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Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 11:49:00 - [1] I was recently looking through a thread about resists and the wolf and it rekindled my wonder about why minnies have two huge holes in their armour resists. Well in a sense all armour tanking minnie t2 ships get screwed over because they have two huge holes in the armour resists, kinetic and explosive. Tbh I would reduce the 92 percent em bonus to its natural 70 percent to boost one of the holes. Who in eve really cares about the story line more than balance(I may get flamed for this but balance is more important than a story). And if Amarr get an explosive crystal they will own minmatar. And dont give me that garbage about those holes are made up for by uber shield resists. Sure I like those resists because for certain ships, aka vaga and Jag, it is very useful. The fact that shield resists are useful to a vaga shows how much armour tanking stinks. The vaga has more low slots but people would rather put stabs there instead of 2 armour hardeners. Since the kinetic resists at 40 percent are often overlooked shiels tanking is widely accepted to be a better tank regardless of whether or not there are more lows. I do consider 40 percent to be a hole when you have a t2 ship. 1. The devs should increase kinetic resists to 60%. 2. Or they can lower the kinetic resist so it doesnt fool people into thinking Shield has no resist holes and boost the one of the holes in armor. In reality Minnies have three holes in resists for armour and shield because if they wanted all resists above 50% they need to use three hardeners. An invuln field and kinetic and explosive armour hardeners. t2 ships of other races have one hole in the whatever they are tanking and one hole in what they are not tanking. Minnies should especially be like that because they are the only race that tanks shield and armour. For more proof I added up all the resists of a t2 minnie ship and did the same with a Caldari t2 ship. It turns out that the minnie ship has 1 percent more of total resists. This supports me because it shows minnie have about the same total resists and they still have three holes. To conlude this post Minnie resists are spread out unevenly on their t2 ships. Pleas dont flame me for wanting to be more uber or being a nub I just want to other peoples input on my suggestions.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.17 11:57:00 - [2] i am just waiting till all the Amarr whiners get some IWIN button which makes Amarr FOTM like Caldari. Once most ppl use amarr our em armour resists will finally become somewhat useful. I love how Amarr whine about minnie racial resists when we are even more unhappy about it than them. Unfortunately i have to say that we have the same chances to get our armour resists changed as amarr has to get rid of em as main dmg. Namely 0 chance, nada, zilch, not even when hell freezes over. ;( Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
PriceCheckMax	Posted - 2006.06.17 11:58:00 - [3] So, what is the problem exactly, Minmatar t2 ships are too weak compared to other races?
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:04:00 - [4] The prblem is that armour tanking t2 minnie ships get screwed over ,Which is half of minnie t2 ships, by bad resists. Imo it isn't compensensated by the shield resists it shouldn't be. Both should have one hole so the tank on all minnie t2 ships are comparable to to other races. Btw please read the post before asking to be handfed the information. No offense.
Copine Callmeknau	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:17:00 - [5] They're fine, quit whining. ------- See the idiot walk, see the idiot talk
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:17:00 - [6] Hole = less than 50% resistance. With "optimal damage against" I mean the races which have least resistance against the damage your ship is doing realistically. As you can see, it's not entirely one-sided. Additionally, what is not shown, is that Minmatar ships are fast and small enough that most weapons used against them does less damage before resistances - or at the very least that it's easier to get out with your ship alive with Minmatar. Amarr: Shield - EM 0%, Thermal 25% Armour (main) - Thermal 35% Optimal damage against - Amarr Caldari: Shield (main) - EM 0% Armour - EXP 10% Optimal damage against - Minmatar Gallente: Shield - EM 0% Armour (main) - EXP 10% Optimal damage against - Minmatar Minmatar: Shield - Kinetic 35% Armour - Exp 10%, Kinetic 25% Optimal damage against - Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar P.S. resistances aren't "filling in holes", it's "being damned hard for the enemy to kill" where 'enemy' is chosen from RP enemy list. Btw, Amarr fail in that matter since Minmatar do so varied damage, Gallente fail slightly because some Caldari ships can do greatly varied damage. Minmatar succede the most. New sig coming soonÖ Tuxford's good for EVE.
Ernest Graefenberg	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:28:00 - [7] hi2u
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:30:00 - [8] The minmatar optimal dmage means nothing because most people probably usr barrage or some t2 ammo which do only explosive and kinetic. Other very common ammo types are nuclear and titanium sabot which do kinetic and explosive. I will admit emp proton and phased plasma give a good variety of damage types. Imo caldari are the king of damage types because they can choose whatever damage they want and concentrate all their firepower using one damage type or mix it up. In any case I think minmatar were given the ability to use all damage types to make up for their generally low dps.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:33:00 - [9] EM, Explosive,Kinetic,Thermal Cerberus shield (0,60,70,80) (210) Vagabond shield (75,60,40,60) (235) Cerberus armor (60,10,62,86) (218) Vagabond armor (92,10,25,67) (194) Cerb is a shield tanker and might use 2 EM hardeners and 1 invuln field to get good resists all over. Its basicly made to sit and tank damage. Vagabond stats look like it would be better at shield tanking, but it only has 4 medium slots. If you want to armor tank it, you can use 2 explosive hardeners and 1 kinetic to get decent resists all over. --- The Eve Wiki Community Portal
Slax Kalimatar	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:35:00 - [10] no prob here for minmatar resists. we got high velocity (and some bonus), less hull than any other racial ship, making our ships very fast and high tracking turrets. so just fit an AB, MWD on your ship, orbit the target at high speed and kill them. they will not deal that much damage to you, therefor you dont even recognize that you got "less" resists on your ship. Just dont get webbed... in this case... well then you notice that you got holes in your ship .. some big ones
Matrices Sunbound	Posted - 2006.06.17 12:59:00 - [11] I know what you mean slax but nowadays your almost garunteed to get webbed unless your pirating noobs in low sec. But I normally do small gang engagements in 0.0. Besides a good tank can't hurt @Jim I was adding the resists of assualt ships and When I mean hole I mean anything below 50 percent. Technically one Em hardener would do for the cerb but most would fit more. All minnie ships have to move fast or tackle so we can't dedicate most of our slots to tanking. Unlike the caldari ships which just spam missiles. @ ernest Your suggestion for t1 ships is to add a 50% hardener effect to the primary racial resist. That would just make t1 ships too much like t2 and their resists would be too high. Here's a tip, dont look at resists as something that increase your tank but what reduces the enemies gank. Looking at it that way there is no problem with the 10% increase to racial resists. And you mention t2 resists remain unaffected by your suggestion. In this thread I am talking about changing minnie t2 resists so we don't have three holes. In fact your suggestion makes battles shorter since everyone has room for more damage modules. In general all ships become variations of the tank and gank style of the raven.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2006.06.17 13:29:00 - [12] What you say is true. This is indeed a factor of Minmatar supposedly being able to shield or armor tank. Shield tanking Minmatar can best be called a pseudo tank. No it doesesnt work out well. This is one of the reasons jaguar has sucked. I agree that Vagabond is an anamoly. People like its ability to get a quick strike. But you wouldn't go toe to toe in it. So out come the stabs... I wouldn't start talking about minmatar 'speed' or signature balancing things again. These have other things they need to balance like our lack of cap among other things. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2006.06.17 13:37:00 - [13] ithildin, your post is wrong on so many points i wont correct it. You forget (deliberately?) to mention that basically the only races which can choose their dmg type are caldari (through missiles) and gallente (through drones). Minmatar can in theory do all dmg types however that feature is bought with less overall dmg (due to longer range ammo doing less dmg) and the inability to "focus" dmg like the other races can. Ontop of that you forget to mention that certain weak spots are open to all races (bar amarr who are indeed very limited dmg wise but do overall -build into the crystals- more dmg then any other race), read the explosive armor weakness and shield em weakness. However at the op, the stats arent really "unfair", sometimes its even to our advantage i.e. when applying only hardeners of a certain resist (due to limited lowslots) or when ure up against npcs who do mainly the dmg types you mentioned. btw, your assumption about stabs on hacs is wrong, most ppl fit them not because armortanking fails but because there are no med slot stabs which gurantee their 200+ mil investment to choose its battles (as no tank is substainable against an endless amount of enemies for an endless period of time), especially in combination with the high base agility and speed of the hacs.
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.06.17 13:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Kcel Chim ithildin, your post is wrong on so many points i wont correct it. You forget (deliberately?) to mention that basically the only races which can choose their dmg type are caldari (through missiles) Then read my post again. Regardless, most Caldari ships of the classes we are talking about here have KINETIC Missile damage bonuses. Quote: and gallente (through drones). 100% Th damage, 90% Kin, 81% Exp, and 68.75% EM damage. I don't think you should talk about what you don't know about. Quote: Minmatar can in theory do all dmg types however that feature is bought with less overall dmg (due to longer range ammo doing less dmg) and the inability to "focus" dmg like the other races can. Not focus damage? I have not heard this concept before. Yes, your shortest range ammo (EXP/EM ammo) does less damage than the other shortest range ammo. In turn your longer range ammos do more damage. Not that it matters with T2 ammo, however with T2 ammo you do same as everyone else, although with the prefered damage of other races (EXP > Kin or TH). But don't get me started on T2 ammo, though. T2 ammo is just BAD for the game Quote: Ontop of that you forget to mention that certain weak spots are open to all races (bar amarr who are indeed very limited dmg wise but do overall -build into the crystals- more dmg then any other race), read the explosive armor weakness and shield em weakness. Yes, Kinetic is the most dealt damage with thermal being a strong second. Quote: btw, your assumption about stabs on hacs is wrong, most ppl fit them not because armortanking fails<..> Either that's directed to someone else or you're taking it from a different thred. New sig coming soonÖ Tuxford's good for EVE.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.06.17 14:22:00 - [15] I think a better solution is to make some minm HACs with more mid slots. Wherever you went - here you are.
Arleonenis	Posted - 2006.06.17 15:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Ghoest I think a better solution is to make some minm HACs with more mid slots. agree... assault frigs too:) Balance in EVE
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2006.06.17 15:41:00 - [17] Dude, do you know anyting about minmatar? They're all speed and guns, not tanking like amarr. So, they have crap resists to kin. Thankfully, their EM/Thermal is insane for both armor and shields. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Arleonenis	Posted - 2006.06.17 15:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Dude, do you know anyting about minmatar? They're all speed and guns, not tanking like amarr. So, they have crap resists to kin. Thankfully, their EM/Thermal is insane for both armor and shields. This glorified speed isnt that big diffrence to make for virtually very low tankability when there are WEBS in game... understood? only exception is vaga but what a suprise vaga can shield tank to some degree check how many mids have munnin, now add afterburner (to use this glorified speed) and how many slots left? Balance in EVE
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:10:00 - [19] I think too many people believe that minmatar have insane speed to make up for their weaknesses. Well let me say having a 10 percent smaller sig and going 20 m/s faster is not quite the gift from the gods(devs) you think it is. Minmatar put more pride on their versatility than agility. That is why I didn't say make all t2 minnie ships shield tankers. Lets keep it realistic. Although I do hope there are some new shield tanking minnie ships around the corner.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Jim McGregor EM, Explosive,Kinetic,Thermal Cerberus shield (0,60,70,80) (210) Vagabond shield (75,60,40,60) (235) Cerberus armor (60,10,62,86) (218) Vagabond armor (92,10,25,67) (194) Cerb is a shield tanker and might use 2 EM hardeners and 1 invuln field to get good resists all over. Its basicly made to sit and tank damage. Vagabond stats look like it would be better at shield tanking, but it only has 4 medium slots. If you want to armor tank it, you can use 2 explosive hardeners and 1 kinetic to get decent resists all over. I would trade my Cerberus shield resists for the Vagabonds any day of the week. A single Invulernabilty Field II brings you up to 72% Thermal, 58% Kinetic, 72% Explosive, 82.5% EM.. not bad. A single Invul Field II for a Cerberus will only get you 30% EM, 72% Ex, 79% kin, 86% Thermal.. flying around with 30% EM is probably suicide considering it's the main damage of EMP ammo and lasers. On most of my Cerb setups all I can really afford to fit is a 55% Photon Scattering II, so I wind up with 55/60/70/80, so the Vagabond slightly edges me out in resists, which kind of sucks because obviously Vagabonds are well, rather fast and rely on their speed probably more than their shields, but a single invul field means it can pretty much tank as well or better than a Cerberus.. yes I am aware the Cerberus has 5 mids and the Vagabond has 4, but I would have to use my 5th midslot to match the Vagabonds resists, pretty much. There is really no point in whining about it though, because quite frankly Minmatar have i-win shield resists because simply get boosts to their racial enemies damage types which happens to be Amarr/Lasers and lasers do EM/Thermal which are the lowest shield resists and they get the full +75% to their EM from base 0 and +50% to thermal which comes out to 60%. Technically, it's fair, except Minmatar got some of the biggest increases (on shield) thanks to the fact T1 shield resists are so low vs EM/Thermal. ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Matrices Reborn I think too many people believe that minmatar have insane speed to make up for their weaknesses. Well let me say having a 10 percent smaller sig and going 20 m/s faster is not quite the gift from the gods(devs) you think it is. Minmatar put more pride on their versatility than agility. That is why I didn't say make all t2 minnie ships shield tankers. Lets keep it realistic. Although I do hope there are some new shield tanking minnie ships around the corner. That might be true for their battleships but you can hardly say the Vagabond isn't much faster than its counterparts... ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:53:00 - [22] Yea well the vaga is one of the few ships that's not an inty and is specialized for speed. Anyways getting back on topic here does anyone disagree that minnie resists are spread out wrong because maybe just maybe a Dev will look If I get enough people to agree. Similar to the Bc agility thread.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:56:00 - [23] Minmatar bonuses are actually the biggest if you look at the %s applied.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Matrices Reborn Yea well the vaga is one of the few ships that's not an inty and is specialized for speed. Anyways getting back on topic here does anyone disagree that minnie resists are spread out wrong because maybe just maybe a Dev will look If I get enough people to agree. Similar to the Bc agility thread. they are not spread out wrong at all, they get boosts to EM and Thermal, which gives a huge boost to shield but still leaves two low resists on armor same reason caldari is stuck with 0% EM even on their t2 ships, same reason gallente still have 10% explosive, ect ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:59:00 - [25] well while i severly dislike the minni t2 armour resists, i do think they are fitting. They are of great help against our racial enemy, and they go with the theme that minnies are bad tankers. If kali brings factional warfare those resists might be very handy. Death to Amarr and their legions of whiners! Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
BlackDog Rackh'am	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Arleonenis Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Dude, do you know anyting about minmatar? They're all speed and guns, not tanking like amarr. So, they have crap resists to kin. Thankfully, their EM/Thermal is insane for both armor and shields. This glorified speed isnt that big diffrence to make for virtually very low tankability when there are WEBS in game... understood? only exception is vaga but what a suprise vaga can shield tank to some degree check how many mids have munnin, now add afterburner (to use this glorified speed) and how many slots left? Actually, a zealot has a higher base speed than a muninn
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:21:00 - [27] Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am Originally by: Arleonenis Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Dude, do you know anyting about minmatar? They're all speed and guns, not tanking like amarr. So, they have crap resists to kin. Thankfully, their EM/Thermal is insane for both armor and shields. This glorified speed isnt that big diffrence to make for virtually very low tankability when there are WEBS in game... understood? only exception is vaga but what a suprise vaga can shield tank to some degree check how many mids have munnin, now add afterburner (to use this glorified speed) and how many slots left? Actually, a zealot has a higher base speed than a muninn yeah because muninn is supposed to be an arty ship and zealot is designed for pulse lasers ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Matrices Reborn Yea well the vaga is one of the few ships that's not an inty and is specialized for speed. Anyways getting back on topic here does anyone disagree that minnie resists are spread out wrong because maybe just maybe a Dev will look If I get enough people to agree. Similar to the Bc agility thread. they are not spread out wrong at all, they get boosts to EM and Thermal, which gives a huge boost to shield but still leaves two low resists on armor same reason caldari is stuck with 0% EM even on their t2 ships, same reason gallente still have 10% explosive, ect Notice how you mention only one hole for those ships. Now mention the HOLES in Muninns armour. Which should be made up by shield resists but it isn't because of the low kinetic res. Imo becuse of these 2 huge holes there is no reason to use a wolf over a jag.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 20:04:00 - [29] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/06/2006 20:04:30 Originally by: Matrices Reborn Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Matrices Reborn Yea well the vaga is one of the few ships that's not an inty and is specialized for speed. Anyways getting back on topic here does anyone disagree that minnie resists are spread out wrong because maybe just maybe a Dev will look If I get enough people to agree. Similar to the Bc agility thread. they are not spread out wrong at all, they get boosts to EM and Thermal, which gives a huge boost to shield but still leaves two low resists on armor same reason caldari is stuck with 0% EM even on their t2 ships, same reason gallente still have 10% explosive, ect Notice how you mention only one hole for those ships. Now mention the HOLES in Muninns armour. Which should be made up by shield resists but it isn't because of the low kinetic res. Imo becuse of these 2 huge holes there is no reason to use a wolf over a jag. Yes I am aware that the Muninn has two low resists on armor, however EM/Thermal are the racial enemy resists increased and I would think it would be kind of stupid to artificially compensate by increasing its other resists.. If you do that then Caldari and Gallente have every right to whine about their T2 resists as well, trust me 0% EM sucks ok. ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.17 21:58:00 - [30] I don't want to artifiacially compensate anything but you can tell the devs or gm's try to make up for the 2 holes in armour by making no holes in shield If you read the beginning post you might realize I want to have one hole in armour and one in shield since the minnie tank is interchangeable. And stop whining you plenty of mids which aren't going to be used for tackling to boost your EM resist on the cerb. By my definition of a hole(<50%) one hardener would be sufficient for the EM hole.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 22:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Matrices Reborn I don't want to artifiacially compensate anything but you can tell the devs or gm's try to make up for the 2 holes in armour by making no holes in shield If you read the beginning post you might realize I want to have one hole in armour and one in shield since the minnie tank is interchangeable. And stop whining you plenty of mids which aren't going to be used for tackling to boost your EM resist on the cerb. By my definition of a hole(<50%) one hardener would be sufficient for the EM hole. so if you have 10% explosive and 25% base kinetic than 1 hardener each should work fine, no? ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Wheya	Posted - 2006.06.17 23:09:00 - [32] If we can agree that EANII are too powerful for armor tanking than yes, the Minmatar armor resistance isn't that easy to tank. They need 2 active hardeners to fill the holes compared to all other races that have one resistance hole only. This becomes more of a problem as less low slots are available. Unfortunatly we Amarr do have problems to take advantage of this Minmatar problem. As an Amarr who usually armor tanks I don't complain about the amarr t2 shield resistance that also has some holes. I would prefer two additional low and med slots reserved for additional resistance modules only. This modules of course should only be available for t2 ships. So everyone can choose the resistance boost he prefers instead of this RP excuse. Same idea should apply to the 10% t1 racial boost.
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.06.17 23:11:00 - [33] I can see where the OP is coming from, but the vaga can have a broken bonus to lasers and it will still pwn. Nerf it then fix. === God is on the side with the best arti
Swiftness	Posted - 2006.06.17 23:44:00 - [34] Seen a lot of "nerf this" " boost that" threads recently, and it occured to me that some people will only be happy when everyone fly ships with the same optimals / resists / dps / speed / slot layout
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Swiftness Seen a lot of "nerf this" " boost that" threads recently, and it occured to me that some people will only be happy when everyone fly ships with the same optimals / resists / dps / speed / slot layout And it occurs to me that you have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread and if people didn't whine about nerfs and boosts where would Eve be right now and how balanced would it be?!
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Swiftness Seen a lot of "nerf this" " boost that" threads recently, and it occured to me that some people will only be happy when everyone fly ships with the same optimals / resists / dps / speed / slot layout The thing is that if noone is speaking up eventually the same thing will happen. "Everyone fly with the same optimals / resists / dps / speed / slot layout", but not because every ship will be the same, but because everyone will use the same ship because it is superior to everything else. Balancing is a neverending process, and it is fuelled by the *****es and whines of people.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.18 16:24:00 - [37] There's nothing wrong with minny t2 resists. The shield tankers only have a slight kinetic hole and the armour tankers have enough low slots to patch the holes, fit damagemods and wtfpwn most ships in the same class. Make Khanid Useful!
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2006.06.18 17:03:00 - [38] This is a whine thread, please lock it. Minmatar arent supposed to tank well, having two holes proves this. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.18 17:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg This is a whine thread, please lock it. Minmatar arent supposed to tank well, having two holes proves this. yes, the sleipnir and claymore have pathetic shield tanks Make Khanid Useful!

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