Originally by: Keta Min

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Originally by: Laboratus

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Originally by: Cown

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Fitting 2 ECCM to become immune? I dont think so... we tryed it doesn't work.

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Try it like this. Someone starts to jam you with multiple mods. At some point he will succeed in a jam. Click ECCM. This will prolly brake the jam. Lock target. If it doesn't work, click the other ECCM. Lock target. You should have a pretty good chance at this point of not being jammed, as the chance of being jammed per cycle is somewhere around 5 to 20% depending on ship etc ofcourse.

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why would i do that if i can fit ECM too and jam him first instead? and this is exactly what happens. oh wait that's the definition of an overpowered module, the best counter to it is using it yourself.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/06/2006 14:06:17
ECM has decreased the ability gap between genuinely resourceful pvp'ers and people with lots of mid slots.

Where as intelligence and patience once paid off if you were completely outnumbered it doesn't anymore because if you bring less people you dont get to shoot.

Obviously it isn't quite as absolute as this but its certainly blurred the distinction.

This is the reason it has to change.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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the ecm fix needs to come fast, its utterly retarded atm

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Originally by: Gronsak

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a few people i know have quit over this, and lots more say if this situation isnt fixed they will quit since they dont like playing a game where chance is suck a big part of winning!

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Quit over jamming?

*****ing about a 5% chance ot jam?


Jeez, relax. The system is ok, I think the percentage to jam should be lowered across the board, and the ECCM modules made more effective. That should balance it out nicely.


In the mean time, fit ECCM and fit/bring friends with, ECM to counter the ECM.

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Originally by: Jimmy Chow

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I like the current ECM system overall but I think that there could be a couple of tweaks.

* Boost ECCM strenght a little say 20% overall

* Make Ship Sized ECM modules. Just like ECM drones have ECM strength of 1, a frigate ECM should have less ECM strength (and range) than a Cruiser which should have less then a BS one. (I think this was stated earlier by someone. You could also beef the cap requiremetns up so that ECM on smaller - non EW ships would be a lot harder.

I have found that if I fit one low and one mid slot ECCM I have fairly good resistances to ECM.

FOF missles can also counter ECM for you missle users.

So sure, you are out solo and some frigate jams you and it drives you nuts. I can see that but that is part of the game and there are plenty of modules and setups (and strategy!) that allow you to counter ECM.

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Originally by: maGz

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Can't be arsed to read through the thread although it seems like a very good discussion...

I personally think ECM should be made much more reliant on ship-bonuses ie. to really get any efficiency out of ECM-modules you need to use the appropriate ship.

As things currently stand, everyone and their uncle fits ECM as the chance of jamming the target is big enough to justify the use of a mid-slot for it. If ECM-modules were much more reliant on ship-bonuses, less ECM would be used on other ships than dedicated ECM-boats due to it simply not being worth fitting it on any other type of ship...

I can't be arsed to write anymore, but maybe I'll edit later on

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Originally by: Hins

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FoF-Missiles
Annyone know if they work against ECM?

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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Originally by: Mangold

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ECM is fine.

ECCM could do with a slight boost.

I think the "new" system is much better than the old one. With the chance based jamming you still have a chance to lock and fire.

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yeah, exactly. EW is as valid as guns and missiles. Some ppl just whine cause they dont like Ewar. And if ECCM got a boost it be more fair, but again ppl dont want to gimp their uber tanks with uber damage, for EW. Well they have to.

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Originally by: Laboratus

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ECM is just fine at the moment. It's the only EW that works well at short ranges, maybe it should be oriented more into that role (Braking that lock, disabling that scrambler and making you get away).
What needs to be changed is ECCM. It is nowhere powerful enough with the current system. And perhaps a 10% nerf on Multispec strength. At the moment it works to all races with equal power, and thus requires no prior knowledge/ intel on what you are going to go against. And as such is a little bit out of line with the "prepare to fight or lose your ship" mentality I like so much in this game...

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Originally by: Padaxes

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There is nothing right with the current system, Having a random system is just a joke.

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Originally by: General Meridus

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The system blows. Its just simply no fun. You could remove the entire thing from the game, and the game would be better for it.

If I'm running in a small gang, or solo and get jumped by a gank; I want a fighting chance. Yeah, I may go down in flames, but I'll at least take a couple with me. Now, doesn't happen. Perma jammed. Can't do nothing but die. Right now camps can pretty much swallow and destroy any ship that comes through without losses. Big, small, doesn't matter, they'll never get a lock.

No amount of skill, experience, or ship set up will make a difference. The only counter to an ECM gank is to log. I simply would enjoy being able to fight.

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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Edited by: Jim Raynor on 13/06/2006 09:24:20
when you see a scorpion, you should be worried about jamming

when you see a raven, you really shouldnt.. but honestly the raven is a better ECM platform then the scorpion now, it can jam almost as well and has like four times the firepower, thanks to the way ECM works now a raven is quite a deadly EW ship

they need to nerf the **** out of all ECM and then increase the bonuses on ECM ships like the scorp and rook and falcon, ect ect

i see people fitting ECM on everything now, even armageddons, honestly should armageddons be a real ECM threat? they can be, which is pretty pathetic

and then there is the dominix, that would require a whole new thread

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Originally by: Meathook

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Personally, i would not change the current ecm system, but boost eccm accordingly.

The thing is, being the chance based system it is, it might just be me, but i have seen both sides of the coin happening in really odd situations: it either sucks beyond comparison, or it works in a godlike manner. I won't even mention the addition of ew drones, if somebody uses them as well...

The main change for eccm modules i'd introduce would be to give them the ability to interrupt the jamming cycle as some others have already suggested. Not just reduce it, but directly interrupt it so you can lock again, afterall some fittings include multiple jammers, and you got to factor relocking time, or we'd be in the same loop again. Of course, it would also need to have a short cycle. Not too small as to make it overpowered, but certainly smaller than the jammers they are supposed to counter.

Of course this would possibly not solve everything 100%, but hey, it's nice to at least know you may have a chance to fire back. As it is atm in some given situations, ecm+web+scrambler+useless eccm as they are now= i'll go get me a drink while my clone reactivates

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Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker

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ECM cant be that bad if a Tech 1 ship uses it to gain an advantage over tech 2 then thats how its ment to work, just cause you dropped 300mil on a HAC doesnt mean a guy in a 4mil cruiser should be easy money to you if he comes prepaired.

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Originally by: Cruz

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My ECM Solution

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Originally by: Cruz

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Originally by: Cown

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Originally by: Cruz

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My ECM Solution

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3/4 jam cycles is a huge amount of time to kill almost any ship.. so it would have no effect at all. Anyone who get 60 secs of shooting time before another is destined to win.

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Reducing jamming time to 5 or so seconds then? Jamming would still be chanced base ontop of having that buffer.

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Originally by: wierchas noobhunter

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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Edited by: Jim Raynor on 13/06/2006 09:24:20
when you see a scorpion, you should be worried about jamming

when you see a raven, you really shouldnt.. but honestly the raven is a better ECM platform then the scorpion now, it can jam almost as well and has like four times the firepower, thanks to the way ECM works now a raven is quite a deadly EW ship

they need to nerf the **** out of all ECM and then increase the bonuses on ECM ships like the scorp and rook and falcon, ect ect

i see people fitting ECM on everything now, even armageddons, honestly should armageddons be a real ECM threat? they can be, which is pretty pathetic

and then there is the dominix, that would require a whole new thread

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when you see a scorpion, you should be worried about jamming

when you see a rifter, you really shouldnt

well tbh ecm is worst think in eve atm
if u say its fine u are just dumb blober who newer fighted 1x1 tbh ecm now totaly kills 1x1 in eve
this game is becoming teh bobastic

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Originally by: Drakir Everborn

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Edited by: Drakir Everborn on 16/06/2006 01:36:39
Edited by: Drakir Everborn on 16/06/2006 01:35:09
ECM is way too random; it being powerful should not be a problem, it would only mean the effective counter would be used much. But the randomness truly breaks any kind of balance. Also, in the case of ECM, the counter isn't very effective!

...

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Originally by: Drakir Everborn

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Originally by: Maya Rkell

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Drakir,

I'm not keen on the "depleting sensor strenght" ideas. Basically, it's going to be too slow to make a difference in the majority of engagements, and it gives guaranteed windows of engagement after it is over. That tends to spell bad things for the jamming ship.

I think insta-working EW is one of the things which is needed to break up the all-on-one gank nature of fleet combat as well.

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You are probably right, and if you are, my solution simply won't work. It's not surprising really, considering how little experience I have with PVP.

I guess there's nothing more I can say.

Originally by: Laboratorus

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just that critical bad luck 1 out of 5

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This is actaully what I concieve as the problem. How can you support a system which occasionally gives combatants "auto-wins" without using hardly any skill? Luck should be a factor in combat, but it should never decide the outcome.

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Originally by: Hydrogen

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Originally by: MysticNZ

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Originally by: Hydrogen

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Edited by: Hydrogen on 17/06/2006 20:37:52

Originally by: Cown

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Yeah exactly everyone can be lucky, but ECM is just plain stupid.. it's too random, which makes people a bit too lucky in my opinion.

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talking about hard facts. Are you able to backup such a statement with numbers?

"too random", "too lucky", "..." may I suggest a class in statistics? You Sir really need it or stop talking about stuff you got no clue about.

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There are many posts about the numbers in other threads, go take a lookie.

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Actually Mr "MysticNZ" there is no thread about ECM "too random" and "too lucky". Anyone with a clue about statistics won't use such words. That easy.

If ya wanna prove me wrong, you gonna at least find those threads and understand those. Which brings us back to the statisctics class. kthxbye

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Originally by: Drakir Everborn

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Edited by: Drakir Everborn on 18/06/2006 20:27:43

Originally by: Hydrogen

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Originally by: MysticNZ

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Originally by: Hydrogen

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Edited by: Hydrogen on 17/06/2006 20:37:52

Originally by: Cown

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Yeah exactly everyone can be lucky, but ECM is just plain stupid.. it's too random, which makes people a bit too lucky in my opinion.

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talking about hard facts. Are you able to backup such a statement with numbers?

"too random", "too lucky", "..." may I suggest a class in statistics? You Sir really need it or stop talking about stuff you got no clue about.

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There are many posts about the numbers in other threads, go take a lookie.

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Actually Mr "MysticNZ" there is no thread about ECM "too random" and "too lucky". Anyone with a clue about statistics won't use such words. That easy.

If ya wanna prove me wrong, you gonna at least find those threads and understand those. Which brings us back to the statisctics class. kthxbye

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I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by insulting Cown and generally being an ass. You could have been nice about it and maybe even get your opinion through; now you only look like a smart idiot... If there is such a thing.

We are having a (at least I think so) constructive discussion concerning what we percieve as the problem with ECM and if/how to change it. Instead of saying things like "anyone with a clue knows" explain it to us.

Or simply think about what he means when he's saying "too random". I'm pretty sure he's referring to the fact that luck with ECM decides fights too often, according to him.

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