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Rollback ECM to the Way It Used to Be!

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Libby Jackson	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:04:00 - [1] Am I the only person who wishes ECM should work the way it used to? I think that going back to simple arithmatic on wether someone is jammed or not is much more sane than a situation where a frigate can jam up a battleship with a SINGLE racial jammer. Making it so that you NEED 4-5 multis to jam up a battleship will bring back balance to the system. Discuss. -------------------------------------------- 'I am going to be the next Sansha, I'm going to kill all the Amarrians and one clown.' 'Why the clown?' 'See! No one cares about the Amarrians!'
Mr Filth	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:14:00 - [2] this has been discussed in 5 threads already and we still got 2 sticky posts. I totally agree in this but all we can do is wait. As you can see, theyll boost eccm in the next patch - not that it helps anything. I doubt ccp will swallow their pride and give us back the old system where scorp and BB was EW ships.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:15:00 - [3] the old system was better than the current system, in that the current system is so overpwoered, but i dont think going back to the old system is the way -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Gronsak the old system was better than the current system, in that the current system is so overpwoered, but i dont think going back to the old system is the way did Gronsak sell his account? this actually makes sense I am all for nerfing/changing ecm, but we already had a gazilion threads about it, also there is a sticky about ecm, lets post there plz. Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
dalman	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:21:00 - [5] The problem really only is that the sensor strength on ECM vs ship is hugely overpowered. With the current ECM strength a BS should have upwards 45-50 in basic strength, not the current 20 ish. If they're boosting ECCM up to 60%, I guess a raise of base strength of BS to around 30-35 would be enough. Still no sign of it = ECM will still be overpowered and the only defence vs ECM is not ECCM but to use ECM yourself Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:24:00 - [6] once i jamed carrier in a rifter ^^^ join soar angelic
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:27:00 - [7] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter once i jamed carrier in a rifter ^^^ thats because ecm is chance based Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:29:00 - [8] Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: wierchas noobhunter once i jamed carrier in a rifter ^^^ thats because ecm is chance based well yeah still was fun join soar angelic
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:36:00 - [9] hell no Old blog
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:36:00 - [10] It would slightly be solved by having ECM stacking nerfed like all other EWar :p New sig coming soonÖ Tuxford's good for EVE.

dalman	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Ithildin It would slightly be solved by having ECM stacking nerfed like all other EWar :p Not at all. As the big problem is the effectiveness of just one single jammer. One single multi ECM (one slot) takes out 10 slots of the enemy BS 30% of the time. = per average you use 1 slot to disable 3 slots on the other ship. ^^ and that's the problem. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:50:00 - [12] Originally by: dalman The problem really only is that the sensor strength on ECM vs ship is hugely overpowered. With the current ECM strength a BS should have upwards 45-50 in basic strength, not the current 20 ish. If they're boosting ECCM up to 60%, I guess a raise of base strength of BS to around 30-35 would be enough. Still no sign of it = ECM will still be overpowered and the only defence vs ECM is not ECCM but to use ECM yourself The problem is that such a change would in turn make ECM somewhat useless - a scorp would have to fill 6-7 of his meds with multispecs to have an relyable chance to jam another BS without ECCM. Someone in in the main thread suggested changing how ecm works: - not loosing your target, but making it just unselectable (grayed out or something). For the bigger ships the real "damage" is quite often done already when ECMed, since retargeting can take ages. That way oyu could use eccm as actual countermeasure. - not having an all-or-nothing chance (aka be able to attack everything or nothing), but doing the ecm roll for every target (and redoing it each jamming cycle). So in gang/fleet combat a jammed ship won't be interly "useless", but would be on reduced effeciency since it probably won't be able to focus fire with the rest.
Ichabod Crane	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:12:00 - [13] The best way to balance the system is to make the countermeasures to ECM better, not by nerfing it back to what it was. In the old system if you didnt have more sensor strength than what was jamming you, you had no chance of getting lucky, you were locked down. At least in this system theres a chance for you to get a lock in if the jammer fails. -
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:21:00 - [14] /signed I liked that system
Freddy Krueger	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:48:00 - [15] /signed The "old" system was much better. Back then a Scorp & BB were viable damn useful ships. Nowadays every tom ** & harry throws a multi spec onto their ship & it turns into a simple matter of who gets a lock 1st. There used to be skill in using Ecm, now its *****s. Freddy.
Kashre	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:55:00 - [16] The old system is crap. Under the old system if you didnt have 6 mids, you didnt have a viable jammer ship. That means that ONLY the Caldari could reasonably use jammers with any kind of success to jam anything bigger than a frigate. The current system could certainly use some tweaking, but the chance based system actually makes something like the Belicose at least not be totally worthless in an EW role. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Libby Jackson	Posted - 2006.06.17 20:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Kashre Edited by: Kashre on 17/06/2006 19:57:48 The old system is crap. Under the old system if you didnt have 6 mids, you didnt have a viable jammer ship. That means that ONLY the Caldari could reasonably use jammers with any kind of success to jam anything bigger than a frigate. But when you buy a Scorp/BB jamming would be the ONLY thing you could do with it. Think about it. When do you ever do anything but PVP with blackbirds and scorps? And as for the previous poster who said that you would have to have 6-7 multis on a Scorp to make it work, remebmer that back in the day most battleships only had at the very most 12-15 points w/o ECCM. Basically if you were running a standard BB with 4 multispecs you would jam somoene up unless they had ECCM which would break the jam or started firing FOF missiles. -------------------------------------------- 'I am going to be the next Sansha, I'm going to kill all the Amarrians and one clown.' 'Why the clown?' 'See! No one cares about the Amarrians!'
Freddy Krueger	Posted - 2006.06.17 20:08:00 - [18] Why must every ship be a jammer, why must every battle consist of being jammed by non specific specialised jamming craft. This change to Ecm we have now over the original system has taken a huge amount of fun away from pvp; for any1 to say otherwise, either their heads are up their asses, they're too nubish to have used the old system, or more likely they are the perpetrators who constantly turn up in a battle & jam the living crap out of everything moving. We have specialised jamming craft, with lots of mids & high cpu. My scorp at the moment can jam a whole damn gang at times with my skills & a bit of luck; thats wrong, 1 racial per ship per jam is no fun. Freddy.
Padaxes	Posted - 2006.06.17 20:30:00 - [19] Quote: Am I the only person who wishes ECM should work the way it used to? Nope I agree 100% /signed
Kashre	Posted - 2006.06.17 20:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Libby Jackson Originally by: Kashre Edited by: Kashre on 17/06/2006 19:57:48 The old system is crap. Under the old system if you didnt have 6 mids, you didnt have a viable jammer ship. That means that ONLY the Caldari could reasonably use jammers with any kind of success to jam anything bigger than a frigate. But when you buy a Scorp/BB jamming would be the ONLY thing you could do with it. Think about it. When do you ever do anything but PVP with blackbirds and scorps? And as for the previous poster who said that you would have to have 6-7 multis on a Scorp to make it work, remebmer that back in the day most battleships only had at the very most 12-15 points w/o ECCM. Basically if you were running a standard BB with 4 multispecs you would jam somoene up unless they had ECCM which would break the jam or started firing FOF missiles. ] My point is this: 1> Jammers are the best pvp EW system. 2> Every race should at least be able to use them to some effect. If every race got a ship with 6+ mids and some kind of ECM bonus, then Id be all for putting it back the way it was. Hell I'd even tank dampeners. target-painting bonus ftl. All I care about is that all races can be in shouting distance of caldari. Caldari obviously are better at it (and rightly so) with their bonuses and mid slots, but personally I like being able to make a decent jammer platform out of my tempest or cyclone. And to that other guy: I dont have my head up my ass, I actually think that ECM brings a lot of flavor to PvP. It adds variety. And yeah it needs to be balanced a bit more, but I dont want every battle in eve to be a 10 second gank-fest with no brains required either. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa

Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Kashre 1> Jammers are the best pvp EW system. Maybe the solution is to make them stop being this, to bring them down to the effeciency of other EW like dampeners and tracking disruptors.
Bren Kasir	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:31:00 - [22] For anyone who says "but then only caldari will use ECM" have a look at the weapons each race uses. Caldari: Missiles/Guns + ECM (specialist ships) Gallente: Hybrids/Drones + Sensor dampeners (specialist ships) Amarr: Lasers + Drones/Missiles (specialist ships) Minmatar: Projectile/Missile ECM is the bloody caldari specialist weapon. Only 3 of their t1 ships are even designed for the bloody stuff! Why the heck should ECM be a game for all to play when it's been designed from the start as a racial weapon for a single race. By all means return it to its old state and make things such that you only jam in a BB/Scorp and BB/Scorp are _only_ ever used for jamming. That's the way the game shoudl be! How often do you see a domi not using drones, or a phoon not using torps. Bren Kasir --- You want fries with that?
Novarei	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:41:00 - [23] I can never understand why they changed it in the first place, there were problems with the system, but there was no need to come hit ECM with a big 'WTFstick II' and completely **** it up.
Bren Kasir	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:46:00 - [24] But the carebears called for it and lo it was done. Much like every other stupid idea implemented since I started playing. Bren Kasir --- You want fries with that?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Ichabod Crane In the old system if you didnt have more sensor strength than what was jamming you, you had no chance of getting lucky, you were locked down. At least in this system theres a chance for you to get a lock in if the jammer fails. That's umm... kinda the point of ECM should work. It is a form of damage mitigation like an active or passive resistance. It should work in similar fashion to how Shield/Armor resistance modules work NOT how turrets work. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Novarei	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Bren Kasir But the carebears called for it and lo it was done. Much like every other stupid idea implemented since I started playing. Bren Kasir Thats the point, what was it they were trying to do with ECM, because I can hardly believe it was intentional to **** it up so badly.
Bren Kasir	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:52:00 - [27] In theory the probability based ECM was a good idea, it meant that ships that jammed harder got a better chance of a jam (scorpion) and ships that jammed more could also jam well (blackbird). The problem is that the base probability is so high it's made a single ECM module one of the most effective items in the game, rather than the piece of useless junk it should be (especially when fitted to a non-ECM ship). I can see the original idea, but sadly it's impossible to work with a linear scale of probabilities. Far better would have been a far lower probability of a jam (reduce module strength) and boost the specialist ships further (+20% strength rather than +10%). Bren Kasir --- You want fries with that?
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:57:00 - [28] As long as the new system is NOT chance basied. Reasons being; ECM spefific ships can fail all together, which equals a dead ECM ship most of the time. Non ECM ships that relie on good old fashoned decent dmg nice tank can boost thier chances to win massivly, and if the ecm fails, no big problem. TBH im surprised that CCP even thought up this non sense... and then put it ingame Dont get me started on why the other (admitedly less 'powerful') EW is extremly reliable, and works everytime on ships that can tank better and do more dmg than the caldari equivelent. Its a mess, CCP are on it, we dont need any more EW/ECM threads.
Bren Kasir	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:59:00 - [29] Agreed. There have been at least 6 ECM threads popped up over the last couple of days. Time to let CCP do something about it. I think though that it's this seasons WCS whine topic, so we can expect more. Bren Kasir --- You want fries with that?
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.06.18 01:14:00 - [30] /signed its retarded to get jammed by 1 multi in a bs.



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