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Brannor McThife
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Posted - 2006.06.27 08:53:00 -
[1]
I've flown through these two systems quite a bit in the last few days, and I have to say, that I am shocked at the language being thrown at noobs.
A noob may think getting his first cruiser is a great achievement and share it with everyone on Local, and that's great, but my word, the amount of verbal abuse and slander that gets thrown at people in these two systems is shocking.
I'm amazed any of the noobs in those systems stay in the game.
I challenge an ISD person, or GM, to go sit in these two systems, and just monitor the language there. Then hand out 3-day bans to half the populace of these systems as you sit there amazed at the abuse.
For those of you perpetrators that read this, you should be ashamed of yourselves. I won't stoop to your level of slander, even here on the forums, and you deserve any bans you get.
-G
Dulce bellum inexpertis... |
AaronP
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Posted - 2006.06.27 08:55:00 -
[2]
Stop crying. 
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Caleb Paine
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Posted - 2006.06.27 08:56:00 -
[3]
I'll just copy and paste my reaction on the 'carebear' thread.
 Quote:
It's an easy word to shout for people who lack the brains to come up with something of their own and also lack self esteem, needing the ego boost by calling someone else names and then point and laugh...
Noob, carebear, loser, LOLZ and all those type of words are generally used by people with high insecurity, seeking anonymity and safety in a group, frantically pointing fingers at others and hoping they won't be the next 'victim' of attention.
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Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
My sig edit button is cloaked, it can't be touched! |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.06.27 08:57:00 -
[4]
You read local in HiSec? 
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Apocryphai
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:01:00 -
[5]
I'm assuming you're the same Brannor McThife who used to fill the european DaoC forums (first the official ones, then the BarrysWorld/FreddysHouse ones) with pointless whining?
Do you really think that policing the language people use in-game is a sensible and effective use of GM time? Wouldn't you rather that this limited resource is used to answer genuine and important petitions?
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:06:00 -
[6]
harassment petition (offenseive language) GMs will ban (gag) 24 hours first time 2nd time its a week if within a certain period. Thats all u gotta do
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:06:00 -
[7]
I'd say verbal abuse against new players is a pretty serious offence myself...
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 27/06/2006 09:08:56
OMG CCP nerf language plz, I keep getting pwned in highsec by people calling me names, highsec should be safe from these griefers etc etc etc.
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Throwing ships away doing stupid things since April '06 |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:11:00 -
[9]
If you really care, use harassment petitions. Liberally. It works.
I would agree, though.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Brannor McThife
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Apocryphai
I'm assuming you're the same Brannor McThife who used to fill the european DaoC forums (first the official ones, then the BarrysWorld/FreddysHouse ones) with pointless whining?
And you're probably one of the snivelling gits that cried foul that someone else actually had access to speak directly with GOA personnel. 
Labelling what I say as pointless whining, like you probably did back in DAoC days, shows that like the EULA from that game, you have no regard for the EULA of this game.
My interest here, is in having new player feel welcome, and not having [generalisation]spoilt teenage brats[/generalisation] impose their own insecurities on others. In the end, the game is improved by having new blood introduced.
-G
Dulce bellum inexpertis... |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:34:00 -
[11]
It's the Proximity of one of the busiest systems in-game, to one of the most popular starting stations.
I started at Todaki's School for Gifted Children, many a jump from the bright-lights of Jita. Kisogo on the other hand is but a mis-guided click away, especially as plenty of stuff is cheap there.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:37:00 -
[12]
The GM care and they react pretty fast on those harrassment petitions.
And they seem to have no problem gagging and/or banning people for using foul language in public channels or evemail.
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Apocryphai
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
And you're probably one of the snivelling gits that cried foul that someone else actually had access to speak directly with GOA personnel.
Labelling what I say as pointless whining, like you probably did back in DAoC days, shows that like the EULA from that game, you have no regard for the EULA of this game.
My interest here, is in having new player feel welcome, and not having [generalisation]spoilt teenage brats[/generalisation] impose their own insecurities on others. In the end, the game is improved by having new blood introduced.
-G
I have no idea what you're talking about regarding GOA, my comment regarding your past posting history on the DaoC boards was based upon my perception of the content of your posts. As I said, the vast majority of them were pointless and inflammatory and ignored real issues in favour of focussing solely on unimportant issues which you were adept and blowing up needlessly.
I'll repeat my point - do you think that language rule enforcement would be an effective and economically sensible use of GM time? Look at the early days of WoW when the GM's attempted to police all the swearing and abuse that people used in general chat channels. It quickly became a mechanism of abuse and people reported others for "inappropriate language" maliciously and the load on GMs became unfeasible.
It was only sustainable in WoW because of the huge number of subscriptions and thus the massive budget available for hiring support staff. EVE has about 2% of the subscription numbers that WoW has and thus a considerably smaller support staff budget than WoW. Support staff are a *major* cost in MMORPG running and thus support time is an extremely limited resource usually. Wasting that resource on protecting new players from language they will all be more than familiar with from the playgrounds, TV and the internet seems like a seriously bad idead to me.
Especially when the "right click, block" option is so easy.
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.06.27 09:50:00 -
[14]
Jita?
Thats the hellhole in Empire where everyone gets together to stroke each others e-peen isnt it?
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Sig to come soonish.
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Khajit Smitty
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Posted - 2006.06.27 11:28:00 -
[15]
For me its simple....
(bad language in local) + (asking to stop) + (more bad language) + (asking to stop again) = Harrasment petition.
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Flaming sambuka
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Posted - 2006.06.27 11:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Khajit Smitty
For me its simple....
(bad language in local) + (asking to stop) + (more bad language) + (asking to stop again) = Harrasment petition.
I probably couldnt have said it better myself.
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Eskona Runningstar
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Posted - 2006.06.27 11:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Apocryphai
(...)
As I said, the vast majority of them were pointless and inflammatory and ignored real issues in favour of focussing solely on unimportant issues which you were adept and blowing up needlessly.
Thats your opinion. Obviously his opinion was a different one, and the good thing about opinions is that everybody can have one. I also think that its not a very good impression of a game to state youre happy because you just bought your first cruiser just to be put down by others in a rude language with "noob" comments and such.
Originally by: Apocryphai
I'll repeat my point - do you think that language rule enforcement would be an effective and economically sensible use of GM time? Look at the early days of WoW when the GM's attempted to police all the swearing and abuse that people used in general chat channels. It quickly became a mechanism of abuse and people reported others for "inappropriate language" maliciously and the load on GMs became unfeasible.
I actually have to agree here - the time could be used better for other things. That doesnt make it less valid, though.
Originally by: "Apocyphai"
It was only sustainable in WoW because of the huge number of subscriptions and thus the massive budget available for hiring support staff. EVE has about 2% of the subscription numbers that WoW has and thus a considerably smaller support staff budget than WoW. Support staff are a *major* cost in MMORPG running and thus support time is an extremely limited resource usually. Wasting that resource on protecting new players from language they will all be more than familiar with from the playgrounds, TV and the internet seems like a seriously bad idead to me.
Youre example is flawed. The ratio of GM positions divided by amount of players stays the same, so the same fraction of the monthly subscription fee per player is used for GM salaries. Its not wasting resources in my opinion, either - why would you want new players to get a bad impression of your game?
Originally by: "Apocyphai"
Especially when the "right click, block" option is so easy.
I love this statement every time it comes up. So after all, you forgetting to lock the front door of your house makes me stealing stuff out of your house legal?
The block option is nice and I use it - however, it is in no way a "have your way" card. Just because others can ignore you doesnt mean you dont need to stick to the rules.
Having said that, filing a harassment petition against somebody who insults others for no aparent reason works quite well.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.06.27 11:44:00 -
[18]
Reading Jita local chat sometimes makes me smile. Sometimes makes me frown. But more often than not I want to fit out a apocabomber. But then I realise that the 12 year old permanubs that spam it all day long are docked, because they've got nothing to do in the game, as they can't actually manage any level of teamwork. So I'd not be getting them with smartbombs.
Incidentally, has anyone tried bombing 4/4 in Jita? What was the sechit like?
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pshepherd
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Posted - 2006.06.27 12:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Stamm
Incidentally, has anyone tried bombing 4/4 in Jita? What was the sechit like?
You can't smartbomb within 5km of a station, pity 
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Apocryphai
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Posted - 2006.06.27 13:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Eskona Runningstar
Thats your opinion. Obviously his opinion was a different one, and the good thing about opinions is that everybody can have one. I also think that its not a very good impression of a game to state youre happy because you just bought your first cruiser just to be put down by others in a rude language with "noob" comments and such.
Yup, it's my opinion. I apologise for raising the whole issue about Brannor's past postings tbh, it contributed nothing useful to the discussion.
As for my opinions of Jita (etc) chat? Well, EVE is a harsh game. It's mechanics encourage a lot of game styles that would be classed as griefing in other MMORPGs. It has a preponderance of non-consensual pvp, very little protection for players from scammers, thieves, pirates and griefers. If anyone is going to survive in EVE they need to grow a thick skin fast. Why should the chat channels not reflect the harsh reality of life in this game?
Originally by: Eskona Runningstar
I actually have to agree here - the time could be used better for other things. That doesnt make it less valid, though.
I think it's crucial - Brannor specifically called for GMs/ISD/etc to spend time policing the language in hub systems. One of my personal main objections to his suggestion is based upon my opinion that this would be a misuse of such time.
Originally by: Eskona Runningstar
Youre example is flawed. The ratio of GM positions divided by amount of players stays the same, so the same fraction of the monthly subscription fee per player is used for GM salaries. Its not wasting resources in my opinion, either - why would you want new players to get a bad impression of your game?
My point wasn't about the ratio of support:customers but about the disproportionate amount of support time that was being used to police language rules. In WoW this also applied initially to attempts to ban languages non-native to the server (ie. speaking Italian in an English-speaking server public channels). It quickly became impossible to enforce and so it was dropped. The enforcing of profanity rules was relaxed massively.
Regarding the profitability and support ratio, it's actually possible for a game the size of WoW's to provied MUCH greater support per customer than it is for a smaller game like EVE, the main factor in that being the economies of large-scale training of support staff.
Originally by: Eskona Runningstar
I love this statement every time it comes up. So after all, you forgetting to lock the front door of your house makes me stealing stuff out of your house legal?
The block option is nice and I use it - however, it is in no way a "have your way" card. Just because others can ignore you doesnt mean you dont need to stick to the rules.
Having said that, filing a harassment petition against somebody who insults others for no aparent reason works quite well.
Heh, real-world comparisons don't work I'm afraid. Leaving your front door unlocked doesn't justify theft, no, but your insurance company won't pay up if you haven't taken adequate steps to protect your property.
Enforcing rules in MMORPGs, especially social/behavioural rules is always a GM/support nightmare. Decisions have to be made about what is and isn't going to be enforced and usually those decisions have to be made on the basis of effective allocation of a limited resource.
Encouraging people to simply use the available tools to stop themselves having to take abuse from people is a lot more efficient than having to have petitions about every swear word in Jita.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.06.27 13:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: pshepherd
Originally by: Stamm
Incidentally, has anyone tried bombing 4/4 in Jita? What was the sechit like?
You can't smartbomb within 5km of a station, pity
They do have a 5KM radius... so you could catch from the station to 10KM out from the station.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.27 13:51:00 -
[22]
Harsh game world, doesn't equal harrasment and abuse, it just means a harsh game. And that does NOT include verbal abuse beyond roleplay related abuse, and even that has to be done with some sense of what's proper and what's not.
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Apocryphai
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Posted - 2006.06.27 13:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gariuys
Harsh game world, doesn't equal harrasment and abuse, it just means a harsh game. And that does NOT include verbal abuse beyond roleplay related abuse, and even that has to be done with some sense of what's proper and what's not.
In-game, pod pilots are the elite of the elite. They routinely pilot ships with crews of 1000's of people who all die permanantly when the ship is destroyed - a daily occurance for some people.
The pod pilots are effectively immortal thanks to cloning technology and have access to weapons and ships that are the stuff almost of legend for the enormous mass of the population of the galaxy.
If you want to stick to roleplay paradigms surely it would be surprising if some of these elite pod pilots WEREN'T arrogant bastards with nothing better to do than mouth off at the new pretenders to their elite crowns... 
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Minsc
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Posted - 2006.06.27 14:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Apocryphai
Originally by: Gariuys
Harsh game world, doesn't equal harrasment and abuse, it just means a harsh game. And that does NOT include verbal abuse beyond roleplay related abuse, and even that has to be done with some sense of what's proper and what's not.
In-game, pod pilots are the elite of the elite. They routinely pilot ships with crews of 1000's of people who all die permanantly when the ship is destroyed - a daily occurance for some people.
The pod pilots are effectively immortal thanks to cloning technology and have access to weapons and ships that are the stuff almost of legend for the enormous mass of the population of the galaxy.
If you want to stick to roleplay paradigms surely it would be surprising if some of these elite pod pilots WEREN'T arrogant bastards with nothing better to do than mouth off at the new pretenders to their elite crowns...
Being arrogant bastards in no way entitles them to spout verbal abuse in Local. What could possibly ever give you the impression that it does.
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Kurren
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Posted - 2006.06.27 14:33:00 -
[25]
Hello!! It's Jita and Oursulaert(?)... For the first few months of their Eve existance... where do you think WoWers hang out for rehabilitation? Noob, Nub, Carebear, etc. are all common practice words in a game so easy a baby could have a lvl 60 before even leaving the womb.
The smack talk stops once they get killed (usually), and see that in this game people can/will exact revenge and it will hurt you when they do.
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SobaKai.com
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H00KER
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Posted - 2006.06.27 14:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Minsc Being arrogant bastards in no way entitles them to spout verbal abuse in Local. What could possibly ever give you the impression that it does.[:roll:
Arrogance?
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2006.06.27 14:57:00 -
[27]
there are always idiots out who "lol" at newer ppl or whatnot,
if theyre offenisve petition,
otherwise just ignore those numbnuts.
-
Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Darkenral
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Posted - 2006.06.27 14:59:00 -
[28]
1 Year ago when I started EVE I found the community mature and helpfull, that has nothing to do with getting killed in low sec or whatever (I had my share of that) ... even the Pirates in low sec would sometimes have a tip for a new player after they poped em.
Sign of how far the EVE community has fallen that apparently verbal abuse and foul language is now being supported on the forums =/ As if the inability to express oneself in anything other than expletives is somehow a sign of greatness.
More likely it just gives new players the impression that this is the same type of community found in every other MMORPG. So much for EVE having a "better" crowd.
Good Post OP although I doubt anything will come of it.
Dark
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Corbis Thalamar
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Posted - 2006.06.27 15:13:00 -
[29]
I have to say that I'm really quite tired of hearing about other pirates and PVP players smack-talking and putting down either people who are just getting into the game or people that they've just beaten in combat. It's a rediculous practice, and ultimately, will hurt yourself.
Since I've become a 'Flasher' (someone with a negative security status below -4.9 for the newly signed up EvE players) I've noticed that people distrust me and think that I'll screw them over at every turn. I find this disturbing. Later, after the battle, whether I've won or lost I'll convo my opponent and they often comment on how great it was to be able to talk to someone that wasn't full of smack and the like.
Guys, it's all well and fine that we're part of a 'l33t' crowd. But by putting new players down and your opponents you are killing your own game. Eventually people get sick of an immature community and quit or get discouraged in their formative months and stop playing. This means less people for you to fight, ransom and ultimately blow-up!
Call me old fashioned, but whether I lose a Tristan or an Megathron I think it's my duty to take a loss gracefully and even more important to take a win with sportsmanship. Talk to your opponent after, discuss the fight and what happened. You'll learn things for even the newest player because they haven't formed those bad habits of prejudgement yet...
Simply put, there just isn't any excuse for bad sportsmanship. In my wing, I open fire on my own wing-mates if I find them smack-talking people. Just because your a pirate doesn't mean that your exempt from real life manners.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.27 15:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Corbis Thalamar
I have to say that I'm really quite tired of hearing about other pirates and PVP players smack-talking and putting down either people who are just getting into the game or people that they've just beaten in combat. It's a rediculous practice, and ultimately, will hurt yourself.
Since I've become a 'Flasher' (someone with a negative security status below -4.9 for the newly signed up EvE players) I've noticed that people distrust me and think that I'll screw them over at every turn. I find this disturbing. Later, after the battle, whether I've won or lost I'll convo my opponent and they often comment on how great it was to be able to talk to someone that wasn't full of smack and the like.
Guys, it's all well and fine that we're part of a 'l33t' crowd. But by putting new players down and your opponents you are killing your own game. Eventually people get sick of an immature community and quit or get discouraged in their formative months and stop playing. This means less people for you to fight, ransom and ultimately blow-up!
Call me old fashioned, but whether I lose a Tristan or an Megathron I think it's my duty to take a loss gracefully and even more important to take a win with sportsmanship. Talk to your opponent after, discuss the fight and what happened. You'll learn things for even the newest player because they haven't formed those bad habits of prejudgement yet...
Simply put, there just isn't any excuse for bad sportsmanship. In my wing, I open fire on my own wing-mates if I find them smack-talking people. Just because your a pirate doesn't mean that your exempt from real life manners.
Definently agree to this. I can honestly say i usually just smile at the smacktalk people throw around though. Im not sensitive in that way...people type all sorts of crap on their little keyboards and there is no reason to be offended by it. It always says more about the guy smacktalking.
People should realize that just because you play a pirate, you dont have to act like a 13 year old kid (even if you are one). Try to show some respect for people even if it doesnt come natural to you.
My negative sec rating causes people not to trust me either, which is pretty stupid. Low sec rating doesnt mean that you betray, scam or lie to people. It just means you pirate them in low sec. Thats it.
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