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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5758
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
myjita wrote: I've never ever stated that a small alliance should be able to hold that system, should it's powerful owners want it back.
Ok, So you DONT have a problem with squatters being evicted, but....
myjita wrote:The fact of the matter is this, no matter how you look at it.
1. Place big structures (SBUs)
2. Get raped by supers and titans before they online. (Ships that 20 mins earlier were on the opposite side of the universe)
3. Achieve 0 damage.
Not even as much as an important structure damaged. .
You apparently do
You dont see a contradiction in the two things you say above? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6848
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:16:00 -
[62] - Quote
myjita wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:The OP is under the impression that a small scale alliance should be able hold a system in their own right without making bargains for survival with those with the bigger club who surround him. Not true. I wish that a small scale alliance can do some initial damage, before getting raped. I've never ever stated that a small alliance should be able to hold that system, should it's powerful owners want it back. The fact of the matter is this, no matter how you look at it. 1. Place big structures (SBUs) 2. Get raped by supers and titans before they online. (Ships that 20 mins earlier were on the opposite side of the universe) 3. Achieve 0 damage. Not even as much as an important structure damaged. Not even it's paint scratched. All because of a dumb SOV system combined with ridiculous power projection from supers.
How does anything you say stop 'big alliances' from just leaving alts with supers in every corner of EVE?
That's why the whole 'power projection' thing is a scape goat. Since 2009 I've been in Atlas, IT alliance, Against All Authorities, Raiden, NCDot, Initiative Mercenaries and TEST. In all that time i've been in exactly 2 "cross the universe" fleets in a carrier, both times to get to a super capital fight/Titan kill (never because "oh look, some small guy took a system").
Listening to some of you, you'd think it happens every time a 'small group' steps foot in null sec. It reminds me of my mission running days (2007-8) when every carebear in my corp claimed that EVERY entrance into null and low sec was camped 24/7 so why bother even trying to go there. Imagine my surprise when i actually went to low and null and rarely encountered a gate camp. Some myths are hard to dispel it seems.
I'm willing to bet isk right now that the OP's 'small group' (if he has one, can't tell, NPC alt) has never even tried to claim sov anywhere.
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myjita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:myjita wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:The OP is under the impression that a small scale alliance should be able hold a system in their own right without making bargains for survival with those with the bigger club who surround him. Not true. I wish that a small scale alliance can do some initial damage, before getting raped. I've never ever stated that a small alliance should be able to hold that system, should it's powerful owners want it back. The fact of the matter is this, no matter how you look at it. 1. Place big structures (SBUs) 2. Get raped by supers and titans before they online. (Ships that 20 mins earlier were on the opposite side of the universe) 3. Achieve 0 damage. Not even as much as an important structure damaged. Not even it's paint scratched. All because of a dumb SOV system combined with ridiculous power projection from supers. How does anything you say stop 'big alliances' from just leaving alts with supers in every corner of EVE?
The above is exactly what I'm hoping will happen eventually. Forces, be they alts, spread out over vast territories. Please bring it. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5758
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
myjita wrote:
The above is exactly what I'm hoping will happen eventually. Forces, be they alts, spread out over vast territories. Please bring it.
Why? What would that achieve? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
myjita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote: I've never ever stated that a small alliance should be able to hold that system, should it's powerful owners want it back.
Ok, So you DONT have a problem with squatters being evicted, but.... myjita wrote:The fact of the matter is this, no matter how you look at it.
1. Place big structures (SBUs)
2. Get raped by supers and titans before they online. (Ships that 20 mins earlier were on the opposite side of the universe)
3. Achieve 0 damage.
Not even as much as an important structure damaged. . You apparently do You dont see a contradiction in the two things you say above?
If it's not apparent to you yet, that this whole discussion it about swift retribution, then there is no hope for you. I don't care if some dude decides to send his 10K minions to go **** someone, as long as it's not a 20 minute operation. (and don't use the 'It's takes time to get midpoints ready etc. That's a bullshit excuse.) |
myjita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:
The above is exactly what I'm hoping will happen eventually. Forces, be they alts, spread out over vast territories. Please bring it.
Why? What would that achieve?
It would make it a plausible tactic to attack different fronts simultaneously. Also, you argue as if every big alliance out there has the capabilities as fx. PL.
Spreading supers thin is a huge upgrade imo. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5758
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
myjita wrote:
If it's not apparent to you yet, that this whole discussion it about swift retribution, then there is no hope for you. I don't care if some dude decides to send his 10K minions to go **** someone, as long as it's not a 20 minute operation. (and don't use the 'It's takes time to get midpoints ready etc. That's a bullshit excuse.)
You live in a universe where provided fuel is available it takes seconds to jump billions of kilometers
Why is this scifi trope hard for you to accept when it has existed since the 1950s? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5759
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:46:00 -
[68] - Quote
myjita wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:
The above is exactly what I'm hoping will happen eventually. Forces, be they alts, spread out over vast territories. Please bring it.
Why? What would that achieve? It would make it a plausible tactic to attack different fronts simultaneously. Also, you argue as if every big alliance out there has the capabilities as fx. PL. Spreading supers thin is a huge upgrade imo.
Because you dont think super powers should exist, right?
You dont believe the game should be able to simulate geopolitical power struggles between huge empires? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
myjita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:
If it's not apparent to you yet, that this whole discussion it about swift retribution, then there is no hope for you. I don't care if some dude decides to send his 10K minions to go **** someone, as long as it's not a 20 minute operation. (and don't use the 'It's takes time to get midpoints ready etc. That's a bullshit excuse.)
You live in a universe where provided fuel is available it takes seconds to jump billions of kilometers Why is this scifi trope hard for you to accept when it has existed since the 1950s?
Please refrain from using lore to validate a broken game mechanic. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5759
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
myjita wrote:
Please refrain from using lore to validate a broken game mechanic.
Please refrain from assuming something is broken because you dont feel it fits with your view of how the universe should work "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
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myjita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:49:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:
The above is exactly what I'm hoping will happen eventually. Forces, be they alts, spread out over vast territories. Please bring it.
Why? What would that achieve? It would make it a plausible tactic to attack different fronts simultaneously. Also, you argue as if every big alliance out there has the capabilities as fx. PL. Spreading supers thin is a huge upgrade imo. Because you dont think super powers should exist, right? You dont believe the game should be able to simulate geopolitical power struggles between huge empires?
Sigh, where have I ever stated that I don't wish supers existed? Yes, I do believe in huge power struggles. I can't remember saying otherwise.
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5759
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
myjita wrote:
Sigh, where have I ever stated that I don't wish supers existed? Yes, I do believe in huge power struggles. I can't remember saying otherwise.
Then please do enlighten me as to the purpose of your proposed changes if not that "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
myjita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 14:58:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:
Sigh, where have I ever stated that I don't wish supers existed? Yes, I do believe in huge power struggles. I can't remember saying otherwise.
Then please do enlighten me as to the purpose of your proposed changes if not that
I don't understand your question. I don't see why limiting the power of jump-drives will remove supers from the game. I don't see why it would deny large empires to battle each other.
Sorry :( |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6849
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 15:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
myjita wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:myjita wrote:
The above is exactly what I'm hoping will happen eventually. Forces, be they alts, spread out over vast territories. Please bring it.
Why? What would that achieve? It would make it a plausible tactic to attack different fronts simultaneously. Also, you argue as if every big alliance out there has the capabilities as fx. PL. Spreading supers thin is a huge upgrade imo.
And how long do they stay "spread thin.
Ah, you think that people won't jkust build more supers. You are thus repeating the "CCP Titan Mistake"
When CCP made Titans they thought that because they were so expensive and took so long to build, no one would ever have a lot of them, they would be 'flag ships' and 'mobil stations' etc etc.
The underestimated players ability to think outside the box when it comes to gathering resources and capital. At the end of the day there were so many titans that CCP had to nerf the beejesus out of them just to keep the game from becoming Titans-Online. Many of us in null remember the evil that was the 500/mil per hour Titan w/tracking link scimitar escort in Anomalies.lol.
Same thing here. if you create the problem that "big empires" just need to have super-capital forces placed in strategic locations, they'll just buy up or train up as many 'strategic alts' as they need, build as many supers as they need, and maintain the status quo of "I will stomp you out anywhere you are".
Meanwhile, the 'small guy' who was hoping to break into null by attacking a weakness in the 'spread out' big alliance's defense will now have it worse. In stead of JUMPING across the universe to stomp the small guy (which takes MINUTES), now all the 'big alliance' has to do is LOG IN it's "Northwestern fleet o Alts", and what took minutes to achieve before now takes SECONDS. Because logging in is faster than traveling via multiple cynos while having to stop to transfer fuel from Fleet hanger to fuel bay......
In discussions like these I often wonder why the 'idea' person is blind to the fact that he's violating 'Malcanis' Law' and if CCP does what he wants, he'd actually be worse off. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6849
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 15:18:00 -
[75] - Quote
myjita wrote: I don't see why limiting the power of jump-drives will remove supers from the game.
It won't it will add supers to the game. Jump Drives allow you to use 1 ship in mutiple places. Nerf Jump Drives, the solution is now multiple ships.
Guess who can build supers at will: Big alliances like Goons.
Guess who can't: the small groups you want to 'help'.
ie OP must be goon alt planting false flag.
Quote: I don't see why it would deny large empires to battle each other.
If the large empires can battle each other, what can they do to the 'small entitiy' you mention in the OP?
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Toshiro Hasegawa
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 15:35:00 -
[76] - Quote
What was great about EvE in the beginning was the size. It was huge and took ages to get from somewhere to somewhere else .. so you had to plan and make choices.
the ability to move clones .. or jump ships where you need them at a drop of a hat reduced that initial vastness of space.
I dont know how .. - not just suggest a solution .. not that smart ... but seems to me that when you make it easier to quickly "project force" over huge distances you are weakening what was for me a key ingredient of the game.
And trust me I have been on both side of this debate .. I left the game the first time when the logistics of 0.0 prior to jumpdrives and other such tools came into the game. I appreciate how jumping supplies and such make GÇ£lifeGÇ¥ easier in the game.
But the flip side is you can move thousands of pilots from one side of the galaxy to the other in hours and that reduces the whole strategic side of the game to tactics. As the whole system was developing it worked. .. when not everyone and their donkey had a titan bridge chain, .. but now they do and the new reality is its not that hard to project force far far far away from your GÇ£homeGÇ¥ base ..
I would rather see 100 small wars all over than 4-5 big ones in a few places .. bringing in fighters from all over. I would rather see people have to fight to keep choke points from high to null open to move logistics through. I would like to see nullsec way more self sufficient .. and not rely on jumping stuff back and forth incessantly.
For me its not a QQ thing .. not in the slightest .. its where I would like to see the game .. and the limitations I see in it now. I donGÇÖt mind the current system .. it is what it is but I would like to think with the potential it has it can be better.
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5774
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 15:44:00 -
[77] - Quote
What I would like to know is;
What rationale has anyone for wanting to keep the natural progression of the way the universe will develop back artificially?
If you constantly change the rules to prevent the accumulation of virtually-insurmountable imperial power, what is the purpose of striving for it in the first place?
Isnt it normal for people to want to form ever larger and larger blocs of power?
I dont want to see that artifically fracture into hundreds of small conflicts. If anything, this would render null uninhabitable as no one would be able to use the resources as they would constantly be at war.
What I would like is to see what happens when the donut is complete
Once there are two or less MegaPowers, will one crumble? will interest wane and it implode? Will there be civil wars? Will anyone finally get around to attacking an Empire with their vast armadas and deposing those faceless tyrants?
If these things are not a) the natural way things or going and/or b) more interesting than the suggestions already given about changes, then Im afraid that there is a strong difference not only in what many people believe that EvE is about but also what makes it a unique game with infinite possibility. "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
Toshiro Hasegawa
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 15:52:00 -
[78] - Quote
There must be War .. all the time all over the place .. its the only way of things in EvE.
Fighting is fun, and ships and mods must die for indies to have a raison d'etre. the spice must flow. |
Marsha Mallow
1148
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 16:07:00 -
[79] - Quote
What is the purpose of a capital power projection nerf anyway? It seems like people want various results with one fix, eg.
- breaking up the blocs
- allowing smaller groups to take sov
- making it more difficult for caps to jump into subcap fleets
- curbing blobbing, promoting smaller fights
- making the Universe larger and more immersive (from Toshiro's comments)
- making logistics more challenging and allowing people opportunity to attack supply lines
I'd support all of those, but it really seems delusional to think a projection nerf will address them properly. The blocs have overcome numerous nerfs and changes upto now where smaller groups haven't, so why would this benefit them any more than prior changes?
I don't think there is a magic bullet. The issues listed might appear to have a common theme, but there are other factors. Some relate to sov mechanics, others to combat or logistics. Wouldn't it be better to compehensively identify the problems then come up with solutions for each of them? Fair enough, there is some overlap, but a single fix for so many issues is likely to be a half-arsed solution at best. At worst it would exacerbate the problems, or there'd be no measurable change.
If we're talking simple solutions, why not just remove all caps from the game and revert back to pre-Dominion sov? TO THE RIPARDMOBILE! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6854
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 16:26:00 -
[80] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:
I don't think there is a magic bullet.
Magic bullet. That's the term I was looking for. Damn this Alzheimers...what were we talking about again?
But yea, people want a magic bullet. You see it all the time in here and F&I. Just nerf local and everything will fall into place. Get rid of timers and fights will happen all over the place. Just nerf power projection and we'll have a way to fight big alliances.
Yea, I know I've posted it before, but it's relevant damn it, because sometimes even CCP believes this BS. Quote:tl;dr There's now a reason to fight for better space again: sov upgrades will spawn better cosmic anomalies in lower truesec space; cosmic anomalies spawned by methods other than sov upgrades are unaffected.
There are no magic bullets.
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
292
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 16:30:00 -
[81] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Sov sucks. Power projection is not the reason. Centralized objectives are the reason. I was going to make some reply about goons, propaganda, control of CCP's dev's, etc, then figured "why bother?" Power projection will be fixed when it is fixed. seagull's graphs, charts, and comments point to some attempt at changes probably in mid / ate 2015. Rest assured, any changes to power projection will not weaken the cartels' control of the space they currently control. True that, when it takes longer for everyone to get from A to B we have a stagnant situation.
Moving from A to B is fine. Moving from A to Z in a few minutes is not fine. Don't Panic.
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5784
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 16:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Moving from A to B is fine. Moving from A to Z in a few minutes is not fine.
Why not? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |
Of Montreal
SwAmPLaNds
3
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 17:12:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sounds like socialism |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 17:42:00 -
[84] - Quote
Agreed, no magic bullets will be found to 'fix' power projection. If there was, we'd see a drastic change in the eve landscape, nothing short of a major upheaval. I'd bet CCP is trying very hard to avoid making something like that happen. We're seeing baby steps instead.
1. Warp speed changes. We have these now, and the impact was pretty significant. Moreso regarding subcaps, but again, baby steps. Smaller ships now have a farther reach, whereas the bigger ships are staying closer to home (not counting titan bridges yet).
2. Jump drive fuel consumption. This is a stealth power projection nerf. Yes you can still jump your cap fleets just like you did before, but its going to cost a lot more. While you are at it those costs are going to carry down to every ship you buy in the future, as they will all become more expensive, just as logistics costs go up. This combined by reduced freight capacity...
The costs are starting to mount. The nullsec blocs are not getting all the revenue they used to get (moon goo, drone region nerfs, etc). Even goons have had to start relying on renters to subsidize their expenses.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5368
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 17:46:00 -
[85] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:2. Jump drive fuel consumption. This is a stealth power projection nerf. Yes you can still jump your cap fleets just like you did before, but its going to cost a lot more.
Thing is, this isn't going to have much of an effect on the larger entities. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
745
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 18:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: I wish CCP would nerf power projection just so we could see what new scape goat the unsuccessful and uncreative 'we're a small group' types could come up with.
You can already see what happens when power projection gets nerfed severely... W-space is kind of the extreme opposite to the current state of power projection in k-space: no cynos and even 'gate' travel is severely restricted. (Not just the mass restrictions, but also that you can't easily travel to a specific system at any given time) What do we have in w-space? Right! Small corporations being able to 'own' systems. Sure, the larger corporations can evict them from their system, but they usually don't. Why don't they? Well, for one there isn't much of a reason to take systems that you are not going to use. In contrast to null sec an empty system in w-space isn't owned by anyone. Second reason is the nerfed power projection: You can't hold large amounts of systems in w-space without spreading your forces among them - which in turn makes those systems more vulnerable. As a result you only stick to the systems that you are actually using. I'm not saying that this extreme sort of power projection nerf would be a good thing for null, but it gives you a hint in what direction it could push null sec. Small groups holding w-space is almost entirely due to mass restrictions. Without mass restrictions it would be very easy to move fleets around w-space as long as the hole doesn't run out of lifetime while your fleet is going through. Large groups can probe entrances as easily as small groups, and larger groups would no longer have to seed ships into holes for evictions. Without mass limits, w-space would turn into two or three giant groups fighting for control in under a month. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10523
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 19:06:00 -
[87] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:SFM Hobb3s wrote:2. Jump drive fuel consumption. This is a stealth power projection nerf. Yes you can still jump your cap fleets just like you did before, but its going to cost a lot more. Thing is, this isn't going to have much of an effect on the larger entities. I'm opposed to it because I think the reasons behind it are flawed, not because I think it'll really affect me or us that much. No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
85
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 19:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:SFM Hobb3s wrote:2. Jump drive fuel consumption. This is a stealth power projection nerf. Yes you can still jump your cap fleets just like you did before, but its going to cost a lot more. Thing is, this isn't going to have much of an effect on the larger entities.
It will take some time. Even more if your alliance is footing the bill for SRP and cap fuel. Even with the current market fuel speculation I bet those who are paying the bills, and doing the logistics, are already worried about whats coming. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
748
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:SFM Hobb3s wrote:2. Jump drive fuel consumption. This is a stealth power projection nerf. Yes you can still jump your cap fleets just like you did before, but its going to cost a lot more. Thing is, this isn't going to have much of an effect on the larger entities. It will take some time. Even more if your alliance is footing the bill for SRP and cap fuel. Even with the current market fuel speculation I bet those who are paying the bills, and doing the logistics, are already worried about whats coming. I would think that fuel cost increase would hurt smaller groups that don't have entrenched supply lines more. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5372
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 23:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:It will take some time. Even more if your alliance is footing the bill for SRP and cap fuel. Even with the current market fuel speculation I bet those who are paying the bills, and doing the logistics, are already worried about whats coming.
No one really cares to be perfectly honest. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
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