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Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 01:43:00 - [1] - Quote I am interred in deploying my own pos, the problem is I dont know which one to use. I want to get into production and invention, and I want to start off with a small control tower, any advises or help?
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 3772	Posted - 2014.06.23 01:48:00 - [2] - Quote Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.]
Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 01:53:00 - [3] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos?
Nex Killer Drunk3n Industry 76	Posted - 2014.06.23 02:08:00 - [4] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos? They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use.
Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 02:59:00 - [5] - Quote Nex Killer wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos? They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use. i still dont understand
Attivol 1	Posted - 2014.06.23 03:18:00 - [6] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Nex Killer wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos? They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use. i still dont understand People put up a POS because there were a limited number of industry slots in stations. After Crius there will be an unlimited number of industry slots in stations and therefore no reason to put up a POS.
Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 03:26:00 - [7] - Quote OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OK i understand now, why is CCP making eve easier? CCP WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?
Abadayos Caldari Provisions Caldari State 7	Posted - 2014.06.23 03:30:00 - [8] - Quote Attivol wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Nex Killer wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos? They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use. i still dont understand People put up a POS because there were a limited number of industry slots in stations. After Crius there will be an unlimited number of industry slots in stations and therefore no reason to put up a POS. I'm not on SiSi however isn't there a scaling install cost related to how many people are installing jobs in a station/system? Now I don't know yet but if you have a PoS set up, can you use that to cut down on install costs or do you still need to pay install costs at roughly the same cost as at a station at an owned PoS? Is it (cost) related to that 'multiple labs/factories reduces material cost' or what have you they are proposing? I really have to re-read the notes but with the new patch come 22nd July it seems there is almost zero reason to have a PoS in HS as the benifit of having oneis totally gone, may even end up[ costing more to have teh PoS set up to do your indi stuff as opposed to doing it in stations. It's all just a tad confusing to some.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1383	Posted - 2014.06.23 04:26:00 - [9] - Quote POS are cheaper on costs. POS have a 2% ME discount also. POS can also be set up in a system with no stations, so you won't have other people driving your costs up. POS can also have a bonus discount on POS for more modules of the same type set up. Now, if that works out cheaper than a station depends how much you use the POS.
Abadayos Caldari Provisions Caldari State 7	Posted - 2014.06.23 04:42:00 - [10] - Quote honestly didn't even think of the 'no station sytem = less cost'. Thanks for that insight along with everything else. Note to self: Read dev posts when your fresh, not after 10+ hour work days
Nex Killer Drunk3n Industry 76	Posted - 2014.06.23 07:03:00 - [11] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Nex Killer wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos? They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use. i still dont understand Same here... next time I'll not post when dead tired.
Elena Thiesant Sun Micro Systems 1379	Posted - 2014.06.23 07:26:00 - [12] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: OK i understand now, why is CCP making eve easier? CCP WHAT IS THIS MADNESS? They're not. They're replacing bad complexity "I have to put a POS up because there's no other choice for getting ME research done and because otherwise there aren't enough manufacturing slots", with good complexity (Ok, I could put up a POS, that will increase profits by X, increase throughput by Y but will add Z in costs, or I could do my manufacturing in system Blah where the installation costs are low, but that has poorer teams in general and it's further from the trade hub so more logistics costs, or I could ...."
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 3776	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:47:00 - [13] - Quote Elena Thiesant wrote: They're not. They're replacing bad complexity "I have to put a POS up because there's no other choice for getting ME research done and because otherwise there aren't enough manufacturing slots", with good complexity (Ok, I could put up a POS, that will increase profits by X, increase throughput by Y but will add Z in costs, or I could do my manufacturing in system Blah where the installation costs are low, but that has poorer teams in general and it's further from the trade hub so more logistics costs, or I could ...." Just kill me now.
Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 18:37:00 - [14] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Elena Thiesant wrote: They're not. They're replacing bad complexity "I have to put a POS up because there's no other choice for getting ME research done and because otherwise there aren't enough manufacturing slots", with good complexity (Ok, I could put up a POS, that will increase profits by X, increase throughput by Y but will add Z in costs, or I could do my manufacturing in system Blah where the installation costs are low, but that has poorer teams in general and it's further from the trade hub so more logistics costs, or I could ...." Just kill me now. Why kill you now?
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 3777	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:27:00 - [15] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Elena Thiesant wrote: They're not. They're replacing bad complexity "I have to put a POS up because there's no other choice for getting ME research done and because otherwise there aren't enough manufacturing slots", with good complexity (Ok, I could put up a POS, that will increase profits by X, increase throughput by Y but will add Z in costs, or I could do my manufacturing in system Blah where the installation costs are low, but that has poorer teams in general and it's further from the trade hub so more logistics costs, or I could ...." Just kill me now. Why kill you now? Needless additional complexity does not improve game-play by making it more interesting or engaging. It just makes it more annoying & frustrating. Aside from: * Slot changes, which are greatly needed. * Reprocessing and compression changes, which are somewhat sensible (batch size and compression volume both smell like hacks). * Removal of tower anchoring restrictions, which is long overdue. * Starbase Defense prerequisite of Anchoring 5 lowered to Anchoring 5, which makes sense and is also long overdue. The bulk of the remaining Crius changes, in my opinion, do not improve game-play, and in fact diminish it. Of course I'll adapt though, and just suffer with the losses and annoyances. I recommend checking things out on SiSi for yourself, to form your own opinion. before it is too late.
Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:30:00 - [16] - Quote What's SiSi
Li Quiao Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:30:00 - [17] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Elena Thiesant wrote: They're not. They're replacing bad complexity "I have to put a POS up because there's no other choice for getting ME research done and because otherwise there aren't enough manufacturing slots", with good complexity (Ok, I could put up a POS, that will increase profits by X, increase throughput by Y but will add Z in costs, or I could do my manufacturing in system Blah where the installation costs are low, but that has poorer teams in general and it's further from the trade hub so more logistics costs, or I could ...." Just kill me now. Why kill you now? Well, do you want to kill him now or wait 'till you get home?
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 3777	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:32:00 - [18] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: What's SiSi SiSi = Singularity = The main community test server (others: Duality, Multiplicity, Buckingham, Chaos) See the stickies for info on rules and accessing: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=271
Minarete Celestial Hoard TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 2	Posted - 2014.06.24 02:56:00 - [19] - Quote Li Quiao wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Elena Thiesant wrote: They're not. They're replacing bad complexity "I have to put a POS up because there's no other choice for getting ME research done and because otherwise there aren't enough manufacturing slots", with good complexity (Ok, I could put up a POS, that will increase profits by X, increase throughput by Y but will add Z in costs, or I could do my manufacturing in system Blah where the installation costs are low, but that has poorer teams in general and it's further from the trade hub so more logistics costs, or I could ...." Just kill me now. Why kill you now? Well, do you want to kill him now or wait 'till you get home? Noo! Keep him locked down till I get there, I need more Forum kills!
Tal'Rashas Urteil Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.06.24 03:01:00 - [20] - Quote how about mining, how is mining and refining going to be changed?
Felicity Love Ka'ra Shabuir Inc. 1957	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:07:00 - [21] - Quote Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: how about mining, how is mining and refining going to be changed? You should join a decent player corp... they'll show you the ropes and help you learn "stuff" faster... especially once the changes take effect for Cryus. Other than that, DEV BLOGS are your friend. "Psssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh" -á-- That ambiguous and pseudo-technical term used by management to describe, to staff, how frakking cool something looks inside their own heads.
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 1030	Posted - 2014.06.24 19:04:00 - [22] - Quote Attivol wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Nex Killer wrote: Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people. Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.] what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos? They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use. i still dont understand People put up a POS because there were a limited number of industry slots in stations. After Crius there will be an unlimited number of industry slots in stations and therefore no reason to put up a POS. well they have added one reason for a high sec POS. the compression array. Since mineral compression will be nerfed to about 55% mineral return,( i.e. building 425mm rail guns to ship to null a reprocess.) all high sec low end minerals getting shipped to null will be in the form of compressed ore. They will continue to build supers in null, and thus still need massive amounts of low end ores from high sec, so high sec, ore compression POSes will be needed.
Vincenzo Arbosa Locust Assets 45	Posted - 2014.06.24 19:43:00 - [23] - Quote Perhaps I am not understanding the Crius changes, but to me it would seem that the update will actually increase POS usage. Removal of slot limits on manufacturing or research will make starting a job somewhere easier, but the costs will increase exponentially dependent upon the activity level of the station/factory, right? Manufacturing within a few jumps of any hub will become ridiculously expensive if that is the case, which (should) prove to be an incentive to anchor a POS and be free of those surcharges and still maintain proximity to the hub. Now that POSes will be able to be anchored in all security levels, and with no faction standing, I would imagine that there will be more popping up, especially in the 0.8 - 1.0 systems that are free and clear near hub systems. It will all come down to whether the avoidance of the surcharges will offset the cost of fuel to keep the POS up. Right? Am I missing something? "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."-á
Shahai Shintaro Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 48	Posted - 2014.06.24 20:04:00 - [24] - Quote Vincenzo Arbosa wrote: Perhaps I am not understanding the Crius changes, but to me it would seem that the update will actually increase POS usage. Removal of slot limits on manufacturing or research will make starting a job somewhere easier, but the costs will increase exponentially dependent upon the activity level of the station/factory, right? Manufacturing within a few jumps of any hub will become ridiculously expensive if that is the case, which (should) prove to be an incentive to anchor a POS and be free of those surcharges and still maintain proximity to the hub. Now that POSes will be able to be anchored in all security levels, and with no faction standing, I would imagine that there will be more popping up, especially in the 0.8 - 1.0 systems that are free and clear near hub systems. It will all come down to whether the avoidance of the surcharges will offset the cost of fuel to keep the POS up. Right? Am I missing something? My understanding is cost increase is by how busy the system is not the station. The only thing the pos saves you is the tax. The question is, is that cheaper than pos fuel
Vincenzo Arbosa Locust Assets 45	Posted - 2014.06.24 20:21:00 - [25] - Quote Ah, ok.. I will need to re-read the dev logs as that was not my impression. That would make systems with multiple factory-stations rather poor places to operate then after this update. Whereas somewhere like Urlen, at 1.0 just two jumps from Jita with no factory stations and only 20 moons, would likely be a great place for a manufacturing POS. The cost of fuel, in that case, would likely be miniscule in the face of the surcharges of any factory stations that close to Jita. I am guessing there will be much pew-pew for those types of moons. "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."-á
Li Quiao Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2014.06.24 20:24:00 - [26] - Quote Shahai Shintaro wrote: My understanding is cost increase is by how busy the system is not the station. The only thing the pos saves you is the tax. The question is, is that cheaper than pos fuel Cost will be by system, correct. But if you set the POS with an assembly facilities/research facilities/whatever up in a system that has no stations with such facilities, your cost will be quite low. as there will be nobody doing those jobs on stations to jack up the price. And the costs to use these things are going up sharply--that's the price we're going to pay for not having a limited number of lines any more. An intelligently sited, heavily used POS could very well save you more than your fuel costs.
Shiloh Templeton Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 132	Posted - 2014.06.25 23:23:00 - [27] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Aside from: * Slot changes, which are greatly needed * Reprocessing and compression changes * Removal of tower anchoring restrictions * Starbase Defense prerequisite of Anchoring 5 lowered to Anchoring 4, The bulk of the remaining Crius changes, in my opinion, do not improve game-play. Form your own opinion. before it is too late. Assuming it's not too late already to influence the Crius release, what are some of your specific concerns or changes you would like to see? You might get some player support as Mynnna has attempted to do with his POS defense suggestion.
Kusum Fawn State Protectorate Caldari State 486	Posted - 2014.06.26 00:41:00 - [28] - Quote Li Quiao wrote: Shahai Shintaro wrote: My understanding is cost increase is by how busy the system is not the station. The only thing the pos saves you is the tax. The question is, is that cheaper than pos fuel Cost will be by system, correct. But if you set the POS with an assembly facilities/research facilities/whatever up in a system that has no stations with such facilities, your cost will be quite low. as there will be nobody doing those jobs on stations to jack up the price. And the costs to use these things are going up sharply--that's the price we're going to pay for not having a limited number of lines any more. An intelligently sited, heavily used POS could very well save you more than your fuel costs. You seem to have missed this, but if there are other people in the same stationless system doing industry jobs your prices will also get affected. You, in your stationless system could be paying similar costs as industry stationed systems. It is also important to not that not all stations have industry slots, so you can still have a station system with no industrial activity except for pos installed jobs. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Kusum Fawn State Protectorate Caldari State 486	Posted - 2014.06.26 01:10:00 - [29] - Quote Shiloh Templeton wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Aside from: * Slot changes, which are greatly needed * Reprocessing and compression changes * Removal of tower anchoring restrictions * Starbase Defense prerequisite of Anchoring 5 lowered to Anchoring 4, The bulk of the remaining Crius changes, in my opinion, do not improve game-play. Form your own opinion. before it is too late. Assuming it's not too late already to influence the Crius release, what are some of your specific concerns or changes you would like to see? You might get some player support as Mynnna has attempted to do with his POS defense suggestion. Pretty much as soon as its published in a dev blog the meat of the change is not negotiable and it will take three to six weeks of 100 page threads and dropped subs to get necessary changes to happen. Other then the changes listed there by Tau, some other Crius changes are : 1 ME/TE calculation changes to fit 10 point scale 2 Copy/manufacture time Leveling 3 "Extra" materials folded back into regular materials 4 Invention bpc consumption changes and max run changes 5 Science and Industry tab revamp "featuring" graphics over words/numbers -> universal bp list - including from in cans 6 cross region Job installation / remote completion 7 BPO jobs can no longer be started in POS lab from in station (the bpo must be in the pos to be used at the pos) 8 Jump fuel use increase (which will affect the pos fuel costs to some degree) 9 Array job stacking bonus (more online modules of similar types lend a modifier to the cost of the job install) 10 Universal Job index which affects job installation costs globally (including in your pos) 11 System Job Index which affects job installation costs system wide (including in your pos) 12 Job cost scaling relating to the item being manufactured (cost of item (global market index) is figured into all bp job install costs, on top of Universal and system job index costs) 13 Material level bonus fluctuation for arrays and stations depending on ? (im not actually sure what all these factors are, nor am i sure exactly how they are calculated, but they seem to vary by day even with no "teams" active in the system) 14 Teams, NPC's for hire with a wide variety of bonuses. There are quite a few more, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4614151#post4614151 Please note that the threads the devs are working on are becoming more and more spread out even when referring to the same things. and working very hard to ignore the fact that all of this is very interrelated. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Shiloh Templeton Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 132	Posted - 2014.06.26 16:12:00 - [30] - Quote Kusum Fawn wrote: here are quite a few more. ... Please note that the threads the devs are working on are becoming more and more spread out even when referring to the same things. and working very hard to ignore the fact that all of this is very interrelated. Thank you for the concise summarization. I was trying to find out what are Tau's specific concerns about the upcoming release. When I started Eve last fall I quickly learned that Tau is one of the good guys on the forums. He always provides useful information in a straight forward, never condescending manner. So it's surprising to see such a fatalistic attitude from him. If we knew what the concerns are we could either add to the feedback to CCP, or make sure we are prepared for the impact where possible.

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