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Avon
   |
Posted - 2006.06.14 10:52:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Max Teranous
I'm wondering what the gm's new guidelines are for whether they get involved or not. Amount of isk involved? Number of players scammed? Number of whining posts on the forums? Other?
or if rules were broken? Read my post above.
The rules that were in place when this was discussed clearly stated that forum scams would not have in-game repercusions, unless they in some way involved real money (GTC's & Character transfers).
It doesn't matter what the rules say now, or what rules had said prior to the rules that were in force at the time.
CCP has made a rule change, and therefore a policy change, and it is only fair that the players are now informed exactly where the new lines have been drawn.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:01:00 -
[122]
The shares were delivered. There was no scam.
--
Carebear > Why'd you do that? I just got that ship!
Pirate > I just got that ammo, do you hear me whining? |
Crux Australis
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:03:00 -
[123]
So, to sum it up and see if I have got it correctly:
1) Some people got parted from their money.
2) Some of these people by chance happen to be forum *****s.
3) Hence, the whining is strong on this one.
4) Money is reimbursed and taken from the scammer's wallet.
Uhm, as far as I can remember rule #1 in eve is: don't trust anyone, even your own momma.
This said, you partecipate in an IPO knowing that these things, due to lack of in game mechanics, are based solely on trust.
Then teh **** hits the fan, you got parted from your money and you start the booohoooo ?
And, shock and horror... you got even reimbursed ?????
You *looked* for it... and... you got even reimbursed ?????
CCP, imho you should give ArtemisEntreri back its money, apologise with everyone, and pretend that you never ******-up this way.
Warn/suspend/ban Artemis from the forum for being an ******* and posting the link to the "you are an idiot thing"?
Yes, but that should be all.
At the end of the day, is eve REALLY about all-out pvp or is it becoming another flower-picking fairy game?
P.S.
It is your full right to change the ruleset, it is your game and we all are paying for the right to play it, but when you do such things you cannot act in a retroactive way.
Change whatever you want, post the changes, make everyone aknowledged and make it work *from now on*.
Double standards = ftl.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Originally by: Frezik
Detaurus isn't a person. It's a state of mind.
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Monica Foulkes
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:03:00 -
[124]
I just sent a petition regarding another similar scam to see if the reply from a GM will shed some light on this new policy.
The 8h skill buffer | Insta BM Fix |
Samurai Saija
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 11:03:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Max Teranous
I'm wondering what the gm's new guidelines are for whether they get involved or not. Amount of isk involved? Number of players scammed? Number of whining posts on the forums? Other?
or if rules were broken? Read my post above.
The rules that were in place when this was discussed clearly stated that forum scams would not have in-game repercusions, unless they in some way involved real money (GTC's & Character transfers).
It doesn't matter what the rules say now, or what rules had said prior to the rules that were in force at the time. It's been like that way before this scam.
CCP has made a rule change, and therefore a policy change, and it is only fair that the players are now informed exactly where the new lines have been drawn.
It's been like that for long time. You and few others rather belive some rumour of CCP sneaking in to change these rules. I posted in my previous post to link to cached eve-search rules. Even though it's very old it say scams are not allowed in sell orders forums.
Even if forum rules doesn't specify for everything that it may or may not get your account banned doesn't mean you can break these rules and then expect that you might just get temporally banned from forums. For example posting exploits on these forums probably get you banned even though forums rules dont specify that.
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:05:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
The shares were delivered. There was no scam.
 For real... Even that one who did it said it was scam. He made thread himself to brag about his scam and you still claim it wasn't scam.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:06:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Samurai Saija
The rules that were in place when this was discussed clearly stated that forum scams would not have in-game repercusions, unless they in some way involved real money (GTC's & Character transfers).
It doesn't matter what the rules say now, or what rules had said prior to the rules that were in force at the time. It's been like that way before this scam.
CCP has made a rule change, and therefore a policy change, and it is only fair that the players are now informed exactly where the new lines have been drawn.
It's been like that for long time. You and few others rather belive some rumour of CCP sneaking in to change these rules. I posted in my previous post to link to cached eve-search rules. Even though it's very old it say scams are not allowed in sell orders forums.
Even if forum rules doesn't specify for everything that it may or may not get your account banned doesn't mean you can break these rules and then expect that you might just get temporally banned from forums. For example posting exploits on these forums probably get you banned even though forums rules dont specify that.
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:12:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
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James Snowscoran
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:13:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
that rule refers to auctions or sales that have no intention on delivering on what they promise to sell.
IPO's promise to sell you shares. They do not promise that those shares will guarantee a profit to the buyer.
In the past only forum auctions for non-existent items or items tied to real cash value were moderated ingame by GM's. Now this has been extended for the first time to sales and auctions that actually *do* deliver but simply don't make good on expectations raised with the buyer.
The example case may be clear-cut, but it's the very fact that very similiar cases are possible were there's alot mroe uncertainty to it that makes this new stance impossible to maintain.
An example. I do exactly what happened in this scam. Only difference: I don't cut and run right away, making my intentions known. But I actually go through the motions of trying a bit for forms' sake and cut and run after two weeks instead, protesting that I simply tried and failed, or that my RL situation has changed. And that I have decided to leave the character behind and get a new one because i've been unfairly accused of scamming, ruining the ingame reputation of my character.
Then what ?
Spot on. A big problem with the decision to outlaw IPO scams is that it's fairly easy to work around, as long as, say, corp thefts are still allowed. Just go IPO, hire a friend's alt into the corp and make him director, let him steal all the ISK/assets and then declare you've been robbed and all the ISK is gone. By this time, the thief is technically free to do whatever he wants with the ISK as he has acquired it legally, and this includes giving it to the original scammer. Alternatively, the ISK can be laundered through the purchase and distribution of GTCs.
Unless CCP wishes to guarantee IPO investors that they will get their investments back even if the IPO fails for some legitimate reason, I fail to see how this will end scams, as intentions are impossible to prove. CCP can ofc go with arbitrary rulings and dish out wanton punishment, but this would be a very different policy from what they have always stood for in the past, especially considering macrominers.
If CCP really wants to make IPOs safer and IPO investments more attractive they need to provide the game mechanics to support this instead of trying to police the forums with an iron fist. A radical re-thinking of the entire corporation model, especially considering the role of directors and CEOs in relation to a board of directors and the shareholders, will probably be needed if CCP are serious about making making stock trading and investments a serious part of EVE.
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James Snowscoran
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:16:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
Yes you can.
Lots of people who were victims of IPO scams petitioned and got a 'scams are allowed so no reimbursements' reply.
This clearly indicates that IPO scams -were- allowed on the sell orders forum.
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:16:00 -
[131]
So still no response? hmm, and yeah I noticed they changed the rules for scams in sell order forums just now
damn need to make a new sig... |
Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:18:00 -
[132]
Originally by: James Snowscoran
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
Yes you can.
Lots of people who were victims of IPO scams petitioned and got a 'scams are allowed so no reimbursements' reply.
This clearly indicates that IPO scams -were- allowed on the sell orders forum.
It clearly indicate that these were GM reply before someone provided GM with link to sell order forum thread that Janette was using to scam.
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James Snowscoran
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:20:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: James Snowscoran
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
Yes you can.
Lots of people who were victims of IPO scams petitioned and got a 'scams are allowed so no reimbursements' reply.
This clearly indicates that IPO scams -were- allowed on the sell orders forum.
It clearly indicate that these were GM reply before someone provided GM with link to sell order forum thread that Janette was using to scam.
You misunderstand, I was talking about IPO scams that happened before this one. And trust me, those people probably provided links.
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:23:00 -
[134]
Originally by: James Snowscoran
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: James Snowscoran
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
Yes you can.
Lots of people who were victims of IPO scams petitioned and got a 'scams are allowed so no reimbursements' reply.
This clearly indicates that IPO scams -were- allowed on the sell orders forum.
It clearly indicate that these were GM reply before someone provided GM with link to sell order forum thread that Janette was using to scam.
You misunderstand, I was talking about IPO scams that happened before this one. And trust me, those people probably provided links.
Provide me one link to IPO scam thread that used Sell Order forums that did't get locked and GM take actions and then I belive you.
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:26:00 -
[135]
Samuraj you dont get it, its allways been that worst thing that can happen to one scamming on forums was a forum ban. Only exception was GTC and characters.
damn need to make a new sig... |
Crux Australis
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:26:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Sir Juri
So still no response?
[ 2006.06.14 11:23:55 ] (notify) CCP's Training of the skill Dodging Unwanted Posts lvl 5 has been completed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Originally by: Frezik
Detaurus isn't a person. It's a state of mind.
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:29:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Crux Australis
Originally by: Sir Juri
So still no response?
[ 2006.06.14 11:23:55 ] (notify) CCP's Training of the skill Dodging Unwanted Posts lvl 5 has been completed.
well I hope sooner or later they adress this. Atleast so one knows the rules. Cant have a world where ppl dont know the laws and then go to jail.
damn need to make a new sig... |
Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:31:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Sir Juri
Samuraj you dont get it, its allways been that worst thing that can happen to one scamming on forums was a forum ban. Only exception was GTC and characters.
It's been that worst thing that can happen to you if you use sell order forum to scam and break the rules is forum ban and lose scammed item/isk. You are not allowed to scam on sell order forums, never have far as I remember.
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Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:34:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
Samurai, you are incorrect and you need to take a step back and listen to the many people who do know what they're talking about here.
Here is a link to a post by Minuet that directly cites the scam directive that was in force at the time of the incident underlying this thread.
I quote it again here (emphasis mine);
Quote:
5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.*
*Clarification: Scams (unless involving real life money) are allowed in game, and while other forms of scams are not allowed here, posting it has no repercussions in game.
Clearly this rule has not been followed in this instance, since the GM's have decided that it would have in-game repercussions, namely the reimbursement of those scammed at the cost of the scammer.
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:34:00 -
[140]
To make the CCP rules clears, here they are:
From Eve-Online Support:
What exactly is a scam?
A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.
---------------
Old forum rules (pre 13/06/06):
5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.*.
*Clarification: Scams (unless involving real life money) are allowed in game, and while other forms of scams are not allowed here, posting it has no repercussions in game.
---------------
New forum rules (Post 13/06/06):
5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.*.
*Clarification: Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion.
---------------
Max 
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:42:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Samurai Saija on 14/06/2006 11:41:59
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Samurai Saija
Originally by: Avon
Your cached link is meaningless.
Those rules were superceeded by the one that were in force at the time.
Basically, the rules say that you weren't allowed to scam on the forums - but if you did then repercussions would be limited to the forums, and nothing would happen in-game (Except with scams involving rl money).
You can slice it any way you want, but that is the truth of the matter.
Scams on sell order forums haven't been allowed long as I can remember. You can't even provide any sort of evidences that CCP some how sneaked to changes these rules.
Samurai, you are incorrect and you need to take a step back and listen to the many people who do know what they're talking about here.
Here is a link to a post by Minuet that directly cites the scam directive that was in force at the time of the incident underlying this thread.
I quote it again here (emphasis mine);
Quote:
5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.*
*Clarification: Scams (unless involving real life money) are allowed in game, and while other forms of scams are not allowed here, posting it has no repercussions in game.
Clearly this rule has not been followed in this instance, since the GM's have decided that it would have in-game repercussions, namely the reimbursement of those scammed at the cost of the scammer.
And he could have just made that up. I wouldnt belive anything else until CCP say they sneaked to change these rules.
You are so paranoid on CCP, but first thing someone post some forum rules with noe vidences what so ever and you are ready to belive it.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:43:00 -
[142]
Guess CCP needs some time to discuss it internally. As with the SAS name debacle I am convinced they'll do the right thing. Just give them some time to investigate the matter.
Now recruiting!
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:44:00 -
[143]
Samurai its not a lie. Sigh*
damn need to make a new sig... |
Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:46:00 -
[144]
CCP needs a political commisar that can deal with these matters.
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:46:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Samurai Saija
And he could have just made that up. I wouldnt belive anything else until CCP say they sneaked to change these rules.
You are so paranoid on CCP, but first thing someone post some forum rules with noe vidences what so ever and you are ready to belive it.
You need to learn when to accept simply that you are wrong mate.
Feel free to Google the quote and see how many others have quoted it, on these forums, verbatim in the last few months.
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Obby
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:52:00 -
[146]
I have no sympathy for the scammer here.
Scamming is the new macromining. It's not that I have a problem with scammers, it's just that there's WAY too much of it. One guy posts in crime and punishment that he scammed a piece of scordite labelled scorpion for 50million and you can't buy the Tier1 Caldari BS for 6 weeks because there's suddenly so much scordite for sale at vastly inflated prices on Escrow.
It seems to me, some people start playing the game and they are so confused by it's vastness that after 3 hours of staring at their screen during which time some saliva escapes the corner of their mouth and slides slowly down their chin, they give up and stick to what's easy and just put up a shed load of crap scams on Escrow and rake in billions without ever discovering how to set a skill into training or undocking from the station. Plus there's no comeback on it, just delete the alt and create a new one and continue from there. While scamming should be allowed, it shouldn't be a substitute for actually playing the game.
I read the guys gloat thread. I'm personally glad CCP wiped his smug grin for yet another scam-by-numbers unoriginal - found at google.com - scam.
Did CCP break their own rules? I don't care - scammers should know, don't trust anyone, not even CCP. Guess the scammer got scammed. Real life reflects eve I guess.
(posted with an alt, as I have no intention of enduring several months of kestrel suicide squads by disgruntled forum warriors) |
Seribus
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Posted - 2006.06.14 11:55:00 -
[147]
First, I do tend to agree that the saying of 'Let the buyer beware' applies to this game more so than it does in real life. That being said, however, I can see why Eve policy may be changing from a pure business point of view.
You can bet that for every scam you see talked about on these forums there are 20 that you don't see. Equally, because of the way this game works there are absolutely no reprecussions for the scammers themselves - something that really needs to be looked at.
The Eve team likely has been seeing the number of scam grow over time and it may very well have reached a critical point at which the devs can no longer ignore the problem. Hell, the fact that so many people just consider it 'a part of the game' is a really bad sign. Scams should never be considered acceptable by people.
I would love to see the population of Eve grow to double or triple what it is now. However, there is no way it will ever do that with the attitudes that people see on these forums. Risk is cool and a great part of this game but if Eve devs are going to be hands off then players need to have ingame tools to deal with the scams and the ability to levy reprecussions on the scammer. People looking at this game will see that it is considered alright and cool to bilk someone of their hard earned successes (in whatever form) and wonder why they should even bother (I know several who considered getting into this game but then read the forums and go elsewhere - not because they are afraid of the PvP, difficulty or risks inherent to the game but because the population seen on the forums tends to be overly hostile).
Finally, if players can scam at will then it is pretty hypocritical for players to ***** at Eve devs for 'scamming' you on what is legit and what is not. Why should you hold them to a higher standard than you hold youself.
Seribus
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.06.14 12:02:00 -
[148]
Seribus, taking away the option of evil does not automatically make people good; in fact it prevents them from being good.
To be good you must actively reject evil.
Eve allows good & evil to fight, and that is a great thing.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Sir Juri
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 12:06:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Sir Juri on 14/06/2006 12:09:51
Tbh, if they are gonna run with this new policy for the forums I wanna know some things.
Is this "ONLY" for forums and are you free to scam ingame if the scam havnt been started on the forums?
If one does scam on the forums what are the penalty? reimbursement loosing the ISK you made in the scam and a "BAN""? if so ban ingame asswell? warnings?
Another thing I wanna know is. How can you write it "may" about other scams. I mean either you DONT police scams or you DO! Are we going to see ppl now getting ISK back some not, some banned some not!?!?!?
Also I wanna know a clarification as to scamming ingame, and forums I wanna know a set of rules everyone can quote and rely on.
And I also wanna know what makes an IPO fail compared to scam if the scammer doesnt advertise it? Would you do police investigations to conclude if they did fail or were actually laundring the cash or someone in the corporation stole it?
Will you investigate every endeavour ppl take on making sure they aint up to something fishy even if the victims doesnt notice themselves?
Isnt Kali contracts suppose "fix" all of this? I really like these questions answered.
edit; What happens if someone makes a legit IPO but then a corp member of that IPO steals everything from the corp!? hmm many different things comes to play now...
damn need to make a new sig... |
James Snowscoran
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 12:07:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Obby
I have no sympathy for the scammer here.
Scamming is the new macromining. It's not that I have a problem with scammers, it's just that there's WAY too much of it. One guy posts in crime and punishment that he scammed a piece of scordite labelled scorpion for 50million and you can't buy the Tier1 Caldari BS for 6 weeks because there's suddenly so much scordite for sale at vastly inflated prices on Escrow.
It seems to me, some people start playing the game and they are so confused by it's vastness that after 3 hours of staring at their screen during which time some saliva escapes the corner of their mouth and slides slowly down their chin, they give up and stick to what's easy and just put up a shed load of crap scams on Escrow and rake in billions without ever discovering how to set a skill into training or undocking from the station. Plus there's no comeback on it, just delete the alt and create a new one and continue from there. While scamming should be allowed, it shouldn't be a substitute for actually playing the game.
I read the guys gloat thread. I'm personally glad CCP wiped his smug grin for yet another scam-by-numbers unoriginal - found at google.com - scam.
Did CCP break their own rules? I don't care - scammers should know, don't trust anyone, not even CCP. Guess the scammer got scammed. Real life reflects eve I guess.
(posted with an alt, as I have no intention of enduring several months of kestrel suicide squads by disgruntled forum warriors)
No.
We should be able to trust CCP, including trusting that they will follow their own rules.
Our relation to the other players are player versus player. Our relations to CCP are customer versus company.
There's a very real difference and the fact is that in order to play the game we have to trust CCP. I trust them with my credit card number and personal information, I trust that tthey will continue to provide me with a good game to play. I also trust that my character will not be spontaneously ass-raped and ruin the real-life hours I've put into acquiring virtual assets with him, though I must say that trust has been a wee bit shaken by current events. Who knows what rule will be altered with retroactive effect next time? Maybe gtc scams are suddenly allowed and people that previously got reimbursed lose their money?
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