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Orca & Rorqual - Balancing pass

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Anthar Thebess 548	Posted - 2014.06.30 10:14:00 - [1] - Quote Currently Orca and Rorqual are unbalaced that's why both ships need massive re purpose from the mining perspective. Both still have strong role in running mining links. On the other hand both ships have currently inadequate ore cargo size when you compare it to dedicated T1 haulers , new t2 haulers , or freighters that can pickp stuff from space. So changes i propose: Orca / Rorqual : - increase ore cargo hold to 800k m3 - shift main cargo hold to corporate cargo and increase it by 50% Orca : - add 2 additional highslots and increase link numbers so that this ship can run more links Rorqual : - add ability to mount Capital Strip Miners* *capital strip miners - work only in deploy mode , harvest at rate 1000 m3 / per cycle all surrounding asteroid at range 10km. So the more asteroid in range , the more ore you can harvest. Now what is most important. Make mining links to be only applied to "on grid" ships. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 173	Posted - 2014.06.30 10:33:00 - [2] - Quote Heh, you will find open ears for a balance pass for the Orca from me. I can't say much about the Rorqual though. I do think though, that the Orca doesn't need more high slots nor more added warefare link options, you are talking from the perspective of a solo Orca gang which I think should not be taken extensively into consideration. Often enough a second Orca is present or even a command ship in the system. With off grid boosting still intact I don't see the need for more links on a single industrial ship. Further more due to the MTU we do not need another high slot for tractor beams - those can go. My suggestion would be: Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to ship ore hold capacity 3% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness +70% mining drone yield (or role bonus) Role Bonus: 500% bonus to Survey Scanner range (300% mining drone yield) GÇó Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously To compare, the old: Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to ship cargo capacity 3% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness Role Bonus: 250% bonus to Tractor Beam range 100% bonus to Tractor Beam velocity 500% bonus to Survey Scanner range GÇó Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously The reason for the change would be to force Orcas on grid and make them meaningful and active for the pilots giving them something to do besides reshuffling ore. Often enough I hear that Orca pilots feel they are not feeling that they are actively pulling their weight and could just stay off grid afk. With the level bonus maxed the mining yield would be equivalent with a decent mack T2 fit yield, with the role bonus it would be a little less. Cheers Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 807	Posted - 2014.06.30 10:46:00 - [3] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Rorqual : - add ability to mount Capital Strip Miners* *capital strip miners - work only in deploy mode , harvest at rate 1000 m3 / per cycle all surrounding asteroid at range 10km. So the more asteroid in range , the more ore you can harvest. Whilst I'm all for a Rorqual balance pass I'm not convinced about this part. Whilst it might, on the surface, appear to be a good idea to get Rorquals on grid all you're doing is allowing the larger entities in EVE the ability to strip an entire system of ore in a very short amount of time. So, imagine [insert nullsec coalition here] want to do an ore drive to fund their srp/super program. With your proposed change it looks like you'd take one Rorqual and a mining fleet into a mining site or belt. Well, there's nothing to stop them taking 50 Rorquals and stripping the system of ore in a very short amount of time. Cyno jam the system and keep a pvp fleet on the gates and you have massive devalue of mineral prices due to massively increasing the amount mined. The CFC, for example, could cyno jam one system a day and locust strip it then move to the next system the next day. Allowing the Rorqual to mine insane amounts of ore isn't going to work because of this. Whilst I'd love it, it would be way too open to abuse by the top groups which would further strengthen the need to be the biggest and have the most space. The ripple effect of this would be horrendous and probably remove mining as a viable profession for anyone else. It seems a bit silly to keep buffing the largest entities whilst nerfing the smaller entities in this game. If anything it should be the other way around.
Anthar Thebess 548	Posted - 2014.06.30 10:51:00 - [4] - Quote You are right. But putting those ship on grid is one of the ideas. They are already limited to Low/Null space. We can just add some restriction to the module itself: Quote: Activating in the vicinity ( 100km ) another capital strip miner destabilizes both modules and make all materials from this cycle to be vaporized. So max 1 Ronqual per belt. I'm thinking about putting this on system belts rather than ore anomalies, but this can be done by increasing of asteroid spread on ore sites. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 807	Posted - 2014.06.30 11:05:00 - [5] - Quote Ok, that's a good idea. As long as only one per grid works it should be ok. It still makes it easier for larger entities to use one than smaller but I don't think anything can be done about that short of giving it a POS-like bubble of immunity. +1 for general concept
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 464	Posted - 2014.06.30 12:03:00 - [6] - Quote Keep in mind people use orcas for other things than just mining. You mess my orca up and I will cut you (out of the highsec, by ganking). EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 807	Posted - 2014.06.30 12:05:00 - [7] - Quote Arya Regnar wrote: Keep in mind people use orcas for other things than just mining. You mess my orca up and I will cut you (out of the highsec, by ganking). I quite agree with this. It could do with a larger ore hold though and as this wouldn't impact on all the other uses people have found for the Orca I can't see a problem with increasing it.
Anthar Thebess 549	Posted - 2014.06.30 12:14:00 - [8] - Quote Arya Regnar wrote: Keep in mind people use orcas for other things than just mining. You mess my orca up and I will cut you (out of the highsec, by ganking). I hate higsec , neut camp on each gate Check my suggestion : - add 2 additional highslots and increase link numbers so that this ship can run more links - shift main cargo hold to corporate cargo and increase it by 50% So Fleet hangar : (40000 + 30000) * 1.5 = 105.000 m3 A bit less than currently orca can achieve , still this is in one cargo hold , and you have low slots and rigs that can be shifted to fit other needs. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 173	Posted - 2014.06.30 12:20:00 - [9] - Quote Yes, I agree too, the primary function is served well and won't be hindered, but its secondary function, the actual 'mining thingy' and its (active) support for that falls a bit short. I also agree that with the mining drone bonus some might get a 2-in-1 and thinking about it I would change my suggestion to +50% per level or +225% as a role bonus. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1745	Posted - 2014.06.30 15:10:00 - [10] - Quote Has anyone thought about an orca improving the yield of mining drones for the entire fleet? much like a titan boosts fleet stats by just being there. and after the change to the rettie and mack, the orca could do with a buffed ore bay for comparison. not 800km3 though, was thinking more 75k m3 + 5% per level. Also would appreciate more of its main hold being moved into the fleet hangar. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 2294	Posted - 2014.06.30 15:13:00 - [11] - Quote How about we get rid of the Orca's ore bay entirely and add that space to the rest of the ship, dividing it up neatly between the main cargo hold and the fleet hangar?
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 808	Posted - 2014.06.30 15:17:00 - [12] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: How about we get rid of the Orca's ore bay entirely and add that space to the rest of the ship, dividing it up neatly between the main cargo hold and the fleet hangar? Or not, considering it's primarily meant as a mining ship that's been co-opted into other roles.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1747	Posted - 2014.06.30 15:39:00 - [13] - Quote well if it didnt lead to a nerf in total cargo space then it wouldnt really matter. however, the presence of an ore bay suggests that it is allowed a larger capacity than it would otherwise have. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 173	Posted - 2014.06.30 15:44:00 - [14] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: How about we get rid of the Orca's ore bay entirely and add that space to the rest of the ship, dividing it up neatly between the main cargo hold and the fleet hangar? It would give a slight improvement for its main function as a mining support, but would be high jacked by the mentioned uses. To fill the gap between the current T1 haulers and Freighters I'd rather see a new T2 hauler series that can bridge the gap maybe at average 250.000 300.000 m3 cargo space. I also thought about a mining drone fleet bonus, but its more making the Orca attractive to active players then giving it just another afk boost. I am happy if the T2 Orca would at least get some love like this. Otherwise, some mods to inmcrease mining drone yield that is not as useless as the CPU penalty bound rigs would be welcome too. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Anthar Thebess 549	Posted - 2014.06.30 16:01:00 - [15] - Quote This 800k m3 is for ore only. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Smugest Sniper Shinigami Miners Spaceship Samurai 14	Posted - 2014.06.30 16:35:00 - [16] - Quote Let the Rorqual Refine and Compress in deployed mode. Expand ore bay's. Space Nomad mining fleet Ho!
Phoenix Jones POS Party Try Rerolling 472	Posted - 2014.06.30 16:57:00 - [17] - Quote On the Orca: 1) The ore bay should be higher than it is. 800,000 is alot, especially when considering Compressed Ore (the Orca would turn into the best Ore hauler in Eve Bar None). Not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to consider the new Ore Haulers that exist and the uselessness they would come to. 200 to 300,000 would be a bit more sane. 2) Why not just allow the Orca to compress Ore and Ice? Yes it takes the job away from the Rorqual. I'm fine with that. (see below). On the Rorqual: Note: this is completely made up fictional crap, but lets make the Rorqual Something insane. 1) It should just be able to convert itself into a mobile starbase that can be anchored anywhere (near belts, away from belts, near planets, away from planets, basically anywhere). Throw out the anchoring, the compression, etc. It transforms and turns into a POS, equipped with shields, based on the amount of stront in the ship. So basically it turns into a deployable MANNED POS with benefits (Yes the Rorqual Pilot MUST be present while the ship is in normal ship mode OR deployed mode). The person goes offline/crashes, shields go down in 10 minutes, ship stays in space another 5 before logging out. Ample time to blap it. a) It has its own built in Cyno Inhibitor, Cyno Jammer (Jams Both Normal Cyno), increased sensor strength (to resist 1 shot easy probing). And also has its own Mobile Scan Inhibitor. All built in. So with the Rorqual in Deployed mode, all these effects activate. Note that the Inhibitor on the Rorqual has a much MUCH higher Sensor Strength. b) It has the Limited ability to bridge ships and now jump Covert Cyno's (can jump a normal cyno, or a covert cyno). c) The ships it can bridge, 1) Orca, 2) Barges (t1 and t2), Mining Frigates (Prospect and Venture), Miasmos. d) It takes 2 minutes to go into deployed mode, and another 3 minutes for its shields to go up (basically it has a vulnerable area). e) POS modules CANNOT be equipped/anchored inside the rorqual shields. f) the rorqual's shields is physically VERY small (smaller than a small pos small). The main question would be, why all the effects. A ship like this would basically be oneshot by anybody with a cyno capital on standby, so it needs a little defense. This removes the issue of a cloaky hot dropping an entire black ops fleet 3 inches from the ship (can easily drop in other area's of the system and warp to, just removes that issue). This gives a route for mining ships to mine other area's of null and to have a support vessel prepared for ferrying ores back to more central places. In otherwords, it removes the POS issue from Lowsec/Nullsec and leaves the pos more for wormhole space. This is a ridiculous example for a Rorqual though. Stabbers are totally broken http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
Doris VanGit The Rusty Muskets 0	Posted - 2014.06.30 17:50:00 - [18] - Quote Think i like the idea of the Refining & Compressing. With the new pos mods coming into play, changes are needed. But i would keep it simple, both have the same roles and bonuses But rather than give them shileds like a pos etc, use them as a deployable asset. Would suit the smaller corps. So, 1. Remove the deployable mode (industrial core) just allow them to do there job regardless 2. Give them compressing and refining bonuses 3. Increase ore/Fleet bay (for lots of crystals etc), but make this a minerals as well. But large enough to be deployed for several hours or days depending on the size of the corp. 4. Both cable of clone bays 5. Can only carry industrial ships 1 Mil m3 or more 6. Maybe give them an imunity to scrams and disruptors, therefore peeps must field a dictor. Or rorqual imunity, and orca +2 warp strenght I though of one only but forgot!! For example: Joe in his orca sets of to find a nice high sec system, without a station to do some mining with his small corp buddies. They all jump to his ship jump in the miners and mine all day. Deploy a pos if needed However, Fred in his Rorqual, has a cyno alt which sets off to find a nice quiet low sec system. He jumps into the system, were his buddies jump to the rorqual They deploy a small pos for the rorqual to sit in. And off to work they go.
J A Aloysiusz Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited 35	Posted - 2014.06.30 19:09:00 - [19] - Quote I support this! Give rorqual super OP mining rate so carebears have an incentive to save up and buy a rorqual, move to low sec, and mine belts with the rorqual. <333333
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6202	Posted - 2014.06.30 19:35:00 - [20] - Quote Doris VanGit wrote: But i would keep it simple, both have the same roles and bonuses But rather than give them shileds like a pos etc, use them as a deployable asset. Would suit the smaller corps. Some sort of pos-like thing that's a deployable and therefore doesn't need pos roles to set up and use would be pretty handy... ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
M Key Hedion University Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2014.06.30 21:24:00 - [21] - Quote Perhaps instead of directly mining with the Orca, give it the old rattlesnake 400m^3 drone bay and drone damage bonus. Also ability to fit MJD and bastion module. Balance the tank around surviving null belts solo with a proper active shield OR armor tank. Keep roughly the same buffer as now. It should require active tending to tank null belt rats, so passive shield regen should be nearly nothing. It would hardly be game breaking doing T1 battleship DPS at best, with an active tank. No one is going to highsec security mission in them for example. However it WOULD buff mining fleets by combining protection against rats with the fleet booster. If it needs more to support the fleet, perhaps some logistics bonus. Easy for this to get stupid though.
Saisin State War Academy Caldari State 80	Posted - 2014.07.01 03:14:00 - [22] - Quote What about a t2 orca , instead of changing the T1 orca? One thing that would be neat is to have it able to deploy into a POS like structure mode, and have larger hangar bays in general, like the OP suggests, plus possibly one non mining link option. Its ship maintenance bay would accept one or two black ops battleships, plus some smaller ships. It would not have any covert cloak capability, but could still be bridged by black ops ships. It would be a deep exploration ship that can deploy for days in hostile territories. Once deployed as a POS around a moon, it would not show on D-Scan, but could be probed with combat probes, or simply found out by warping to said moon.... That would really create a potential for nomadic, deep exploration and exploitation bases, as well as offer a ship with a similar focus as the current Orca but with a twist toward stealth deployment in hostile territories. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html
Elusive Panda Gendry's Leech Nerfed Alliance Go Away 43	Posted - 2014.07.01 06:08:00 - [23] - Quote Not against improving the mining aspect of the Orca, but don't destroy it's "high-sec carrier" aspect. PLEASE.
Anthar Thebess 549	Posted - 2014.07.01 07:24:00 - [24] - Quote Elusive Panda wrote: Not against improving the mining aspect of the Orca, but don't destroy it's "high-sec carrier" aspect. PLEASE. No one is talking about changing this. Why give orca 800k ore bay? Because currently Freighters are capable moving as many goods easily , any type of goods, and this will be ORE only bay. Primary role of an orca is supporting mining operation , so having orca capable hauling as many ore as freighter is logical item. Will it obsolete new industrials? No. Those T1 haulers cost 2mil each , have minimal skill requirements. Orca cost 500mil + and have to be trained to be used. 800km3 ore hold will put more pressure to have this ship on the grid. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Doris VanGit The Rusty Muskets 1	Posted - 2014.07.16 01:07:00 - [25] - Quote A little more thought on the orca, maybe How about give it the compression bonus, and remove the skill books for doing this. No industrial core neither. Increase the Storage bays, especially for tdoing the compression etc Increase the Ship Bay for all types Give it some more slots, especially highs. Give it the ability to use a couple of strip miners, and a small bonus to these. Why you ask? For the peeps that do small scale mining, like myself. I duel box and pay for my accounts and having an orca in the belt with one ship mining just seems a bit slow. May as well have a hulk and a mack instead. This will, I think. Give the hulk and the orca more use in small mining ops Do something for the smaller gangs for a change Only a thought
Mole Guy Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion 436	Posted - 2014.07.16 10:10:00 - [26] - Quote then we can give the orca hydraulics and send it to low rider competitions. maybe some 18"s and spinners... maybe twin turbo the rorqual and send it to the drag strip so it can run down interceptors. they were designed back in the day before we could move large amounts of ore like with todays barges and boost. the orca only holding 50k ore Is pretty small. it could be increased a LOT as suggested. 800k is too much IMO. the 250k the rorqual has could be ok on the orca since it is severely limited to ore only. then we could buff the rorqual. boosting mining drones would be good. as we stated in several other posts, a pilot should not lose their ability to mine when stepping up. a command ship doesnt lose its ability to kill. a carrier doesnt lose its ability to damage. it should not be more than a hulk. but to mine the = of a mack or skiff isnt too much to ask. even if we have to do it with drones. not allowing 2 rorquals in the same belt? i dunno..they can protect each other. if they are finally made to hit the belts, they need defense. i dont like the vacuum cleaner idea tho. they should get a strait up bonus to mining like an exhumer. give them the same bonus a skiff gets. 1 strip miner, great range because of the rorquals power level. also, since it can generate more power, give it more range balanced by the same % cap draw. like 50% bonus to range=50% more cap pull on the rorqual or orca. if the rorqual has to deploy to work, it needs range on the laser. it cant just undeploy at will and more closer to the roids. give the rorqual 500k ORE hold. not a good idea to switch the cargo to fleet hangar. cant deploy poses from fleet hangar. i use the rorqual as a jump freighter most of the time since its so broke, and we use it to setup poses. 40k fleet is plenty. but allow it to pull heavy water from fleet hangar too for boosting. if i am boosting from the pos and one of my guys wants to put water in the rorqual, he can only put it in the fleet bay. doesnt work from there.
Doris VanGit The Rusty Muskets 1	Posted - 2014.07.21 15:10:00 - [27] - Quote Just to give this a daily Bump, as these 2 ships should be looked at sooner rather than later. You never know a Dev might spot this. I agree with you Mole Guy, similar mining ability to a Skiff or mack. And mining drones. With a greater ability to be deployed longer in systems without stations. With what has been said before if reference to ore storage. All whilst giving the relevant bonuses. And too be fair, why not give it more slots, it is after all a capital ship of sort.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 156	Posted - 2014.07.21 15:36:00 - [28] - Quote Something to keep in mind regarding the Orca (and ore hauling in general) is that ore compression is coming to hisec. Any mining corp having the wherewithal to anchor a small Compression POS (which they should given the opening up of 0.8+ systems and the removal of standings requirements) will see their ore hauling capabilities vastly improved. That 50k Ore Hold on your Orca will, depending on what you're hauling, become a ~500k Ore Hold once you anchor a small Compression POS. The Orca is fine as-is. I could see it maybe getting some sort of bonuses to drones, or granting boosts to in-fleet, on-grid drones like a Titan does with ships, but neither of those are really necessary. It's a great multi-purpose vessel with bonuses for mining boosts, and it fills it's role rather well. The Rorqual needs some serious attention, especially since the new Compression Array will supplant the Rorq's only unique role. It doesn't just need a buff, it needs a purpose. Even CCP has acknowledged this. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Marox Calendale Human League 24	Posted - 2014.07.21 16:02:00 - [29] - Quote Doris VanGit wrote: Just to give this a daily Bump, as these 2 ships should be looked at sooner rather than later. You never know a Dev might spot this. I agree with you Mole Guy, similar mining ability to a Skiff or mack. And mining drones. With a greater ability to be deployed longer in systems without stations. With what has been said before if reference to ore storage. All whilst giving the relevant bonuses. And too be fair, why not give it more slots, it is after all a capital ship of sort. The Orca is fine as it is as ore compression is comming to highsec. For the Rorqual ideas go the right thread
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 233	Posted - 2014.07.21 16:18:00 - [30] - Quote Doris VanGit wrote: A little more thought on the orca, maybe How about give it the compression bonus, and remove the skill books for doing this. No industrial core neither. Increase the Storage bays, especially for the doing the compression etc Increase the Ship Bay for all types Give it some more slots, especially highs. Give it the ability to use a couple of strip miners, and a small bonus to these. Why you ask? For the peeps that do small scale mining, like myself. I duel box and pay for my accounts and having an orca in the belt with one ship mining just seems a bit slow. May as well have a hulk and a mack instead. After all, the other command ships give bonuses and fight. So why cant the orca mine and give bonuses? This will, I think. Give the hulk and the orca more use in small mining ops Do something for the smaller gangs for a change Only a thought I agree with most perceptions, that the Orca is 'almost' fine. Giving it extra highs and strip miner ability makes the ship, as I stated, the 2-in-1 ship and would tip balance. Why fly a Mack or Hulk if you can have an Orca which is like an exhumer plus the boost. The tipping point should still be with 4 or 5 ships, bring an extra barge isntead of the Orca, or 3 with max skills, T2 fit. No perfect 2 man fleet boost nonsense. The same goes for 'just' some extra high slots, with command processors you will be able to get more then 3 links on it (unless you include a max 3 limitations or cut mid slots) and devaluate some of the CS. I stand with my suggestion to slightly increase the ore hold (or swap the bonus) and increase drone yield do give it a more active role, a different one and keep it for balance reasons below the average exhumer. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!

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