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Ed Gein
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Posted - 2006.06.13 07:57:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ed Gein on 13/06/2006 07:57:37
This has been the most expensive bug to players in Eve history. Well, except maybe the "I just got randomly concordoken" bugs. The bug goes by three innocent, little letters. ECM. It is overwhelmingly agreed upon by the vetern pvpers that ECM is absurdly imbalanced in its current state and making smaller fights come down to luck and not setups or skill (well except for having ONE jammer fitted).
What I don't understand is why a dozen other pvp related modifications have been done to ships, weapons and ammo, and still nothing has been done to ECM. ONE (emphasis here  ) module is deciding the the results of MULTIPLE fights every day. You literally can't find a battleship that doesn't fit one ECM anymore. Suddenly the "old warhorse" is the most dangerous pvp BS out there. (I can jam you easily and you can't jam my primary dmg dealers at all, muhahahaha.... wait a minute, I am minmatar spec'ed  )
I know there is not an easy "fix", but ffs, let us spend some more time on it rather than deciding if the typhoon should get a missile rof bonus or not. (bout time on that too) I know balancing is a monster, but we know the current system isn't working at all. The old system was better than this by a long shot. For the time being, I say just cut multispecs strength in half (which still probably wouldn't be enough using the current system) unless fitted to a jamming ship. Atleast until a better solution can be formed.
/end rant
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Shinnen
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Posted - 2006.06.13 09:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Shinnen on 13/06/2006 09:06:39
What bug are you on about here? The bug that you're too lazy to fit ECCM?
Dominix is the only ship us Gallente pilots get with any decent amount of med slots, so lets keep it that way.
Also ECM isn't over powered, I recently lost my recon ship thinking it would be an easy job taking out an astarte if I had 4 jammers on him. Not so.
I like the chance based system, the alternative is much worse, cutting it in half means that 1 jammer will have less than 15% chance to jam another battleship, as opposed to the ~ 30% it has now. Meaning it will just be a drain on capacitor and nothing else.
Shinnen
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People that think they know it all, just annoy those of us that do. |
Jon Hawkes
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Posted - 2006.06.13 09:32:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Shinnen
Edited by: Shinnen on 13/06/2006 09:06:39
What bug are you on about here? The bug that you're too lazy to fit ECCM?
If you'd ever fitted ECCM and gone into combat with it, you'd know exactly what is wrong with that question!
As it stands, the most effective counter to ECM is simply to fit another ECM module yourself, and hope that you can lock faster than your opponent and get the first jam cycle in. This is not biase: I have trained the specific advanced ECM skills to level 4 and still think that the prevelance of ECM over tanking in PvP these days speaks volumes about its effectiveness. I don't like the idea of PvP being a "roll of the dice" ECM fight.
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2006.06.13 09:37:00 -
[4]
signed
reduce chance to jam
or increase capacitor requirements or fitting requirements
or allow to fit only X
something should be done
ecm are the i-win-button
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Terradoct
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Posted - 2006.06.13 09:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Zemeckis R
signed
reduce chance to jam
or increase capacitor requirements or fitting requirements
or allow to fit only X
something should be done
ecm are the i-win-button
Or bring old "all or nothing" system back without this stupid chance base system...
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Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2006.06.13 09:47:00 -
[6]
I thought a simple muliplier such as:
Ship Using ECM's Sig Radius /Target Ship's Radius * ECM Strength
This would ensure that you don't end up with a frigate killing a BS because he's jammed all the time and reflects the reality that a frigate would be unlikely to be able to fit ECM powerful enough to jam a BS's targetting system.
It would leave ship class vs ship class the same as they are at the moment, which I don't have a major problem with. Ships such as the rook/blackbird etc might need a special bonus to negate this as this is where their speciality lies though.
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Lodhi
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Posted - 2006.06.13 10:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lodhi on 13/06/2006 10:03:17
Originally by: Shinnen
Edited by: Shinnen on 13/06/2006 09:06:39
What bug are you on about here? The bug that you're too lazy to fit ECCM?
Dominix is the only ship us Gallente pilots get with any decent amount of med slots, so lets keep it that way.
Also ECM isn't over powered, I recently lost my recon ship thinking it would be an easy job taking out an astarte if I had 4 jammers on him. Not so.
I like the chance based system, the alternative is much worse, cutting it in half means that 1 jammer will have less than 15% chance to jam another battleship, as opposed to the ~ 30% it has now. Meaning it will just be a drain on capacitor and nothing else.
Many of us that have played this game for a long time finds it quite frustrating that every one and their mom uses ecm on their ships. It totaly removes any kind of skill and it comes down to who locks first and who is lucky.
And there is no good way to counter it. It's like with missiles, current anti missile system is b0rked, same with backups.
Only way i can find to counter ecm is using stabs, since they work and backups don't. Atleast with stabs on you can save your ship and fight another day, or warp out and get back in. And hope and pray that the dice don't roll in your opponents way.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2006.06.13 10:13:00 -
[8]
back in old days ecm had strengh ship had ecm strengh...
To jam a ship u had to put in more ecm strengh than the ship had...
my megatron had something like 16 in gravimetric (now 21...)
so a scorp had to throw in 3 specialised ecm to jam me or 4 multispectral.
right there scorp was king of ecm now its all luck... and im not lucky
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Angaro
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Posted - 2006.06.13 10:19:00 -
[9]
Ok, well, just let it be known that if ECM is getting nerfed, I want my invested SP back 
I agree however, that it is a bit too powerful (though I think an ECM raven is more of a pain in the ass than a domi, which may or may not be related to the fact that I fly domis but not ravens). A solution may be to give an advantage to fitting ECCM modules, the same way the counter for dampeners, sensor boosters, give you an advantage even if you don't get dampened. Don't know what specifically this advantage should be.
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Shigsy mya
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Posted - 2006.06.13 11:27:00 -
[10]
i say remove ecm completly.... this game is all about calculations and yet... ecm can pwn u with chance if you cant target ur ship is worthless.... atleast with dampening you can get close but ecm is just wrong put an ecm on a frig and you can down a battleship without hastle....
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Kery Nysell
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Posted - 2006.06.13 12:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shigsy mya
i say remove ecm completly.... this game is all about calculations and yet... ecm can pwn u with chance if you cant target ur ship is worthless.... atleast with dampening you can get close but ecm is just wrong put an ecm on a frig and you can down a battleship without hastle....
Get real please, a frigate can jam a battleship, but it can't do enough damage to beat the passive shield regen of any un-tanked battleship ... SEVERAL frigates could try, if the BS doesn't warp out ...
Yes, ECM is apparently overpowered, I can't really comment on it, I don't use it in my PvE activities and I don't do any PvP, but I think that the Dev Team is quite aware of the problem, we had a very long thread about suggested changes already ...
Try to trust the Devs, after all, their real life income depends on the quality of their game, and I don't think that they want to finish as street beggars ... but you have to realise that a MMORPG is a mountain of very complicated code, changes and fixes are not easy to do.
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Mhiruu
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Posted - 2006.06.13 12:19:00 -
[12]
An idea...this might be proposed before didn't check other posts:
Introduce a new skill:
Req Electronics 5, Rank 5 skill
+%20 sensor strength per level after being jammed. This bonus lasts for 30 seconds
So when you get jammed and one cycle is done, you begin next cycle with a more powerful sensor strength thus reducing the chance to get jammed. Thus bye bye perma jamming. The duration and the percentage are just numbers off my mind. Give this some time in sisi to get more balanced numbers and you've got a solution.
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Ed Gein
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Posted - 2006.06.13 14:25:00 -
[13]
What inspired this rant in the firt place was a one on one I had with a really poorly setup tempest, against my own. I was using a cap injected dual large armor rep tank and tech 2 guns against his none tech 2 guns and one armor rep. I had him at 75 armor before he even locked me. Then he jammed me. He kept me jammed the ENTIRE time except one cycle. I went through all my cap charges and literally sat in space for 4 or 5 minutes while he slowly killed me after all my cap charges ran out.
I was so sure he had atleast 3 multispecs because he kept me jammed forever. When I asked him, he said he only had 1 jammer. ONE?!?!?! Not only that, he didnt even understand the how the jamming system is supposed to work. He was under the impression that if he got really close, less that 7km, it jams more than say 15km. I can post my chat log with this moron later, on a different computer.
And to those people above who said fit eccm or whatever. Lets say I did have an eccm module. And he only jammed me every other cycle, or just every three cycles which is what he should get on average with his multispec versus my tempest. That is a still a 20 second break where he can get two full reps off before I can even LOCK him again, which also takes time. Unless you are not tanked, you can easily recover in that time which means you will never lose a 1 vs 1.
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Jebidus Skari
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Posted - 2006.06.13 15:43:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jebidus Skari on 13/06/2006 15:46:09
Originally by: Shinnen
Edited by: Shinnen on 13/06/2006 09:06:39
What bug are you on about here? The bug that you're too lazy to fit ECCM?
Dominix is the only ship us Gallente pilots get with any decent amount of med slots, so lets keep it that way.
Also ECM isn't over powered, I recently lost my recon ship thinking it would be an easy job taking out an astarte if I had 4 jammers on him. Not so.
I like the chance based system, the alternative is much worse, cutting it in half means that 1 jammer will have less than 15% chance to jam another battleship, as opposed to the ~ 30% it has now. Meaning it will just be a drain on capacitor and nothing else.
Idiot
Edit: Before you come out with the 'oh what a contructive comment' nonsense be aware, your post doesn't deserve it.
ECM is ******* stupid atm. My 3month old alt with electronic warfare 1 in a dominix is more than capable of taking out 3yo players because this feature is nothing short of a joke. Skills hardly even feature.
ECCM at best gets a  from me 
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Astrum Ludus
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Posted - 2006.06.13 16:26:00 -
[15]
And who has the most mid slots for all this lovely over powered ECM?
The lovely, over powered, Caldari.
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.06.13 17:40:00 -
[16]
Mix chance based and the old system.
Situation: 21 sensor strength vs 22 Base ECM. ECM fires for 22, but has a random chance, based on a bell curve, of coming in between 19 and 25. Maybe 22 happens 50% of the time and 23 and 24 happen 10% (each) and 25 happens 5%, with the same percentage breakdown going the other way.
Training some skill can skew results to the right (on a graph) so that better results happen more often. For instance, at level 5 the chance of getting a 19 is only 3%.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.13 17:41:00 -
[17]
MWD's decide far more fights than ECM.
Where's the rant against them?
There are PLENTY of good suggestions in other threads, my partial jams and more.
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Angaro
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Posted - 2006.06.13 18:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
MWD's decide far more fights than ECM.
Where's the rant against them?
There are PLENTY of good suggestions in other threads, my partial jams and more.
That doesn't make a lot of sense... Guns decide even more fights, let's nerf them! It's not about which modules decide fights, it's about which modules make you win a little too often. Having a MWD on is not exactly a win-button.
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Alzion
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Posted - 2006.06.13 18:20:00 -
[19]
This is also part of the reason T2 Large guns are stressed in fleet battles. If your fighting within ECM range a fleet setup scorpion can lock down 6 enemy battleships.
Having your geddon locked down for an entire fleet battle by 1 ECM white noise isn't fun.
---------------------------------------------
I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
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Johhny Jones
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Posted - 2006.06.13 18:23:00 -
[20]
Based on ship sizes etc. I think it is fair to say that for example, a BS would have much more powerful electronics than a frigate. This is reflected in the sensor strengths, but not in the ecm strength. Maybe there should be 3 different sized ecm modules, one a frig can run (but only for example 30% likely to jam a frig, unlikely to jam a cruiser or BS), one cruiser sized (30% likelihood of jamming a cruiser) and one BS sized (30% BS jam likelihood).
This may not fix the problem of a scorp fitting 6 jammers and locking down a whole gang, so maybe make a high rank skill that allows fitting one extra ecm module per level, up to a max of 3 for example.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.13 18:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/06/2006 18:31:07
Originally by: Angaro
Originally by: Maya Rkell
MWD's decide far more fights than ECM.
Where's the rant against them?
That doesn't make a lot of sense, Guns...<snip>
Which was my point, yes.
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Angaro
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Posted - 2006.06.13 18:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/06/2006 18:31:07
Originally by: Angaro
Originally by: Maya Rkell
MWD's decide far more fights than ECM.
Where's the rant against them?
That doesn't make a lot of sense, Guns...<snip>
Which was my point, yes.
Right... sorry 
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Ed Gein
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Posted - 2006.06.13 21:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Johhny Jones
Based on ship sizes etc. I think it is fair to say that for example, a BS would have much more powerful electronics than a frigate. This is reflected in the sensor strengths, but not in the ecm strength. Maybe there should be 3 different sized ecm modules, one a frig can run (but only for example 30% likely to jam a frig, unlikely to jam a cruiser or BS), one cruiser sized (30% likelihood of jamming a cruiser) and one BS sized (30% BS jam likelihood).
This doesn't fix the problem that even a 30% jam will end a one on one. Fights only last a minute or two currently. So even jammer taking a person out of 1/4 of the fight will be the end, no coming back from that. BS's that aren't specialized jamming should have ZERO use for 1 jammer unless the way the single jammer operates is drastically changed.
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Flashmurder
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Posted - 2006.06.13 22:03:00 -
[24]
/signed
I preferred it when it you had to jam to a certain strength, one module being able to jam anything is just silly.
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Spiderweb
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Posted - 2006.06.13 22:24:00 -
[25]
There is nothing worse in the game than ECM. Totallly negates pvp gameplay where present and just makes the whole thing a bit retarded imho.
I dont know how serious the devs are considering the ECM problem, but its big and it prevails in all its splentour down under the low secs.
1 ship making 4 other to seem like piles of scrap metal with badly fitted warp drives just doesnt seem good for a GAME.
-----------------------------------------------
We all live in a Yellow Submarine |
Ceiri
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Posted - 2006.06.13 23:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
Edited by: Jebidus Skari on 13/06/2006 15:46:09
Idiot
Edit: Before you come out with the 'oh what a contructive comment' nonsense be aware, your post doesn't deserve it.
ECM is ******* stupid atm. My 3month old alt with electronic warfare 1 in a dominix is more than capable of taking out 3yo players because this feature is nothing short of a joke. Skills hardly even feature.
ECCM at best gets a from me
Heaven forbid anyone should ever be able to kill a 3 year old player, right?
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Ceiri
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Posted - 2006.06.13 23:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alzion
This is also part of the reason T2 Large guns are stressed in fleet battles. If your fighting within ECM range a fleet setup scorpion can lock down 6 enemy battleships.
Having your geddon locked down for an entire fleet battle by 1 ECM white noise isn't fun.
Says who? It's fun for the guy who locked you out.
I like ECM. Crowd control has a place in MMORPGs. And don't even bother saying it's because I must be brand new or anything. This character is one of the magical "3 years" gang.
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Cade Morrigan
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Posted - 2006.06.14 00:44:00 -
[28]
Cutting the chance to jam in half makes ECM not worth fitting, which isn't a good answer to the problem. Going back to a Jam vs Sensor strength pass/fail system isn't a horrible idea, but you'll see nothing but Scorps and Blackbirds being used for ECM after that. Do we really want to see only a couple of ships using ECM to any effect in the future? Predictability = Big Yawn.
How about this...
- If your ECM rating is better than your target's ECCM rating you will always jam him.
- Successful ECM "jams" its target for a period of time based on ECM vs sensor strength.
- Multiple ECM modules on the same ship aimed at the same target don't stack. (nor does ECCM stack)
- Multiple ECM modules on DIFFERENT ships aimed at the same target do stack! (teamwork eh?)
- Jammed ships eventually "burn through" the ECM interference and cannot be jammed by the same ship for a "long" time (3-5 minute timer?). Burn-through time depends on ECM vs sensor strength.
Take all that with a pound of salt. The point of this sort of system is that you can defend against ECM in a couple of ways: either fit powerful ECCM to prevent being jammed at all, or rely on powerful sensors to burn through the ECM. To be worth fitting, ECM must, if used properly, succeed in jamming targets with regularity. But to prevent it from being i-win it must become less effective and defeatable relatively quickly.
rip away!
-= Save the Gila! Fix its grid and cpu! =-
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Vathar
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Posted - 2006.06.14 01:15:00 -
[29]
About ECCM being a useful counter to ECM.
I was going phoon vs a friend's domi on Sisi, he was using a fairly standard nos+3multispec domi. I tried to fit 2 of best ECCM available (ended up with 43 sensor strength) ... We did multiple tests and I ended up jammed about 2/3 of the time
that's 43 Ladar vs 5.6 ECM strength from multispec. Not very effective IMO!!
____________
Space Shaman
Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway |
Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2006.06.14 05:53:00 -
[30]
I have very low ecm skills. I've attempted to ECM enemies countless times and it's never worked once LOL. If I took the time to max the skills, I'd expect it to work sometimes. I'd expect it to work more often in an ECM specialized ship with 3 ECM's pointed at the same enemy.
I've been jammed in my dominix by a player in a vagabond.
I don't know whether you are wrong or right, and am not saying anything one way or the other, just giving you my experiences with ECM to help you with your dataset.
It's definitely not an I-WIN button for any noob with a racial jammer. It definitely is effective for people with the skills who give up the slots for jammers, and as you said, random.
The only issue I see with taking away the randomness, is that it then works every time, or it fails every time. I'm not sure which would be worse.
-Kal
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My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong. |
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