Originally by: Sarmaul

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Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:17:45

Originally by: Benglada

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Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.

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he means 5% for frigate and 5% for assault frigate (will be in with the next patch).

edit: gimmie a sec, I'm working on it :)

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Originally by: Foulis

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the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.

They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.

If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Originally by: Crellion

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but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?

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Yes, but seeing as the majority of wolves have a plate fitted it lowers their MWD speed and gives them poorer agility.

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.

They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.

If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/06/2006 20:46:10

Originally by: Crellion

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Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it

I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.

Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh

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a few things:

Munnin is artillery platform compared to the wolf which has now offically become an AC platform with falloffbonus and no optimal nous

nearly every minnie dmg ship gets 2 dmg boni because the natural dps of ac and arties is very low (its a racial balance thing, like the -10% cap use for amarr)

according to Sarmaul's spreadsheet the enyo outdamages the wolf all time as long it can stay close enough

wolf's strength lies in better speed and more dmg from further away (natural minnie combat style)

added: oh and plz show me the interceptor that can tank 5 light drones from an Ishkur with good drone skills oO

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Originally by: Darling Hassasin

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Originally by: Crellion

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Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).

I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.

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No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.

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What do I need quickfit for? 200IIs are not easyier to fit than IonII? About that "with all the trimmings" business... it depends on what you want exactly I guess?

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Originally by: Darling Hassasin

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Originally by: Crellion

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Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).

I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.

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No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.

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What do I need quickfit for? 200IIs are not easyier to fit than IonII? About that "with all the trimmings" business... it depends on what you want exactly I guess?

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Please don't get into a maths war with me as I'm far nerdier than you :).

200mm II CPU: 9
Ion II CPU: 13 (taken from in-game - item db is wrong atm)

Difference: 13 - 9 = 4
Difference for 4 guns: 4 * 4 = 16

Enyo CPU: 145 * 1.25 = 181.25
Wolf CPU: 125 * 1.25 = 156.25

Difference: 181.25 - 156.25 = 25

Ship Difference - Gun Differnce = 25 - 16 = 9

So there you have it. An Enyo with Ion IIs has 9 more CPU to play with than a Wolf with 200mm IIs.

Any other matters you wish to be owned on?

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Edited by: Naughty Boy on 18/06/2006 23:32:26

Originally by: Crellion

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Now not another WORD from you please or I ll get rly upset. Your spreadsheet is wrong in practice and thats that. Do 1 with 200s and Ions and we can take this more seriously.

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I suggest you download the free spreadsheet, and the free OpenOffice to use it. Then freely host the graph somewhere, with some free constructive criticism on top.

There are so many parameters it's obvious at times making a graph or a setup will make you chose values over others; assuming that a choice is always biased to suit one's own point instead of the opposition is a very irritating way of debating. And i'm being polite.

Thank you.

NB.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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Originally by: Crellion

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Thats unfair I have to go home to check ingame...

I guess atm owned (still of course 9 cpu is too small a difference for anybody to prefer 150s and I still believe the comarable to Ion set up is the 200 set up but thats just me. In maths you win.)

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i fired up quickfit and compared it with aswell, sarmaul did it already with 200 mm, i did it aswell with 150's

enyo with 4x light ion blaster II has 137.9 cpu left
wolf woth 4x 150mm II has 138,25 cpu left

as you can see they are nearly even and way more compareable than with 200's II

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Originally by: Crellion

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You are just upset about the naughty boy quote

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I'm not upset by that, rather by the immaturity of some posts and posters. You don't have anything solid to back up many claims yet discard anything solid on the basis that you don't feel that way, I don't think it's very constructive.

NB.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/06/2006 23:51:39
i checked ingame now, and yes ion II's use only 13 cpu, so enyo has still more cpu, even if you only use 150's II on wolf


i think with this we can bury your point of comparing 200's with ions


edited spelling

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Originally by: Rexy

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Edited by: Rexy on 19/06/2006 00:01:04

Originally by: Darling Hassasin

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Originally by: Rexy

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Originally by: Crellion

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Tired of quoting peeps.

@ Sarmaul: I said IMO
@ Rexy: tech I ammo is EMP, compare that to Enyo's resists if you like. Also you forgot the Void penalties for Enyo?

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cap nerf check
tracking nerf check

hail has that too , and more, unnerf hail !!

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Cap nerf is never equal on a ship that fres with out cap. Anyway thanks for replying. Did you by any chance compare the EMP dmg types with Enyo resists as I urged you?

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why on earth would i want to use emp, 60% em resist and 83% kinetic, remaining 40% fusion is nice though. but it judging by the damage graphs above miles behind an enyo using t2 ammo without speed nerfs

about the cap thing, shutdown your guns and you can tank again, if a wolf turns of it guns it still wont get much cap quickly, dunno what's worse tbh

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Wolf PG with 200mm II x 4: 45.6
Wolf PG with 150mm II x 4: 52.8
Enyo PG with Ion II x 4: 33.7

And that proves what exactly? That the Enyo has more CPU spare for hardening modules, while the Wolf has more PG spare for plates? Gosh, it's almost as if that's what I've been saying for the entire thread. As for the Wolf being able to keep the range - it's almost as if speed was some kind of Minmatar racial trait that allows them to control the range of engagement. What's this? Blasters with a short range bit high damage? Oh my, looks like we may just have discovered a Gallente racial trait.

Like the Enyo vs Wolf, Deimos vs Vagabond and Megathron vs Tempest, if the Gallente ship gets into range the Minmatar ship will die painfully and quickly. If the Minmatar pilot has his wits about him he will keep the range and use his large falloff to control (and generally) the engagement. End of story, so stop your *****ing.

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Originally by: Rexy

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Originally by: Crellion

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(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.

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with hail, wich it needs to get to the dps you quoted, it gets practically no useable cap reacharge, wich means dicating range with a few bursts of mwd seems fairly impossible.

the margin showed before seemed pretty big to me, and that was with hail, wich atm at the best of times has a limited use

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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Originally by: Crellion

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Sorry to have upset you but the point is this:
(1) Enyo with Ions has 9 more cpu and 11 less grid than Wolf as you say.
(2) This means that as they are both armour tankers and dont use EW and the like AT LEAST the two set ups are comarable.
(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.
(4) Add to that that there is no reason to use a hobg that does the same dmg type as your guns and will rather use a warrior that is fast enough to catch intys (if you are using blasters) and does a different damage type (expl arguably best ingame).This further diminishes the difference in DPS.
(5) After that having a dual dmg bonus on the Wolf and a single one on the Enyo appears to be a grave error.
(6) As you stated minnies select range and gallente do the uber damage.
(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.

That was the point of the OP and I couldnt mathematically prove it without your help.

Thank You.

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1) I do

2) Agreed

3) 200mm IIs do 3%-4% more DPS than 150mm IIs, as I stated earlier in the thread.

4) Erm, what? If you change to an explosive drone you are targeting the Wolf's weakest resistance, which is a bonus for the Enyo.

5) Then try looking at Minmatar ship bonuses - the pure combat ones have a double damage bonus (Rupture, Wolf, Vagabond, Muninn, Sleipnir). It's usually 25% ROF and 25% damage, but CCP doesn't like rate of fire bonuses on frigates. You should be glad they don't, as a 25% rof bonus is equivilant to a 33% damage bonus.

6) Yes. You seem to be stating the obvious

7) Blood was 4 months ago. Wolf has always dictated range. Small autocannons have always used 0 cap. It does explosive damage - that's because it's MINMATAR AND WE DO EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE. You can do it with your drone if you like.

8) And if the Wolf was worse than the Enyo in every department would that be fair? Like I said, if the Enyo gets close it wins. If the Wolf keeps it at range it wins. It seems that you want the Enyo to dominate every close-range encounter vs everything. And as I've said before, you really need to worry about the new Jag than the new Wolf.

And you're still an idiot.

Bugger off.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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Edited by: Tiuwaz on 19/06/2006 00:25:18

Originally by: Crellion

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(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.

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your entire post already fails at this point, you choose to ignore what doesnt suit you


check my post above yours if you still dont get it




i could have 1 million grid and surprisingly couldnt fit xl guns which should do awesome dmg, whats that you say? cpu constraints balance?


edit: meh sarmaul said everything better than i could, nerf sarmaul tbfh

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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You're the one trying to prove a point, so make the bloody graph yourself.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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Originally by: Crellion

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LOL The only curves on the graph were not the hail and the void curves m8.
As for your delirium tremens about XL guns save it for your m8s at school. I am referring to a simple comparison of 200II DPs with Ion IIs DPS with EMP and Antimatter no dmg mods no "if that then that" BS.

Of course you dont like what I say. Not because I am wrong but because the minnie lobby just uberized the Wolf and you hate the fact that someone points it out. Simple as that.

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i wasnt even talkin about the ammo and curves oO

you are trying to compare 200's with ions with is just plain wrong, and sarmaul proved that, as you were arguing that ac's use so much less cpu that it is compearable

you are trying to save that argument of yours by saying now , oke the wolf got more grid so i can now use 200's to compare with ions

i was bringing up the 1 million grid and xl guns to show that it doesnt work that way



you are saying the wolf is so uber, but the only ones who brought the numbers etc were us minnies, you just ignore everything that doesnt suit you

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