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Is ECCM to powerful now?

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Pord	Posted - 2006.06.21 18:57:00 - [1] Ok Yes i do agree ECM was too powerful before as most of the time you would jam some1. Now with the new ECCM your looking on a rook (the most powerful jamming ship in game) with maxed out skills looking at what 15 on a racial jammer ahainst a sensor strength of a BS with 1 ECM looking at 40. Chance of jamming = (15/40)100 = 37.5% chance and thats with racial. Consider the amout of trainning time this would take compared to using 1 t1 ECCM. Remember that ECM DOES NOT STACK! and the events if you have more than 1 are mutually exclusive (1 doesnt affect the other). So this means you have 37.5% chance for a few months trainning with a T2 racial! They loose 1 mid slot which isnt to much to arm tankers in all fairness they can loose a AB with no hard effect. However say you were in a scorp now. You would have something like 2 sensor boosters (incase of snipers) which means only 6 more mids. These would HAVE to be ECM. Now they are more than likely racial to get the range against snipers. Take into account that the scorp isnt as good at jamming as the rook. There needs to be a middle ground!!!! Roughnecks - Pord THE ROUGHNECKS ARE HERE! Rad***
Laboratus	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:01:00 - [2] Well, we really don't know yet. Time will tell if this will be enough to make ppl fit the ECCMs. Quite a few ppl will still stubbornly refuse to fit them, but we'll see.
Krulla	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:06:00 - [3] Edited by: Krulla on 21/06/2006 19:06:17 Uh. This means that on a Rook with three jammers, your enemy is pretty much permanently jammed. And most ECM setups fit more than 3 jammers. I don't see the problem here? Tarkin > Omfg, frigs are such bs. Red 5 > lolol, lern 2 play plz noob SIG HIJACK!!11 RAWRR!!1- IMMY
Pord	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Krulla Edited by: Krulla on 21/06/2006 19:06:17 Uh. This means that on a Rook with three jammers, your enemy is pretty much permanently jammed. And most ECM setups fit more than 3 jammers. I don't see the problem here? Sorry but how long does it take to use a rook and then consider the costs. You are also looking at HAVING to use T2 ECM and also you HAVE to use racials for a decent chance of jamming. Sure we use more than 3 but its their role to jam people. You wont ever perm. jam some1 as there is only a chance everytime. Sure before like i said it was more often than not. Look how long it takes to train to use 1 T1 eccm and then consider this will nullify most ecm people/modules. Remember ECM doesnt stack like other modules and its only a chance of jamming unlike other modules aswell. Roughnecks - Pord THE ROUGHNECKS ARE HERE! Rad****
Yodohime Kibagami	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 21/06/2006 19:14:26 I dont think its too much for a eccm to stop a specced ECM users ECM because the ECCM is a defensive module and is absolute garbage against ships that dont have ECM, the ECM is a offensive module so putting one -didnt- significantly weaken your offensive power.
Pord	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:15:00 - [6] Id consider T1 to be 65-70% NOT 80% << WTF ITS NOT T2! then maybe have T2 as 80% THis yeah ok fine id be happy as a trade off Roughnecks - Pord THE ROUGHNECKS ARE HERE! Rad****
Telkanes Serkant	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:18:00 - [7] Aye 80% is high :\| I think the Nerf bat of happy abandon may be back, and pointed Directly at Caldari....with Lub sent to Mimmatars! -Telk Life is a game :) (Downtimes the *****!)
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:19:00 - [8] Why don't you compare that amount to something other than a BS and see what happens? What are your %'s for jamming caracals...mallers...BC's...etc. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Pord	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:27:00 - [9] ok frigate will get a strength of a BS with an ECCM T1 almost which means id get for moth and moths of trainning and T2 racial on a rook (15/19)100 = 78.3% chance Yes this is more often than not id jam. I should be able to jam a small ship like this which you can fly straight away and use the module almost straight away considreing the MONTHS it takes to train Roughnecks - Pord THE ROUGHNECKS ARE HERE! Rad***
Giant Haystacks	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Pord Ok Yes i do agree ECM was too powerful before as most of the time you would jam some1. Now with the new ECCM your looking on a rook (the most powerful jamming ship in game) with maxed out skills looking at what 15 on a racial jammer ahainst a sensor strength of a BS with 1 ECM looking at 40. Chance of jamming = (15/40)*100 = 37.5% chance and thats with racial. Consider the amout of trainning time this would take compared to using 1 t1 ECCM. Remember that ECM DOES NOT STACK! and the events if you have more than 1 are mutually exclusive (1 doesnt affect the other). So this means you have 37.5% chance for a few months trainning with a T2 racial! They loose 1 mid slot which isnt to much to arm tankers in all fairness they can loose a AB with no hard effect. However say you were in a scorp now. You would have something like 2 sensor boosters (incase of snipers) which means only 6 more mids. These would HAVE to be ECM. Now they are more than likely racial to get the range against snipers. Take into account that the scorp isnt as good at jamming as the rook. There needs to be a middle ground!!!! people who rely on ecm carry more than 1 jammer, that 37.5% chance with 1 is an 85% chance with 4. Stronger eccm is fine imo, it keep jammers as a powerful mod but stops 1 ship being able to reliably keep 3-4 bs out of a fight.
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:28:00 - [11] Per the example above: Can't even remember how many mids the rook has, but assuming a sensor booster or 2: 1 jammer = 37.5% 2 jammers = 60.9% 3 jammers = 75.6% 4 jammers = 84.7% 5 jammers = 90.5% Now lets look at what the odds are that you get at least 1 jam over a span of 2 cycles: 1 jammer = 60.9% 2 jammers = 84.7% 3 jammers = 94.0% 4 jammers = 97.7% 5 jammers = 99.1% Those odds still look pretty good to me. And ECCM fitted means that you're not so easily taken care of by 1 jammer like a rook can normally do. Also keep in mind that an ECCM does absolutely NOTHING For you unless you're being jammed. Look at other mid slot EW counters: Dampeners -> Sensor boosters: they counter damps fairly well at mid/close range, but they also give you huge benefits otherwise. Tracking disruptors -> Tracking comps: maybe not the best counter, but they help, and they still give you a nice benefit regardless of whether or not you are being tracking disrupted. So at the end of the day, I think ECCM's are FAR from overpowered. Most people won't even bother fitting them since they do nothing for you in the case where you're not jammed. ECCM projectors would be borderline overpowered, but the gang locking system sucks, and they would require lots of coordination that I think deserves a big payoff. shamis
Johnny Bravo	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Pord Remember that ECM DOES NOT STACK! and the events if you have more than 1 are mutually exclusive (1 doesnt affect the other). So this means you have 37.5% chance for a few months trainning with a T2 racial! They DO stack. For example, for 2 modules combined with each 37.5% chance to jam it would be 100-(100-37.5)(100-37.5)=61% chance to jam. Not that bad. Especially, if you consider re-locking time.
Keta Min	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:35:00 - [13] no it's not. better balanced now, though the chance based system still sucks imo.
Pord	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:36:00 - [14] Thats not a stack it is a better chance but NOT A STACK! Also do dampners and distrupyers have a chance of hitting or do they hit 100%? OH WAIT NO they hit 100% Roughnecks - Pord THE ROUGHNECKS ARE HERE! Rad****
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Pord Thats not a stack it is a better chance but NOT A STACK! Also do dampners and distrupyers have a chance of hitting or do they hit 100%? OH WAIT NO they hit 100% Within their optimal they do, outside of that, no.
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.21 19:39:00 - [16] Yes the numbers 'may' be too high but consider this. You still have a fair chance of jamming someone. He has to gimp his setup on the off chance that you are using ECM. At the moment it would seem that ECM is over powered. This is a very effective way of countering it which still won't guarantee you immunity from jamming, stopping ECM being the over powered setup that it is without an effective counter. (other than ECM itself Yes, armour tankers may well be able to drop a module to fit ECCM, but they they had to do the same thing to fit ECM and i don't suppose there was any complaints about that. 6 and 2-3's if you ask me
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.21 20:41:00 - [17] 37.5% to COMPLETELY disable an enemy ship. While the other forms of EW are 100% mostly, they don't achieve nearly as much. The enemy can still do alot when under the influence of a tracking disruptor or sensor dampener (or being target painted to include all 4 ). With combat being as short as it nowadays is, losing 20 sconds + lock time to a single jam can be crucial. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Spacehulk	Posted - 2006.06.21 20:46:00 - [18] Pord has worded it better than I could. Time to be good at ECM = Months Time to counter ECM = Minutes ECM = Mid slot ECCM = Mid + Low slot Fitting ECCM = Partial compromise to ship setup (2-3 slots max) Fitting ECM = Multiple slots to be able to jam ECM specialized ships = poor shields/armour ECCM ships = Whatever you like ECM ships = Not only Rooks ECM cycle = 20 secs .. If you fail you could end losing your ship in less than 20 secs ECCM = Not chance based and barely uses cap ECM ships = No drone bay ECCM ships = May have drones and use FoF for defense If you spend 5-6 months just getting your weapon skills up just to have them cut you'd be disappointed to. Prior to the recent ECCM boost when I jam a ship and it used ECCM modules I could tell off the bat. ECCM should be looked at again and the values should be adjusted to acceptable levels or remove the chance based ECM to what it used to be and where it really stacked. If its broken then you break it some more in hopes of fixing it and you end up breaking it further then whats the use. If people used ECCM in the past and every ship had one ECCM module it would have made a difference in a gang being jammed but no one ever thought if doing that !
Sammiel	Posted - 2006.06.21 20:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Pord Thats not a stack it is a better chance but NOT A STACK! You are correct of course, its better than normal stacking in Eve since each additional ECM mod past the first doesn't suffer a diminished effect. They all have exactly the same ability to jam.
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.21 21:03:00 - [20] Edited by: Forsch on 21/06/2006 21:09:19 Originally by: Spacehulk Pord has worded it better than I could. Time to be good at ECM = Months Time to counter ECM = Minutes ECM = Mid slot ECCM = Mid + Low slot Fitting ECCM = Partial compromise to ship setup (2-3 slots max) Fitting ECM = Multiple slots to be able to jam ... You can say the same for the other forms of EW. A noob with a sensor booster can also counter a t2 dampener. Or a tracking computer a tracking disruptor. Also "you need more than 2-3 slots for ECM"? What nonsense is that? Someone who uses 2-3 slots for ECCM is gimping his setup and it doesn't even help him if no one is putting ECM on him. (as opposed to tracking computers, sensor boosters) You cannot rely on ECM to jam an enemy constantly. That is way too powerful and also why ECCM got changed. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.06.21 21:10:00 - [21] WTS clue to caldaris with thug pics! The demand sure seems to outweigh the supply. Clue must be a T2 item... Anyway.... Originally by: Spacehulk Time to be good at ECM = Months Time to counter ECM = Minutes Time to use ECM = minutes Time to be good at ECCM = n/a Originally by: Spacehulk Fitting ECCM = Partial compromise to ship setup (2-3 slots max) Fitting ECM = Multiple slots to be able to jam Fitting ECM = However many slots you want to devote to an always useful module Fitting ECCM = 3 slots (for any kind of reliable effect) to sacrifice to a module only helpful in one specific circumstance Originally by: Spacehulk ECM specialized ships = poor shields/armour ECCM ships = Whatever you like ECM is far from limited to ECM ships. In fact a big part of the problem is that it can be effectively used on ANY ship. Originally by: Spacehulk ECM cycle = 20 secs .. If you fail you could end losing your ship in less than 20 secs ECCM = Not chance based and barely uses cap The likelyhood of untimely ship loss is much higher for a ship hit by a successful jam than for a ship failing a jam. And ECCM is pretty much just as chance based as ECM. Originally by: Spacehulk ECM ships = No drone bay ECCM ships = May have drones and use FoF for defense 75m¦ = 0? And again, ECM use is far from limited to ECM ships... And lastly, the devastating effect of ECM still makes it more useful than any kind of ECCM. Jamming faster is still a better counter than ECCM since it is also useful against non-jammers. The only real use I see for the new ECCM is to specifically gank scorpions. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Arian Snow	Posted - 2006.06.21 21:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Arian Snow on 21/06/2006 21:25:34 Well this whining ***es me off. 1: Having many skillpoints has never been a valid argument for invincibility in EVE. Get over it the reason why Eve is so good is because a gang of noobs or a noob in the right ship can overcome an experienced character. Just because you decide to use half a year training ECM it should not make you GOD to non ECM characters. Go play WOW or something instead!!! 2:Jamming you enemies sensors is incredibly powerfull its not comparable to Target Painting or Warp Disrupting at all. 3: ECCM still sucks Warp Core Stabs are better because then you can leave that annoying ECM ship behind. Its completely useless for other than a defence mechanism against ECM and fitting it severely gimps your setup! Also its still not surefire against ECM far from it. Go out and fly your ECM ship and stop whinning they are still incredible powerful. I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!*
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2006.06.21 21:40:00 - [23] I think what he was trying to say is that ECM suffers no stacking penalty like other modules such as Target Painters, Tracking Disruptors, Sensor Dampeners, etc. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Cuisinart	Posted - 2006.06.21 21:55:00 - [24] Edited by: Cuisinart on 21/06/2006 21:55:45 Chance based = crap
Kaeten	Posted - 2006.06.21 22:02:00 - [25] I've been so looking forward for ecm the "iwin" button to finally be equaled out. Your jsut mad cause when your in your rook theres no 100% gurantee that You'll be able to jam whoever your shooting at 100% of the time (not 100% buy very high, not to mention having more than 1 jammer on the target). I'm sorry but we'll have to see how ECCM does, I will certainly enjoy testing them out High-Sec Piracy Recruitment
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.06.21 22:47:00 - [26] Originally by: Pord Now with the new ECCM your looking on a rook (the most powerful jamming ship in game) with maxed out skills looking at what 15 on a racial jammer ahainst a sensor strength of a BS with 1 ECM looking at 40. Chance of jamming = (15/40)*100 = 37.5% chance and thats with racial. Consider the amout of trainning time this would take compared to using 1 t1 ECCM. That's unacceptable.... there is no function for ECCM other than to protect against ECM... so it should do so very well. I think your rook should be able to jam BS without ECCM but your 37.5% (with a racial, I guess it's about 20-ish if you use multi's) is WAY TOO MUCH. The fact that jammers don't stack doens't mean diddly, even against BS with ECCM, you can still shut 2 of them down at a time. That's totally ridiculous. What are we supposed to do to protect ourselves? ECCM don't work.... oh yeah, that's right, we jam you back. Changing ECCM from 60% to 80% is a joke. The bonus needs to be 500% for a ship like a blasterthron/pulse geddon to beat the domi's/scorps/ravens that are using ECM/nos/tank setups. Show me a setup that uses ECCM and not ECM and can beat ECM and I'll be happy... until then, we need a way to properly counter ECM.
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.21 22:57:00 - [27] You cannot train for an I-Win button in Eve. People need to stop thinking that way. ECCM is overpowered, _AND_ ECM is overpowered.
Ab Initio	Posted - 2006.06.21 23:00:00 - [28] I had a play around with the new stats last night, and must say that Im actually impressed with the changes. * They have avoided a direct nerf to ECM. * They have given us a defensive model that is actually worth fitting against an enemy you know is ECM heavy. The numbers are fine. The only people seriously affected by this will be the guys that stick a multispec in there spare slot (and even then, the odds are still fairly good that the jam will be successful). ECM spec characters will have more than one ECM module and adapt appropriately.
gfldex	Posted - 2006.06.21 23:36:00 - [29] If I have a spare med slot (Domi, Tempest) I will allways fit a racial caldari jammer because it not only save me from being jammed by you but my whole gang. The jammer ship (Scorp, Blackbird, Caldary Recon) are able to spend a slot and as anybody will try to jam them first the ECCM is in favor of those ships. As I see it the ECCM boost will make it worse then it was befor the content patch and will make dedicated jammer ships even more powerfull. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.06.22 00:03:00 - [30] you say 37.5% chance like its a small number! your one mid slot, had 37.5% chance of shutting down all a battleships high slots, and all a BS offensive mid slots [like warp desrupter and webbers ect] and thats with a BS dedicatng one slot to eccm say a BS has on average 10offensive slots, 8highs and 2 mids. you ONE slot has 37.5% chance of jamming TEN SLOTS. infact you should have closer to the 10% chance a battleship should naturally have about 50-60strength and im sure that the ecm nerf[yes one is comeing, read the ecm sticky] that nerf might well well BS strength naturally to 40 or higher, or ecm mods halfing or les in strength even with eccm, ecm is far far overpowered! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s

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