonus to Tracking Link range
90% reduction in Shield Transfer Array capacitor use
90% reduction in Energy Transfer Array capacitor use
90% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use
25% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency
2) 8 hi slots, 8 mid slots, 8 low slots
Why would they need to be this much more powerful you might ask?
Because:
THEY DO **** DAMAGE
Their role is to support many, and they get 4 hi slots to support... many?
They get tracking links, again, to support others. We will assume they will intend to support many, so we will give them the maximum amount of slots to do so with.
Their mids are supposed to be used for tracking links, the lows need to be freed and used for cap relays, a tank, and whatever else.
Even with all this, they'd probably still be completely worthless though. When you mission, your tank usually doesn't break. In a small skirmish battle, you'll be targeted and nos'd. In fleet combat you cant do anything to save a primary target.
Its just that what they can do might be powerful in some situations, like missioning level 4 missions with tech 1 CRUISERS, but in practical applications they are 1) unneeded and 2) you will help more by bringing a BS/BC and blowing stuff up.
Utterly worthless and it almost doesnt matter what their stats are, the role is borked.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.22 07:08:00 -
[36]
^^ The ultimate plex tank 
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2006.06.22 09:51:00 -
[37]
There's nothing wrong with support cruisers today, the problem is that they are not needed. They're basically like sunglasses which lets you read a book that is scrolling in a small display on either glass. Wickedly cool, but utterly useless.
Griefing is to ruin a friendly game, which Eve is not. |
Stradivarious
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Posted - 2006.06.22 12:06:00 -
[38]
Keep in mind that not all logistics ships are designed to be "medics" as you put it. The Scimitar for example, yes it does get the standard range bonus that logistics cruisers get, it's strong point however is the remote tracking link bonus.... If you haven't seen it in action, you really need to... If I'm in my tempest or Machariel, I always have my alt in her scimmie nearby... And if you see me in my mach, you better get your transversal over 4500, otherwise I *will* hit you, and hard. 
As for changing them, yeah they are a little weak defensively, but if you bump up their defense, I know a LOT of people are going to start screaming... mainly people I shoot at :p I'll probably scream as well as you will drive the demand up to other tech 2 ship levels and make the price insane... Leave em be imo, each race has it's own benefit, they are weak for a reason.
If you're worried about being primary, fit a damn cloak and don't let the enemy scouts see you(on scanner either, if theres a hostile in system period and you aren't moving with the fleet, stay cloaked), they aren't going to have time to check ship types in the middle of a fleet fight and cruisers will be low priority. If you must go within combat range, stay as far away from the fight as your range bonuses will let you.
I like to think of myself as the chlorine in the gene pool.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2006.06.22 12:17:00 -
[39]
The whole "it'll get called as primary" I've always thought is way overrated. The only way that happens is if you have perfect intel as to who is flying it before the fight starts otherwise the opposing fleet command will invariably just call the scorps as primary and work his way down. Clearly stated if they do not know it is there before they warp in it will not get called as primary.
That said you can never expect them to invulnerable or else everyone will fly them, as soon as CCP succeed in pulling fleet combat closer together then the problem will resolve itself.
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Solje Mobar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:49:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
That said you can never expect them to invulnerable or else everyone will fly them
The problem is not that people wants logistic ships to be invulnerable, the problem is you can't fit defesenses in a logistic ship _AT_ALL_ (well if you plan to do something worth for your gang anyway).
So far I can only speak about pve ... 1 strayed rat in the oposing fleet and BOOOOM! I know this for good in an osprey. Looking at the capabilities of the basilisk doesnt seem to be much of an improvement.
I dont want to be able to tank 3 battleships, I just want to be able to survive a bit while my gang members try to assist me, which is not an option these days (I can feel myself lucky if I could warp out with half armor).
Fix the UI, fix the class and give them more low slots / high slots so these ships can fit defense capabilities.
P.S.: And no, people wouldnt use them as they should have their damage/EW stuff penalized greatly as has been suggested before (if not completely), that way nobody would even consider using these ships for anything else than "healing".
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Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:02:00 -
[41]
the easiest fix for logistics doesn't need to change the ships at all.
Change the modules.
1) Make all logistics modules targetless. When you click on them, they give you the crosshair icon and the next ship you click on becomes the target for the logisitic modules. No locking needed. (if you have a lock, you still get the crosshairs and can choose a ship you don't have a lock on, or one you do)
2) Make all logistics modules empire safe. Any target, anywhere. Who's is going to be upset that you cap boosted them?
3) 50% boost to range of all logistic modules.
4) If the logistics ship is target jammed, it would be blocked from using it's logistics modules still. Even thought the modules don't need a lock to work. The reason for this should be obvious.
If this was implemented, it would allow gang leader, and logisitic ships to change targets and modules around fast enough to keep up with the insane speed of combat.
I also think that the fix for "primary" is going to come from logistics. Make a module that links several ships together, feeding sheilds from all to one as needed. Or something like that.
___________________________________________
The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
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MI Koshkin
The Protectorate Corporation
Pax Familia
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Posted - 2006.10.27 04:26:00 -
[42]
Sadly all these threads seem to reach the same conclusions. The first is that the interface has to change. Inter-gang locks and inability to view cap are two of the big problems. The second is that a lot of us flying logistics can live with their abilities in PVE. The third is that they really need something done for PVP. It is sad that an entire class of ships continues to be complete ignored while their is nearly universal agreement on what most of the problems are 
Kosh
The Protectorate |
Encad Briht
Minmatar
United Univers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 05:14:00 -
[43]
1. Nice Necro
2. Everything dies within a blob
3. predefined targetting 4tw
4. They are fine as they are
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Member of UU : Diplomatic Corps |
Arlenik Emmanouelik
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Posted - 2006.10.27 06:16:00 -
[44]
There is nothing really wrong with logistic ships, however, I think they might need a little boost to better perform their roles. What seems to me to be the problem are the pilots that fly them. You aren't really suppose to bring a logistic ship into battle.
If you are flying a logistic ship, depending on the circumstance and the size of the battle, you either wait for battle to start then warp in when needed and do you job and then warp out. Or, wait in a safe spot and have your gang mates warp to you while you do your job, and then they warp back out.
If you are a logistic pilot and have been called primary, you have failed. A battleship will do a better job when taking a logistic role during battle, even if called primary.
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Marlsia
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:55:00 -
[45]
I think the next generation of logistics need is:
15-20% increase in resists (Per Logistics Level)
20-30% increase in range (Per Logistics Level)
15-20% 10% increase in Cap Recharge rate (Per Logistics Level)
10-15% reduction in sig rad (Per Logistics Level)
20% better agility (Per Logistics Level)
50% increase in drone range
as a penalty
Can fit no offensive modules
Can not use offensive drones only Logistics drones
Require:
L5 in logistics
L5 in Shield/Armour Transfer
L5 in Cap Recharge skill (Cant remember name)
L5 in Cap Size/Volume (Again cant remember skill)
L5 in Drone range skill
This would mean the Logistics is not the "I WIN" button but is a much improved variant, it would require some dedicated training.
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Marlsia
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:12:00 -
[46]
Is there anything in Kali that gives us Logistics pilots a boost?
Have the 'named' Large Shield Transfers been seeded. Will the BPO for T2 Large Shield Transfers be distributed?
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Constantine Arcanum
Gallente
IMPERIAL SENATE
Pure.
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:16:00 -
[47]
To be honest it is better to keep em at an SS, then after a fight people can warp there and be remoted repaired... kind of like a cheap carrier.
But yes I agree that they need to be more useful in real combat.
I helped - Cortes
What a shiny and lovely place here - Eshtir
Well lets make it a party atleast :D -Xorus
RAWWWR!11!!1!2 SIG HIJACK!!11!1
I found it first, get orrrfff moiiii laaannnd - Cortes |
dennyreborn
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:34:00 -
[48]
how about this. lets allow Logistics ships to get under a allied battleship or a CAP ships shields.
Jsut like a POS.
1. this way a Logistic ship now has a whole lot of either BS or CAP ship shield to protect it.
2. shield tanking might become slightly more common then it is now.
No need to do mass changes jsut allow them to get under a allies shield and do thier magic from there.
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Aeco Feife
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:29:00 -
[49]
My thoughts:
Mostly repeated from a discussion in Ideas section, but here you go:
CanÆt mimic the ôdonÆt kill medicsö principle from RL, so ought to do something defensive to give them time to do their job to some extent.
CanÆt give them huge personal defenses, or that would imbalance all PVE.
I am biased against range, think EVE has gone too far in that direction already (snipers).
Shield-sharing makes sense, but I think it would be messy and exploitable.
Idea (not entirely new): MASH bubbles.
Droppable short-range shield (probe) generator launched from a logistics ship-only launcher. Maybe 5km radius. Ships inside could not target anything outside, similar to POS. Generator only operates while logistics is motionless (stays within 1500m).
Rationale: Battles could take longer with an effective support class. Ceptors or destroyers would make for good cavalry to take out the medic, but snipers couldnÆt do it.
Logistics could operate as they are now until dropping a MASH probe, then can only target/buff friendlies in close. Logistics wouldnÆt instantly be primary (for long) because they could go into MASH mode. Probable strategy is to fire on logistic, get them to drop generator, finish off rest of the gang, and then go back to logistic and ôpatientsö.
Ships outside could target and fire on the logistics ship to wear down the shield generator (too much trouble to have to target the probe itself), but the generator should produce 1.5 - 3x shields of a BS. All defense, no offense.
The same could be accomplished with a specific mod (on the lines of the dread siege mod), but I think I like it better if each use was reasonably expensive.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:52:00 -
[50]
Actually, I like the area effect approach. Make remote energy, armor, etc not require a lock on anyone but rather make it an area effect that every one in the new 10 player gangs (squadron I think) get. That would justifiy the high costs cap wise of remotes. I think the remotes should also affect the ship that is using them.
Then on logistic ships, give them a cap reduction bonus and a range bonus.
The idea of having a either mini bubble shield or massive 500%+ increase in armor and shields also sounds pretty good as long as they have to go into a "repair mode" that is just like the "siege mode" for dreads for them to use the remote modules. This would let them live long enough to be effective, yet if they are on the lossing side, they cannot just run away.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Mikal Drey
Angels and Demons
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:09:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 27/10/2006 21:10:37
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 27/10/2006 21:10:13
hey hey
Posted a while ago about logistics ship and theres some okish ideas here already.
after some good fittings and long drawn out flight tests I think ive decided that they are actually pretty well ..... decent.
some quick reations to thread bits and bobs.
Primary : anything called primary is kablamo - well said Jenny.
Neverdie CAP : Actually i think al logistics cuiser can run their specific option (shields - scimitar etc.) to 100% effectiveness. and dependent on skills of the pilot you can grab some insane ammounts of transfer. even my test alt in a ruppy could remote rep me through L4 mission and indefinatly too in my Scimitar setup i can run a very effective shield transfer indefinatly.
Range : spot on imho small gang warfare or fleet i think their current repar ranges are more than ok and any capable pilot will be aligned and ready to bug out in seconds. (not sure if the new stabs will affect their range)
Resists : it was pointed out in a thread i posted about them that if i looked closer i could see their tank potential.. yep i looked closer :) adding TII style resists would make them a bugger and a half to kill.
I would however love for them to have drone bays even if the bays were locked to only having logistical drones.
NB. HK id love to see those graphs* you mentioned and a possible linky to your thread about logistics ive read a few and agree that logistics eed some love but tbh only a little :)
*such a nub
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