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"the number 2 thing after insta-jump BMs that players want changed."

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DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:01:00 - [61] Originally by: Astrum Ludus Players want instas changed? Best I remember last time a change was suggested there was uproar and the idea quietly sunk, as it should have done. My point of view is, if you want to spend the time making them or the hours copying them or millions of isk buying them then so be it, without them this game would consist of 50% Intys MWD'ing to gates and 50% Megathrons sniping at said Intys and the poor buggers forced to fly their freighters 13kms at 40m/s. Thats a nice delusion. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Jon Hawkes	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:03:00 - [62] Instas are fine as they are, but I would like to see a change so that nobody could copy them. If you want to insta to gates, make the BMs yourself or fly with a gang leader who has them. Simple and encourages more teamwork...
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Jon Hawkes Instas are fine as they are, but I would like to see a change so that nobody could copy them. If you want to insta to gates, make the BMs yourself or fly with a gang leader who has them. Simple and encourages more teamwork... I could live with that. I mostly use self-made instas in any case.
Regenald Barclay	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:30:00 - [64] I have a radical solution (and it might just kill all birds with 1 stone). If I've missed an obvious problem, please let me know. How about you get rid of instas, but change the gates so that the jump field they produce throws off peoples targeting? E.g. Jump gates produce interference that extends out to 50km. So if you are outside this field (the gankers), then your targeting is off 50% of the time. If you are inside it, then your targeting is off 10-20% of the time. This would still allow people to camp gates, but at a much closer range if they want to hit anything (and they can then be engaged if you has escorts). It doesn't fix the increase in travel time, so maybe allow warp to 5-8km. Still gives people who want to guard a gate time to kill stuff (or webb it etc). Does that make sense? (I just thought of this, so it's not a refined idea...)
Fal'Tanarr	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Quote: - Interdictors - Mobile Warp Disruptors - Sensor boosters + warpjammers on other side of gate The fix is here already, use it. How are you suppose to use mobile warp disruptors in empire smartass? And currently due to how targetting works, there is no chance to warp disrupt a Interceptor because of its fast agility. I offer three solutions and you find a problem with one of them, in empire no less. Who's the smartass I wonder If you have a problem with Interceptors having high agility I suggest you take it up in another thread. Well boo f'n hoo you can't kill every ship out there in empire that comes under your nose.
Clementina	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:49:00 - [66] Changing Instas is a very bad idea. If Instas are removed, the only practical ships to fly in 0.0 alone are frigates, interdictors, mwd destroyers, mwd cruisers, macharials, and cynofield jumping vessels. Nothing else could evade the camps reliably. Instas also are used to mine, travel, fight and, run; they permeate the lives of low-sec and 0.0 dwellers. Changing them, will change the entire game for most of the player base, nerfing almost everyone. Interestingly enough, it dosn't really nerf the travel speeds of things that are supposed to be slow. a fleet of 30 BS is supposed to be significiently slower then 1 interceptor. However removing instas does not necessasary make this the case. the 30 BS, can get a pilot in an interceptor and use the warp to gang member at 15 to travel like on instas. Even without instas, BSes can move as fast as inties (which some argue as wrong), and a blob can move almost as fast as an individual interceptor (which is wrong)
ZzeusS	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:01:00 - [67] Ok, how about this: Have Autopilot warp to 5k or even 0k. If all gates are working then everyone is happy. Let pirates temporarily disable gates by shooting them a ton. Not soloable. Have system message broadcast that the gate is under attack. Perhaps limit it to once every 24h. Pirates can keep gates closed if they put in the resources. Anti-Pirates can go protect the gates if they want. Carebears can zip along merrily if the gates are working.
Anglyson	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Avant Garde Just make warp to 0km for gate travel it'll make traveling faster. If there are gate campers that want to get you they can have ago on the other side I can't see a problem using this method but i'm sure someone will enlighten me It isn't only about campers. There are other aspects to this game other than just getting ganked. what are they then?
Tuang Pao	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:31:00 - [69] My quixotic spitting in the wind on this topic: Do away with the need for insta-BMs to jump gates by allowing all jumps to gates to land 0 meters from the gate by default. Most of combat and ganking at a gate occurs at the gate exit where large, slow ships are scrambled and locked while aligning for the next warp target. Gate combat is less frequent at the entrance of jumpgates, so there will be little change to existing practices while doing away with thousands of unnecessary BMs in the database. Otherwise BMs will function as currently designed so there will be no impact on safe spotting, tacticals and scram undocking. This compromise provides the best cost vs. benefit to the existing game system.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:34:00 - [70] Originally by: Anglyson Originally by: Avon Originally by: Avant Garde Just make warp to 0km for gate travel it'll make traveling faster. If there are gate campers that want to get you they can have ago on the other side I can't see a problem using this method but i'm sure someone will enlighten me It isn't only about campers. There are other aspects to this game other than just getting ganked. what are they then? Trading?

Wache Eisen	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:41:00 - [71] Edited by: Wache Eisen on 09/06/2006 16:42:16 "How are you suppose to use mobile warp disruptors in empire smartass?" -Admiral IceBlock lol,..not arguing who is right or wrong here,..but this line really *****ed me up this morning, just by it's delivery. thanks for the laugh, Ice. wtf,..I cant say cr4ck3d me up? stupid filter.
Korvus	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:42:00 - [72] So when we say removal of insta jump BMs, what do they mean? A deadzone arround gates where BMs cant be made therfore removing GTG instas? For station instas as well? Or a removal of BMs all together? If they remove BMs all together, goodbye safespots. See you later scan probes (who needs em if no safespots?)No more BMing your mining cans, POS assaults just got logistically trickier requiring multiple CovOps to set warpin targets for dreads and support fleet. I like the module idea. I like the skill based idea as well ( of course its a timesink, the whole game is isnt it? Show me one player who doesnt have at least one of the basic skills learned (i.e. SpaCom,Eng,Elec,Mech,Ind,Sci, etc.) so it is just one more foundational skill to add to that list) And as for fleet movement, like the guy above said; use a fast mover (pref 2) to set warpto points for the fleet if you dont want the module or have the skills. So get rid of instajumping if it helps the severs, just dont get rid of all BMs (safespots, belts, POS, etc)
Y'laaris Brood	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:52:00 - [73] Why do people keep suggesting a 30km dead zone around gates? I fail to see how that will prevent instas... I'll just set mine 113km behind the gate and still land spot on with warp to 100k...
Jet Collins	Posted - 2006.06.09 17:13:00 - [74] Originally by: Y'laaris Brood Why do people keep suggesting a 30km dead zone around gates? I fail to see how that will prevent instas... I'll just set mine 113km behind the gate and still land spot on with warp to 100k... Shuuu don't say anything just make them think that it will work and make them happy. Think about how funny it will be when they petition that a guy escaped his gate camp because he landed ontop if the gate and jumped to the next ssystem.. Ahhhh pooor baby
Arte	Posted - 2006.06.09 17:18:00 - [75] It was quite a while back but someone proposed an idea which recieved a variety of responses but seemed the most balanced idea so far. In short, make the insta side of navigation module based. One module for warping faster, with a skill to support it to make it more effective. (already in game, nano-fibres, evasive manouevering). Another module that allows you to arrive at your destination more accurately which is also supported by a skill to improve efficiency. I think the idea was that the module was a high slot so it wouldn't affect tanks but would affect combat power, but it also wouldn't be a turret slot item, in that it could be fitted by indies. Making the skill to support it with better versions of the module, aid better travelling times but don't make it a get-out-of-gatecamps-free card. This would be better than making the whole system skill based as that would be trained up immediatley by anyone who could do it, (depending on rank) and then we'd effectively be in a situation where everyone had the ability to warp to insta-accurate distances from gates. I'm sure there would need to be many adjustments to the idea but it would seem fair in that everyone could fit for fast travelling if they so wished, (except freighters. they will still stay as slow as slugs. ) but at possibly some cost to combat efficiency...
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.09 17:32:00 - [76] Originally by: Arte It was quite a while back but someone proposed an idea which recieved a variety of responses but seemed the most balanced idea so far. In short, make the insta side of navigation module based. One module for warping faster, with a skill to support it to make it more effective. (already in game, nano-fibres, evasive manouevering). Another module that allows you to arrive at your destination more accurately which is also supported by a skill to improve efficiency. I think the idea was that the module was a high slot so it wouldn't affect tanks but would affect combat power, but it also wouldn't be a turret slot item, in that it could be fitted by indies. Making the skill to support it with better versions of the module, aid better travelling times but don't make it a get-out-of-gatecamps-free card. This would be better than making the whole system skill based as that would be trained up immediatley by anyone who could do it, (depending on rank) and then we'd effectively be in a situation where everyone had the ability to warp to insta-accurate distances from gates. I'm sure there would need to be many adjustments to the idea but it would seem fair in that everyone could fit for fast travelling if they so wished, (except freighters. they will still stay as slow as slugs. ) but at possibly some cost to combat efficiency... Good ideas, but the mods still need to be lo-slot so a compromise has to be made between cargo / nano's / wcs / overdrives etc. You have to balance it for combat and non-combat aspects of instas. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Arte	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Avon Good ideas, but the mods still need to be lo-slot so a compromise has to be made between cargo / nano's / wcs / overdrives etc. You have to balance it for combat and non-combat aspects of instas. Agreed. I think all those kind of issues are just semantics that would be worked out by the devs. Need to be careful that ships with more lo-slots aren't advantaged too much that they can fit for insta travel and no-one can catch them. Imagine an armagedoon fitted with 3wcs, 3 nanos and 2 of the warp navigation module? I guess that fitting issues would prevent it but you can see the problems already. Apart from this part of balancing, I can't see a negative side to it really. Sure someone will find them though!
Zaldiri	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:25:00 - [78] I'll bring up another module which I think avon originally proposed. A mod which throws you 15km to the oppersite side of the object you warp to. The point being to allow groups fast movment by using scount to act as a mobile insta BM. This encourages grouping and more roles in fleets. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:29:00 - [79] Originally by: Zaldiri I'll bring up another module which I think avon originally proposed. A mod which throws you 15km to the oppersite side of the object you warp to. The point being to allow groups fast movment by using scount to act as a mobile insta BM. This encourages grouping and more roles in fleets. Not one of mine .. but worth considering. I always advocating warping to scouts, but I assumed the scouts would get in to position under their own steam. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nev Clavain	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:29:00 - [80] If you want to have this new warp module affect upon how many weapons you fit - then stick it in lowsloys as suggested and make a small, medium, and large version with large powergrid and/or cpu requirements like armor reps\cap boosters. Might work I suppose, the balance really does need to be spot on though - because instas, intended or not, have become essential to most people's activities.

Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:34:00 - [81] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 09/06/2006 18:34:47 Everybody has insta's anyway. Just let people warp onto the gate. I used to be pro-insta, but after trying to copy several regions this week I'm thinking about ending my life.
Nev Clavain	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:37:00 - [82] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 09/06/2006 18:34:47 Everybody has insta's anyway. Just let people warp onto the gate. I used to be pro-insta, but after trying to copy several regions this week I'm thinking about ending my life. That could work as well, and as for travel time - just make bigger ships alot slower in warp.
Valea Silpha	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:41:00 - [83] The biggest problem with removing instas, either so everyone has to warp to 15, or everyone warps to 0, is that the first makes camping in empire absolutely evil. The second makes camping of any sort pretty impossible. Im happy with instas as they are. If you want to go somewhere dodgey take instas, and you get a reasonable amount of safety. Fail to prepare and you run the risk. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Kitti Bronwynn	Posted - 2006.06.09 18:44:00 - [84] I am very new to this game, so maybe I'm completely off-base asking this question, but I'll throw it out anyway. It sounds like most, if not all, pvp piracy takes place in the immediate area around gates, with a small group of pirates sniping people as they leave/approach the gate. If something comes through that they're not sure they can handle, they just jump to a safe spot. Is this really the best thing for the game, for anyone? From what I gather there isn't a whole lot of skill involved on either side. Either the traveller has an insta and makes it through safely, or they don't or the pirates somehow stop them and the traveller dies. No real battles, just short and brutal gankings. Would it not be better to encourage piracy to happen elsewhere in systems? Around asteroids, between gates, near stations, etc. Making the pirates come to miners/haulers can even the odds a bit. It requires more skill on either sides part, the pirates have to stalk their prey and the prey is able to try and confuse them, scramble their sensor, have guards nearby, whatever. I don't know how interdictors work, but what if they affected say a 30km radius sphere. Anyone who passes through while in warp is stopped dead in their tracks, and it prevents anyone from warping out. It scrambles the subspace fields or whatnot, so that after the module is activated theres no warping at all for 60 seconds, even if the pirates want to disable it. This could make things interesting. First of all, it would catch everything that came through, which would then be forced to try and deal with the interdicting ship (ie, blow it up), which even once that happens they're stuck there for 60 seconds or until they exit the sphere effect. It would also make this riskier for the pirates, since they also cannot warp away or risk losing thier interdictor. If they just happen to catch a group of 6 BS ... Anyway, just to restate my orginal question: would it be better overall (more fun) if piracy was moved away from gates and became more dynamic elsewhere in the system?
Arte	Posted - 2006.06.09 19:01:00 - [85] Originally by: Valea Silpha ...Im happy with instas as they are. If you want to go somewhere dodgey take instas, and you get a reasonable amount of safety. Fail to prepare and you run the risk. Instas as they are, are fine and great and that isn't the issue in so far as they do what they're intended for, agree with them or not. The issue is that they are database intensive and as such, create lag. If we can find a workable alternative to that, without making it too easy or too hard to travel the way we can now, then we can reduce this lag creating aspect of the game. If/when the change happens, then it has to address this problem, or there is little/no point in making the change.
MellaRinn	Posted - 2006.06.09 19:14:00 - [86] Originally by: DOGNOSH hmmm remove instas ? in that case to make it fair remove scams and piracy and no gate camping and all be carebears and . . . leave it be ffs,game is just fine you worried about not being able to catch that little fishy wishy that turned up in your system? well try harder QFT, instas are fine. They take lots of money OR time OR both to make/get. That is enough of a price already... Ishkur FTW
Erloas	Posted - 2006.06.09 19:32:00 - [87] Over the next couple of days I have several ships to move about 40 jumps. Right now I have all but the first 10 or so empire jumps BMed out and I'm still dreading that huge annoying timesink that is travel. If I had to make those runs without BMs I would probably just cancel my account and find something else to do. Because there will only be 1 of 2 things that could happen. I either spend several hours sitting infront of my screen with pretty much nothing at all happening just to go one way just to start over again. Or I would make it part of the way and get killed and loose most of what I have. Neither option sounds good to me, and doesn't seem to fit into the idea of "entertainment" that games are supposed to be. Also it would pretty much kill any major fleet fights. Because most fleet BSs aren't fit for quick travel, and if you are invading an enemies territory its not likely that they will let you dock at their station real quick to change out of your travel setup. Since you can't take a POS out with just ceptors it would turn any major attack into a 2 day event, one day for travel and the next day for the combat.
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.06.09 21:05:00 - [88] Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2006.06.09 21:29:00 - [89] All I know is there is very little combat in empire based wars when both sides have instas. The dock-undock game is more annoying in my opinion =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.09 22:25:00 - [90] Originally by: Valea Silpha The biggest problem with removing instas, either so everyone has to warp to 15, or everyone warps to 0, is that the first makes camping in empire absolutely evil. The second makes camping of any sort pretty impossible. Im happy with instas as they are. If you want to go somewhere dodgey take instas, and you get a reasonable amount of safety. Fail to prepare and you run the risk. Allowing people warp to the gate won't change anything. If you want to camp in empire you have to catch people when they JUMP IN. That's how it is now, and that's how it would be if you could warp to the gate. The only people that you catch slow boating to gates are noobs, or people far away from home. I don't get nearly enough kills from this to make me want to support the insta hell that we are in. Inner****ers should also help with catching people in 0.0 if you need to grab them on the gate they are warping too.



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