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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
133
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Posted - 2014.07.01 22:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Flying along a trade route without backup is always a risk. Had my heart pumping when I flew my alt through Aufay with 750mil in the hold. Good thing the tank of the new DSTs isn't easily estimated, makes a gank attempt riskier, thus less likely.
Back Up? Maybe I'm just inexperienced at this but I don't understand what kind of back up you can have in high sec. Low and Null different story but high sec? What am I missing here? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
133
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 22:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Seems like this is one of those situations where a perceived problem is in actuality an opportunity. If haulers were to start employing escorts to help protect their hindquarters not only would it increase their odds of arriving intact, but it would also give other players something to do as well.
It may not be the most exciting task out there, but if the ISK is right I'm sure there are young pilots out there who would happily ride shotgun with freighters in griffins or the like, helping web them into warp and jamming attempted ganks.
I can't see the cost of such services being so prohibitive as for it to cut too deeply into a freighter pilot's bottom line, so the real problem must lie elsewhere...
I might be missing something but I don't know any freighter pilots with deep pockets. They are extremely vulnerable and have to carry around large isk value worth of cargo for what is usually single digit margins. They take large risk for something that takes huge amounts of time and pays out little. I can make much more isk per hour doing pretty much anything else other than flying a frieghter and if I had to pay 5 other pilots what their time was worth it would be so far in the negative that it would be impossible. Mind you I'm not crying about this because I don't really haul **** around in frieghters much and if I do it's mostly just my own stuff that I need moved. I'm just pointing out that for me as things are now I don't haul because it's too much risk and too little isk. If haulers had to hire escorts in high sec I'm sure others would find better ways to make isk as well. That's not to mention that there is not much that other pilots can do to help guard against a gank. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
133
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 22:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tippia wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Back Up? Maybe I'm just inexperienced at this but I don't understand what kind of back up you can have in high sec. Low and Null different story but high sec? What am I missing here? You can have the same in high as everywhere else: scouts, logis, links, ewar, and GÇö quite simply GÇö a whole bunch of firepower.
Links I can see being helpful. The rest of this I just don't see. Gankers are counting on loosing their ships to concord and you can't shoot them until they shoot you first because of that:
-a logi pilot will only get a couple of cycles off so I don't see that being all that helpful
-scouts are useless you already know what the gank systems are and the gates there are perma camped by known gankers. I'm not sure what useful intel you think a scout will give you
-Ewar and firepower both of those again you need to wait for the gankers to shoot first so while they can be helpful in reducing the incoming dps by a small margin I doubt enough to make it worth using.
-The web trick does not work as well as it used to and I doubt well enough to get you warped out before a freighter blows up.
I think the thing you are also neglecting to acknowledge here is that if you brought a logi and an ewar and some dps that's nothing that couldn't be overcome by adding one or two more gank ships which is not a huge expense. On the other side having to pay 3 people to follow you everywhere all the time just incase you have a gank attempt is an extreme cost increase.
In null sec you can send friends ahead to clear non-blues off of gates or see if a system is clear. Those options don't exist in high sec. I've escorted freighters through null before to move upgrade mods that wouldn't fit in a JF. I know how that works. None of the things I did to help my freighter pilot in null can I do in high sec. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
133
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 23:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:It's funny how carebears desperately choose to believe in myths about highsec 'safety'.
'You're fine as long as you don't **** off anyone' - nope, people will gank you for no personal reason.
'Fit for tank and you will survive' - nope, the gankers are friendly people with lots of friends.
'Don't carry high value cargo and you'll be ok' - nope, profit isn't the only reason to gank.
I've said it before, highsec should be renamed 'Medium Security Space'. It would avoid all this confusion!
The only people that concord protects in high sec is the gankers. The only thing concord will do to protect non-gankers is blow up the ganker's ships after they have done thier job. However concord does protect gankers from anyone coming to clear them off a gate before they do their job. I see that as a huge imbalance in game mechanics.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 23:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:scouts are useless you already know what the gank systems are and the gates there are perma camped by known gankers. I'm not sure what useful intel you think a scout will give you Except it's hard to perma camp with a 15 minute GCC.
you act as if there is only one ganker sitting on the gate which is not the case.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 23:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:However concord does protect gankers from anyone coming to clear them off a gate before they do their job. I see that as a huge imbalance in game mechanics. Do you mean -10.0 gankers? Or even positive sec status alts that can be safely locked in advance, and then either ECM'd or Alpha'd 1 second after they go GCC? Are you sure you know the game mechanics?
Yes I'm sure that I am I'm wondering if you are. Yes I understand that you can attack these guys once they attack. When you travel through any of the high 0.5 sec gates on the main pipes you see dozens of gankers sitting there and I know of no ship that can lock up dozens of ships at once so you need wait and see who shoots and wait for them to go red before you can lock and either ECM them or shoot at them in either case they only plan on making it about 15 seconds or so anyway so if you can't even attempt to shoot or jam them for 5 or so seconds you are not taking that ship out of the equation only reducing it's effectiveness.
For gankers to add another ship or two just incase you have help which they will do if more people start having escorts is not a huge expense increase but having escorts is.
As far as -10 pilots I'm not a ganker and don't know how they gank like they do but I am assuming they are off grid and jump in ship stored in an orca and warp to gank when their scouts tell them the freighter will be on grid. Yes you can shoot -10 players but they are going flashy red as soon as they land an lock anyway so the sec status has nearly no adverse affect.
I am not saying that there is nothing that friends could do to help what I am saying is that you need expensive T2 ships like command ships and they need to always be with all of the freighter pilots all the time where as the gankers only need to counter that with a couple extra cheap T1 ships and only when the gank is happening.
On one side you have a need for more expensive ships to permanently be with you and on the other side you have cheaper ships that only need to be there for the time that the gank is happening. I don't do this game play so it does not affect me. I'm just saying there is no balance here and the risk versus reward ratio just does not match up.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 21:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Yet just Red Frog completed over 200,000 contracts last year with next to zero losses. How the hell is that possible?! Could it be that ganks are trivially easy to avoid by competent freighter pilots?
That is an excellent question that I have wondered myself. For all I know Red Frog could be the ones doing the ganking or paying "protection" fees. I mean it makes sense you either gank a whole bunch of freighters on alts or pay someone else to gank freighters that aren't yours then you know that you are safe to afk auto pilot your contract freighters with little to no worries.
If red frog isn't behind this they should be. It would increase the value of their service, increase the use of their service and decrease the number of other's not in their control to feel the need to make freighters feel less safe. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 22:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:When you travel through any of the high 0.5 sec gates on the main pipes you see dozens of gankers sitting there and I know of no ship that can lock up dozens of ships at once so you need wait and see who shoots and wait for them to go red before you can lock and either ECM them or shoot at them in either case they only plan on making it about 15 seconds or so anyway so if you can't even attempt to shoot or jam them for 5 or so seconds you are not taking that ship out of the equation only reducing it's effectiveness. You don't have to lock dozens of them. You just have to lock 2GÇô3 and nullify them. That's all it takes for the gank to fail. More to the point, if you see a dozen ganker hanging around a gate, you don't have to lock any of them to make the gank fail. All you do is pick another route.
you don't know which 2-3 they are until they start shooting at you. There are choke points in some cases that can not be avoided without going into low sec which I doubt you are advising freighter pilots to do. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 22:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Even those odds seem insanely high, as in GÇ£off by an order of magnitude or threeGÇ¥.  e: In fact, just looking back the past week, we have one day with a decent number of freighter kills: the 26th. Uedama saw 4 of them, Niarja and surrounding systems saw 7. How many hundreds of freighters pass through those choke points in a single day?
I have to agree with you on this but for a freighter pilot even one loss in 100 is huge since they loose so much with one loss and make so little on one trip. Last that I checked a freighter it's self cost about a Billion and it's not hard to fill them with another Billion in cargo or deposit fee for a contracted load. Loosing 2+ Billion isk when you only stand to make a few million on a load it takes a **** ton of loads to make up for one loss.
The other thing to think about is the gankers are risking nothing. They plan on loosing the ships that they are in. There is no chance they keep it. It's a garunteed loss there is no risk of keeping your ship a calculated expense you could say. They get to pick and choose when where and how much expense they put into the venture and have the chance to make a **** ton.
The freighter pilot on the other hand has everything to loose and very little to gain. The large alliances can afford to loose ships and just consider it part of the expense of doing business. It's the new pilots that are affected the most by this and since you can't tell new pilot from alliance alt since most freighter pilots are in noob corps to avoid war decs.
Again I don't haul stuff often so I don't care much about this and I understand that this type of game play has been around for ever. I'm not even suggesting anything be done about it. All that I am saying is that there is nothing even close to risk versus reward balance on this like CCP claims they aim for. Especially the fact that you are seeing multiple empty freighters being ganked.
Ganking has been in the game since day one it's a huge part of Eve. I don't take issue with that. Freighter pilots have never and will never be safe in Eve. When you fly a freighter it's like painting a big target on your back and they are no fun to fly. That's just the way it is you either learn that the easy way or the hard way. What I do take issue with is when people claim that there is somehow some sort of balance in the ganking mechanics. Concord has never and will never proctect the non-victimizing players. The only people that benefit from concord protection are the players that like to victimize others. That's eve that's how this game is played it's not going to change and posting about it not being fair will change nothing, you will only feed the trolls of which I am probably one. |
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