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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.09.28 01:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 29/09/2003 10:37:46
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 28/09/2003 01:16:00
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 28/09/2003 01:15:13
The text for the learning skill says it reduces the training time by 2 percent per level. The reality is that 1/2 of the 2 percent gain is applied to each attribute. Since the formula for SP generation is Prime Attrib + (1/2 of Secondary Attrib) per minute. By applying the 1 percent per lvl of learning to all skills give the following formula:
(1/2 Learning Percentage x Prime Attrib) + (1/2 * (1/2 Learning Percentage x Secondary attrib)) per minute
This means that Learning only give 1 percent per level, not 2 percent. HOWEVER, that increase the SP generaged, it does not reduce the time by 2 percent per level for that the learning formual should be:
((1-Learning Percentage) x Skill Points Required) / (prime attrib +(1/2 seconds attrib))
CCP needs to fix this. Then attributes would display correctly and the skill would actually work right.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Insulter
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Posted - 2003.09.28 01:39:00 -
[2]
You complete geek 
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Righteous X
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Posted - 2003.09.28 01:54:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
You complete geek
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GraveDigger
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Posted - 2003.09.28 11:25:00 -
[4]
Quote:
You complete geek
omg thats some funny ****!!
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.09.28 18:26:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ansuul on 28/09/2003 19:15:05
Yes this is geekish, but the above math is somewhat wrong.
Multiplication is distributive, so (a + b) * c is (a * c) + (b * c). So if you get (P + S/2) SP/minute, then with a learning factor of L (i.e., 1 + level*0.02), you get (L * P) + (L * S/2).
You don't get half of L...
Now, it is certainly true that this does not equate to saving 2%/level of the training time. Since the factor used to figure out the time savings is in the denominator of an equation, the effect is non-linear, and actually decreases with each succeeding level. The reductions per level go: 1.96%, 1.89%, 1.81%, 1.75%, 1.68%. At level 5, your total time savings is 9.09%
Yes, one could ask to have the learning skill changed to match the description, but it is far more likely that they will change the description to match the skill.
(Edited to fix a typo in my equations...)
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.28 19:09:00 -
[6]
2% increase in skill points earned per minute
Thats what the description should read.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.09.29 10:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 29/09/2003 10:41:45
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 29/09/2003 10:36:01
In general your correct about math, but wrong about the implimentation. I believe that CCP made the same mistake that your making. i.e. What is done is all attributes are mulitplied by 1+L/2 (where L is the learning lvl percentage). This means that the formual becomes (1+L/2) * (P+S/2) which does not match the discription. It should be (1+L)*(P+S/2) to get the described reduction in training time.
or
The skill text should read "increases attributes by 1 percent per level"
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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anthonieak
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Posted - 2003.09.29 14:55:00 -
[8]
It is rip off I agree with now \i lvled all my skills.
Now new implants com which boost your skils by +3.
While other learned for BS skill's you learned for learning skills. They make lots of money now and you still sitting in your cruiser, also they buy for lots of money the implants and learn as hard as you for all the skills even harder then you did.
Why did not give implants directly also the boosters which will come later have the same effect.
***********************************************
Missing Lola Gold Since 6-4-2004
Miner Addicted |
Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.29 23:25:00 -
[9]
Miri, I'm not entirely clear where you get the (P + S/2)*(1.01L). I have done extensive work on this topic and i do not find that to be the case. But Ansuul is 100% correct as far as i know. To clarify:
(P+S/2)(1.02L)=training speed
even this equation implemented correctly will not give 2% reduction in training time as Ansuul has already pointed out it becomes the denominator and is therefore nonlinear. This equation gives 2% increase in training speed. As far as i can tell this is true in game.
whether it is worth it to train learning skills completely depends on both your characer and your personal goals. The best way to decide is to get a full grasp of exactly how learning and attribute skills affect training time, and what it takes to get back the time you lose training them.
Don't be discouraged anthonieak, it may not be as bad as you think.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.09.29 23:41:00 -
[10]
I base the .01 per level of learning vs the .02 per level on the attributes displayed. Check yourself, and you will see that the attributes displayed are correct for a one percent per level increase, but not for two percent.
You can test this yourself, is the level of the attribute displayed equal to 1+L times base attribute or 1+L/2 times base attribute.
I checked mine as I leveled learning and it was not 2 percent. It was 1 percent. Since the SP generated are based you your attributes and Learning is being directly applied to attributes, I have seen nothing that indicates that we are actually getting the 2 percent per level.
And yes, even at 5 per for level 5, I think in the long run it is worth it, I just would like it to be what it was advertised to be.
That is beside the point that you do not decrease training time by X percent if you just multiply the denominator by 1+X percent.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.09.30 04:13:00 -
[11]
My skill training time works exactly as expected with a 2%/level learning bonus. First, ignore the displayed attributes. They are showing you your attributes based on: trunc(attribute * (1 +.02*learning). The actual calculation carries all the decimal places, so the displayed values are totally misleading. Any attribute of 13 or higher with learning 4 or higher displays +1 higher than it is actually.
Once you know what your attributes are, simply use the well known formula SP/(P+S/2)*(1+.02*L)
Example, I am training social 5 at the moment. I took a snapshot, and at the point I had 85470/250000, I had 4d+13:39:05 to train. I have charisma 13 and int 22 (which is actually displayed as charisma 14 and int 23, btw). So the formula gives:
(256000-85470)/((13+22/2)*1.08) = 6579.09 minutes
Doing the math, this is 4d+13:39:05.37, which equals the time the client is telling me.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.09.30 09:11:00 -
[12]
Using your own example... if you have 22 int, why does 1+.02*Learning display as 23 if you have learning at lvl 4 or higher? It should be 24.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Anisitol
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Posted - 2003.09.30 13:08:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Using your own example... if you have 22 int, why does 1+.02*Learning display as 23 if you have learning at lvl 4 or higher? It should be 24.
It seems to be truncated to an integer, not rounded.
22*1.08 = 23.76 --> 23 |
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