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Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to know how CCP works against inflation. (If they do it.)
First I read this old and this newer forum thread.
But I think both have a wrong understanding of how virtual world economy works. Especially that you can not park your ISK save. It does not matter if you park your ISK into plex or expensive ships - that is all speculating. Only CCP drives in- or deflation.
In- and deflation is only driven by how much money CCP puts into and takes out of the eve universe.
How CCP puts ISK into eve universe (generate ISK):
- npc pirate bounty
- mission reward
How CCP takes out ISK form eve universe (destroy ISK):
- skill books, BPOs
- repair service
- insurance service
- LP Stores
- reprocess/manufacturing/inventing service
- plex
- war decs
- taxes (PI, sell/buy orders)
Anything else?
How does CCP work against inflation/deflation? Now it would be nice to know how much ISK CCP puts into the game and off the game. It is kinda hard to believe that the community generates more ISK with npc pirate bounty and mission rewards than it destroys with all the other points from the other list.
What do you think? Do we have any informations about that?
Because all the prices and rewards are static, CCP can't setup anything to work against inflation or deflation. Or am I wrong? Maybe they take the balance with a simple control of what missions are offered and what kind of pirates spawns in any belts or sites.
So if we have an inflation, because there is too much money in our eve universe, CCP just spawns more smaller pirate ships in all belts and if there's a deflation, they spawn more bigger ships with better ISK/time ratio.
What do you think?
Offtopic: But what happens if 90% of all manufacturer would stop doing their business? I guess then it would not matter how much money we got, because there are not enough items to buy. Everything would be expensive - but a solution wouldn't be to generate more ISK - because ISK is in this situation not the problem.
Summary Be nice to your manufacturers! ;) can't delete signature |

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
1244
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Winter is coming? TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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VonCricer
The Spring Synchrodyne
0
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
I do not believe Plex takes isk out of the game, it is a net 0 effect. |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
VonCricer wrote:I do not believe Plex takes isk out of the game, it is a net 0 effect.
Of course it takes money out of the game. CCP wants 600M or something from you for a plex. That means that CCP takes 600M out of the game. can't delete signature |

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5822
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
So... CCP are operating like the Federal Reserve or the Bank Of England; controlling inflation through Quantitive Easing or destruction of hard currency and interest rates?
Um.. isnt that it? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:So... CCP are operating like the Federal Reserve or the Bank Of England; controlling inflation through Quantitive Easing or destruction of hard currency and interest rates?
Um.. isnt that it? Yes - but only IF they do it like I wrote. I have no idea if this is their approach to keep ISK stable. can't delete signature |

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5822
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:So... CCP are operating like the Federal Reserve or the Bank Of England; controlling inflation through Quantitive Easing or destruction of hard currency and interest rates?
Um.. isnt that it? Yes - but only IF they do it like I wrote. I have no idea if this is their approach to keep ISK stable.
Ok
Why do you ask? "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
i would like to know if someone knows how CCP controls in- and deflation. I posted my idea or thoughts, but I am not sure what they are doing.
Because in one thread someone said plex price is raising 15% a year - so I would assume that our inflation is at 15% - that is kinda high.
can't delete signature |

Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
224
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
wait, what? CCP isn't the one taking the 600+m for your plex, it's another player. Bartender, I'll have what he's having... make it a double. ISK is destroyed, per se, when accounts holding it go inactive or unsub completely. It bleeds here and there in conversation fees, broker fees, and taxes on transactions. That said, it's a trifle compared to the pouring faucet that are missions and the like. |

De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2373
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:wait, what? CCP isn't the one taking the 600+m for your plex, it's another player. Bartender, I'll have what he's having... make it a double.
Not always.
CCP keeps a pretty close eye on the rate at which PLEX prices change, and they have been known to sell plex directly in game themselves to control that rate of change*. In that case, the money goes into some CCP vault as is not returned to the economy like it would be if the purchase was made from another player.
*Note: It's my understanding that it's the rate of change of the price (+öp) that CCP cares about, not necessarily the actual in game price (p). GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. Schr+¦dinger's Hotdropper |
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5824
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:i would like to know if someone knows how CCP controls in- and deflation. I posted my idea or thoughts, but I am not sure what they are doing.
Because in one thread someone said plex price is raising 15% a year - so I would assume that our inflation is at 15% - that is kinda high.
Supply and demand on that one, old boy
PLEX isnt going up because of inflation;
PLEX rising is CAUSING inflation
And for CCP thats just fine
Of course, it sucks that T2 ships have doubled in price in just three years, but then as PLEX have too that menas the ship is the same value as it was, its just the Isk/$/-ú/Euro has dropped signifigantly.
Of course, thats not counting the value of the RW currencies, but I guess it depends on your measuring stick
Isk is far easier to make than it was 3, 4 or 5 years ago, so that probably has an effect too "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Isk is far easier to make than it was 3, 4 or 5 years ago, so that probably has an effect too
That means it is far easier to farm npc pirates or do missions now?
Because there is no other way to generate money into eve universe. Everything else like trading or hauler contracts is just cash flow inside eve universe and has nothing to do with in- and deflation. can't delete signature |

Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Insurance ADDS ISK to the economy.
Unless you mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, but in the initial post it's in the wrong category.
And aren't there still NPC buyorders around? Especially for WH loot? Is that still a thing?
I get the impression that you're not really qualified to question CCPs doings. EVE ONLINE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22582
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:In- and deflation is only driven by how much money CCP puts into and takes out of the eve universe. Not quite. CCP does none of the things you list. Players do, by choosing which activities to pursue. CCP can try to adjust the flows by altering the faucets and sinks, but what actually drives the movement is player activity.
Oh, and PLEX does not affect the money supply. Here's the complete list:
ISK Faucets:- NPC bounties: Exploration, Belt rats, Missions
- NPC buy orders: Trade goods, Sleeper loot, Overseer effects, Tags
- Agent rewards: Mission rewards, Mission time bonuses, Incursion rewards, Deposit repayment
- Insurance payout
- GM actions: Reimbursement for lost pods
- Character creation
ISK Sinks:- Market taxes & fees: Broker fees, Sales tax
- NPC sell orders: Blueprints, Skill books, Trade goods
- NPC station services: Repairs, Jump clone installation, Medical clone installation/upgrade/station change, Science and industry slot rental, Ship insurance
- NPC station office fees: Rent, Impound penalties
- Wardecs
- Reimbursed player bounties.
- Sovereignty fees
- PI fees: Building PI structures, Import/export tax (from NPC-owned and highsec customs offices)
- Corp & alliance fees: Corp creation, Alliance creation, Alliance upkeep, Creating/awarding medals, Corp registry ads
- Agent fees: (Certain) LP store items, Locator agent services, Courier missions w/ deposits
- CSPA Charges
- Smuggling fines
- GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
- Character deletion (including the GÇ£soft sinkGÇ¥ of accounts being frozen or banned, and the even softer sink of accounts being abandoned forever)
Item Faucets:- Resource harvesting: Mining, Salvaging, PI, Moon mining
- NPC Destruction: Rats & structures in missions/exploration sites, Belt rats
- NPC Sell orders
- Exploration mini-professions: Hacking, Archaeology
- Agent hand-outs: Courier missions packages, Storyline mission rewards
Item Sinks:- PC destruction: Ships, POSs, POCOs, Personal deployables
- NPC buy orders
- Agent requirements: Courier, trade, kill-and-collect, and mining mission hand-ins
- Using one-use items: Skill books, Implants, Drugs, Module charges
- Siphons
- POS Fuel
Item Transformations:- Industry: Manufacturing, Reacting, PI, Outpost deployment
- Refining
- Compression
- (Certain) LP store items
Quote:Now it would be nice to know how much ISK CCP puts into the game and off the game. It is kinda hard to believe that the community generates more ISK with npc pirate bounty and mission rewards than it destroys with all the other points from the other list.
What do you think? Do we have any informations about that? Google is your friend. We have tons of information about this, along with the measures they have to adjust the habits of players.
Quote:But what happens if 90% of all manufacturer would stop doing their business? Almost nothing, as others would instantly fill the void.
Quote:CCP charges less ISK for one plex? CCP doesn't charge any ISK for PLEX. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |

Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia to the rescue! EVE ONLINE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |

KaarBaak
299
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Solitaire Project wrote:Insurance ADDS ISK to the economy.
Unless you mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, but in the initial post it's in the wrong category.
And aren't there still NPC buyorders around? Especially for WH loot? Is that still a thing?
I get the impression that you're not really qualified to question CCPs doings.
I think it's a matter of insurance payout vs insurance purchase. In the commercial world, the total taken in in policy premiums > payouts. Hence, it should be a net sink.
Whether EvE functions this way...I'm not sure.
BTW, in MMO terms, the words are "sinks" and "faucets."
KB |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:But what happens if 90% of all manufacturer would stop doing their business? Almost nothing, as others would instantly fill the void.
Well, of course, but this questions was about that nobody fills the void ;)
Tippia wrote:Quote:CCP charges less ISK for one plex? CCP doesn't charge any ISK for PLEX. I thought you can buy plex time bonus for ISK. But I think that I missunderstood it. So you buy it from people which bought it for real money, okay - so they have no influence - alright.
I think you missed clone costs in your list. can't delete signature |

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5825
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote: That means it is far easier to farm npc pirates or do missions now?
Because there is no other way to generate money into eve universe. Everything else like trading or hauler contracts is just cash flow inside eve universe and has nothing to do with in- and deflation.
No I mean its easier to get Isk into your wallet than ever. If its twice as easy to afford something that is now twice as expensive in figures, then there has not been an y inflation in real terms.
Jurik McMoney wrote: (1) CCP charges less ISK for one plex? I thought they charge more ISK for one plex. That would mean, that you take more ISK out of game instead of leave it in game for a plex.
(2) And if you buy a plex for euros or dollars, it has no influence on in- or deflation. Because it does not generate any ISK in eve universe.
(1) CCP doesnt charge Isk for PLEX. Buying PLEX with Isk doesnt take money out of the game at all.
(2) Of course it does. If a PLEX costs -ú15 today and gets you 750m isk, and then the value of the -ú changes, you will be able to afford or or less Isk, depending on that change.
BTW, I leave this in Tippia's care now, she's well better at all this stuff than I am. "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. There is no Saviour but James 315 and Omir Sarakusa is his Prophet (PBUH) La ilaha illjames |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22583
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:Well, of course, but this questions was about that nobody fills the void ;) It's a particularly silly hypothetical, but in that case we don't know because it will depend on what else happens in the economy.
Tippia wrote:I thought you can buy plex time bonus for ISK. But I think that I missunderstood it. Yes, that and a few other thingsGǪ like how faucets and sinks work, how the money supply works, and what they're balanced against. 
Quote:I think you missed clone costs in your list. No, it's a station service. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Now it would be nice to know how much ISK CCP puts into the game and off the game. It is kinda hard to believe that the community generates more ISK with npc pirate bounty and mission rewards than it destroys with all the other points from the other list.
What do you think? Do we have any informations about that? Google is your friend. We have tons of information about this, along with the measures they have to adjust the habits of players.
Well - I used google and didn't find any information about what I asked. There were no information about if they change any spawn rates of NPCs or if they do something else to work against inflation.
PS: ISK Sinks -> clones can't delete signature |
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Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I thought you can buy plex time bonus for ISK. But I think that I missunderstood it. Yes, that and a few other thingsGǪ like how faucets and sinks work, how the money supply works, and what they're balanced against. [/quote]
I doubt that I misunderstood how money supply and faucets and sinks work. My list was not complete, but in the end everything is static. And I can't find any information about CCP's control of in- and deflation.
Like I wrote, they would have to control spawnrates or something similar to work against inflation when we've to many mission runners and rat hunters.
Because they do not in- or decrease any service costs. can't delete signature |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22584
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:Well - I used google and didn't find any information about what I asked. There were no information about if they change any spawn rates of NPCs or if they do something else to work against inflation. You google-fu is weak then. All the things on that list can and have been adjusted, as have all the items on the corresponding item faucet/sink list. Every item is a tool at their disposal to adjust inflation, should it prove necessary. Inflation rarely reaches the levels where it's needed, though, especially since it often just evens itself out on its own by transitioning into periods of deflation. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jurik McMoney wrote:Well - I used google and didn't find any information about what I asked. There were no information about if they change any spawn rates of NPCs or if they do something else to work against inflation. You google-fu is weak then. All the things on that list can and have been adjusted, as have all the items on the corresponding item faucet/sink list. Every item is a tool at their disposal to adjust inflation, should it prove necessary. Inflation rarely reaches the levels where it's needed, though, especially since it often just evens itself out on its own by transitioning into periods of deflation.
When did they change the price of an item from sink or faucet list?
This happens way to late and is not dynamically - it changes only during big announces and patches. But not during runtime.
Maybe that is why we have a 15% inflation every year. can't delete signature |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22585
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:When did they change the price of an item from sink or faucet list? They have changed what's available at which prices, and changed trade goods into manufactured goods.
Quote:This happens way to late and is not dynamically - it changes only during big announces and patches. But not during runtime. It happens when it needs to happen, which is very very rarely since the economy is largely self-balancing at this point.
Quote:Maybe that is why we have a 15% inflation every year. We don't. In fact, right now we have a slight deflation after a long period of very minor inflation. You really should look up the fanfest economy presentations from the last couple of years before diving into this topic because almost all your questions and misconceptions are addressed in them. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |

Li Quiao
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:VonCricer wrote:I do not believe Plex takes isk out of the game, it is a net 0 effect. Of course it takes money out of the game. CCP wants 600M or something from you for a plex. That means that CCP takes 600M out of the game.
No, they don't. That's another player who wants ISK out of you (it's more like 730 mill, too). The money passes into his hands and stays in the game. CCP does not sell PLEX for ISK; it only sells PLEX for dollars. |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Since you know everything - what is the current inflation in eve?
Tippia wrote:It happens when it needs to happen, which is very very rarely since the economy is largely self-balancing at this point. I think you've too much trust into a self balancing economy. And when I see prices a year ago and now, I doubt that inflation is not close to 15%.
And any yearly inflation is bad for an economy. Especially when you've the possibility to zero it.
All that I can read from you is that you do not know it either. I'll take a look at some prices over many years to get a better understanding of the real inflation. can't delete signature |

Jurik McMoney
Exires Logistics
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Li Quiao wrote:No, they don't. Thanks and yeah, got this a few postings above already :) I'll edit my starting post when I'm at home :) can't delete signature |

VonCricer
The Spring Synchrodyne
1
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
One concept I think may be missing is the Velocity of isk or how many times a single isk is spent to buy goods or services over a period of time. Just because there are a bunch of people ratting (or hitting other isk faucets) doesn't mean they are spending the isk they got right away, many save it to use later. So there is a lag between when the faucet turns on and when the inflationary affects actually happen. Due to this lag and its unpredictable nature it would be very hard to dynamically adjust faucets and sinks |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
759
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Li Quiao wrote:CCP does not sell PLEX for ISK; it only sells PLEX for dollars. ...also because handing out PLEX for ISK would be a great way to go broke.  |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22587
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Posted - 2014.06.25 17:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jurik McMoney wrote:Since you know everything - what is the current inflation in eve? -1-3% by just eyeing the slope of the thing.
Quote:I think you've too much trust into a self balancing economy. And when I see prices a year ago and now, I doubt that inflation is not close to 15%. That's because you're looking at a few things that aren't particularly relevant for the economy as a whole. PLEX, for instance, is pretty much entirely economy-neutral. It could conceivably create some velocity, but is itself mainly a hedging vehicle at this point GÇö its price is created by a bubble from people speculating on that same price.
Quote:And any yearly inflation is bad for an economy. Especially when you've the possibility to zero it. No, some yearly inflation is a good thing since it shows that there is growth in the economy and that there is room for more. While the current deflation is too small to be any real worry, it really would be better if we saw the same level of inflation instead.
Quote:All that I can read from you is that you do not know it either. I'll take a look at some prices over many years to get a better understanding of the real inflation. If you look at prices over many years, we have periods of double-digit deflation. Hell, stuff that used to cost tens of millions now cost less than one. Again, go watch the fanfest economy presentations GÇö it's all there, and it all uses proper analysis of the actual data. All of it tells the exact opposite story of what you're imagining. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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