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Zmey
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Posted - 2006.06.29 10:15:00 -
[1]
Just free open space..
EVE - New Age..
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.06.29 10:17:00 -
[2]
No more gate camping? No more Raventards tanking the guns and waiting to pop Ibises and shuttles as they try to make a living? No more blobs waiting at your arrival point?
Count me in!
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Zmey
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Posted - 2006.06.29 11:36:00 -
[3]
Gate = PvP Shackles
I am in EVE since early Beta.
And now time to start thinking about something great for EVE.
I'm ready to write all my ides and game mechanics for this.
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K Shara
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Posted - 2006.06.29 12:16:00 -
[4]
OK, lets look at an Eve with no gates.
how would navigation and travel work ?
Would everyone use jump drives that didnt need a source cyno field ?
you appear randomly in the system. point of conflict would be planets moons stations belts.
nice idea, but people would have to easier to find to the point of VERY VERY easy or PvP vanishes.
or maybe the system become like teh original where you leave by a gate but arrive randomly in the system.
intersting idea. people would lock down a system to stop people leaving rather than entering, which would make defending difficult.
<><><><><><><><><>
Contraband
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.29 12:36:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Benefactor
No more gate camping? No more Raventards tanking the guns and waiting to pop Ibises and shuttles as they try to make a living? No more blobs waiting at your arrival point?
Count me in!
No more ability to defend anything, BoB turning up and killing your POS withou warning, the supremacy of blobs which can appear anywhere at any time, no way to catch anyone...
New age, yea, because you'd need to be smoking something to stand playing it.
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Zmey
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Posted - 2006.06.29 13:36:00 -
[6]
OK, lets look at an Eve with no gates.
how would navigation and travel work ?
You cant simply fly to far, distant constelation on frigate or cruiser (or it will be very long travel)
Would everyone use jump drives that didnt need a source cyno field ?
You need Carriers to bring your fleet to distant location.
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Zmey
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Posted - 2006.06.29 13:48:00 -
[7]
No more ability to defend anything, BoB turning up and killing your POS withou warning, the supremacy of blobs which can appear anywhere at any time, no way to catch anyone...
- Why You think You cant difend? Same warning system.
- Cant catch? We will make special abilty to scaning nearest space and warping to that location +/- and start fight(for expample)
- Lots of new cool game aspects can be discovered..
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Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.06.29 13:59:00 -
[8]
how about just making it harder to camp gates by setting something up around them that doesnt allow you to target something near a gate unless you yourself are with in 20km of the gate. eliminate gate sniping and the blob is now suddenly at risk.
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Zmey
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Posted - 2006.06.29 14:02:00 -
[9]
Questions is not in camping, but in open space.
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Cythrawl
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Posted - 2006.06.29 14:07:00 -
[10]
They make stealth ships for a reason... look into it maybe?
Flying is just learning how to fall without crashing. |
Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.06.29 14:44:00 -
[11]
I'm not a big fan. I think gates are central to the prime fiction, and we shouldn't get rid of them.
However, entrance gates make no sense, and as people have mentioned the facilitate "turtling", which makes it hard to push borders without overwhelming force.
Another side effect of this is that it's almost impossible to respond to a system invasion, because once the enemy fleet's in the system, they camp all the gates and lock you out.
I think you should jump to a random spot in the system, so if you want to defend your space you've got to do it from the adjecent system, keeping people away from the gate to your territory.
Obviously, instas circumvent this, but CCP's made it clear that they'd prefer to get rid of instas and I'm all for that. Let us warp to the gate at 5km and get rid of bookmarks within 150km of stations and gates.
The ability to scan and find enemy gate camps before you go to the gate will make pirate gatecamping considerably more difficult without bubbles, so they can't massacre travelers now that instas are gone.
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Fly Catcher
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Posted - 2006.06.29 15:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Fly Catcher on 29/06/2006 15:23:39
Edited by: Fly Catcher on 29/06/2006 15:20:28
I wouldn't replace gates with cyno free jump drives - that would kill the tactical and strategic parts of the game and turn piracy into very boring station camping (big change there then).
Instead I would put forward that non-jump drive ships have an increased warp speed, the field caused by this very high warp speed is too dangerous near cosmic objects so is only used between systems.
You are in Amarr, punch Jita into the nav computer and off it goes - say half an hour, whatever, ship dependant I would assume.
Two things stop this being risk free travel:
1.special scan ships or scan pos modules which can pickup the super-warp signatures from ships passing close by the system you are in
2. Interceptors with stupidly high warp speed which can, errm, intercept you  Knocking you out of warp and hopefully holding you long enough for bigger ships to get to your location
It would provide a role for destroyers and t2 destroyers - kill those ceptors fast! You maybe have a couple of mins max before their friends turn up and you want to be gone by then.
Cruisers could be used as fast response ships - not as fast as ceptors but they can get there to provide reinforcements and stop you getting away.
Perhaps battleships would be undesirable in such combat - lets face it being big and tough is no good if they're gone before you get there. And with slower warp speeds than faster ships the people travelling may not want them either, unless they had good cause to use them at their destination.
Maybe BC could finally get a real combat purpose - they're bigger and heavier than a cruiser but shift in warp at about the same speed - much faster than a BS.
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.06.29 15:40:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Drizit on 29/06/2006 15:44:04
Gates have always been a source of discussion.
Pro's
1. Gates allow systems to be defended.
2. They provide a means to follow others either chasing or just tailing.
3. They provide a time reference for travel thereby limiting station to station trade to tolerable levels.
Cons
1. Easy to camp for pirates and griefers.
2. Create choke points.
3. Limit all travel in 0.0 and Lowsec.
These are just some of the points being made by many players. The latter 3 are the main reasons for so many people still remaining in Highsec.
Removal of the gates affects us all, some positive and some negative but overall, the amount of players in highsec will reduce simply because there is less chance of being ganked before you have even got into 0.0
Combat will remain as it is in 0.0 and the blob will still rule, no gates means that the attacking force cannot camp gates and prevent reinforcements being called in from neighbouring systems. Therefore the defenders would have a much higher chance of defending their systems instead of attackers having the better chance of routing the defenders.
Carriers would have to be used for fleet movement since jump in points would be random. Creating a big force in one place is less possible but not impossible. Carriers can still jump the same distances as they do now to cyno fields placed in close proximity to each other. Friendly or even enemy ships from a neighbouring system could gang jump and land in close range of each other.
Scanning provides locations of ships and would be more widely used to locate enemy ships and other potential threats. Pirates would use the scanner more to locate their prey. Griefers would find other things to do since any work required to grief others would make it less appealing to them.
To retain the time reference for travel, the jump in point would still require warps to get to the station and jump out points could occur anywhere but not within 20km of a station. Therefore warping to a planet or moon is easier than travelling the 20km. Jump requires 10 seconds warm up and cannot be initiated within 20 seconds if you have aggressed. Therefore jumping out of a battle to avoid loss is not possible since it requires 20 seconds after agression and a further 10 seconds warm up. Also the exit point (field dissipates over time) can be scanned quickly to determine where the person went so they can still be followed. Using the same jump out point (right click - use, or key bind) will land the follower within 5km of the previous entry point.
This form of freedom would cause more of an exodus of players from highsec than any other change in the mechanics of the game.
Using beacons or any means of reference to jump from or jump to and we may as well keep the gates.
This solves the insta problem as well.
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Spoon Thumb
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Posted - 2006.06.29 15:51:00 -
[14]
Just have both Gates and Open Travel
According to back story, only certain stars are suitable for gates to work anyway (something about gravity wells between binary stars or soemthing?).
Any case, there will be loads of systems you just can't build working gates in, for which hyperspace or whatever needs to be used.
(P.s. i didn't read the rest of the thread, so sorry if someone already suggested this)
***
Spoon Thumb - I can scoop ice cream with my thumbs!
orange
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Spoon Thumb
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Posted - 2006.06.29 15:59:00 -
[15]
Clearly, any sort of non-gate travel would have to take a long time to make having gates worthwhile.
Perhaps 1 light year per hour, where stars are typically 10 light years apart.
There are some interesting implications then:
* No Chat / No Local (Galnet or whatever it's called hasn't reached that far)
* No Clones, since there is no way of registering back when you die.... Not quite sure how exactly that'd work though
* Running out of fuel. Say your hyperspace engines need fuel of some sort and you get to your destination only to find the gas station has been raided, leaving you stuck forever
* No Concord
* No Markets
***
Spoon Thumb - I can scoop ice cream with my thumbs!
orange
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.06.29 21:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
Clearly, any sort of non-gate travel would have to take a long time to make having gates worthwhile.
Perhaps 1 light year per hour, where stars are typically 10 light years apart.
There are some interesting implications then:
* No Chat / No Local (Galnet or whatever it's called hasn't reached that far)
* No Clones, since there is no way of registering back when you die.... Not quite sure how exactly that'd work though
* Running out of fuel. Say your hyperspace engines need fuel of some sort and you get to your destination only to find the gas station has been raided, leaving you stuck forever
* No Concord
* No Markets
I think travel taking 10 hours is a little extreme. 5 minutes would be enough, I could jump 6 or 7 jumps in that time using gates so I would have to have good reason to use this method instead.
Fuel? Yes, I think it should need fuel of some sort but with gates still available, you can still get back if you run out. To stop people running out half way between systems, it should tell you if you have enough fuel or not to make the jump and prevent you making the jump if you don't have enough. Then, you'd have to use the gates instead. But you may need to run the gauntlet through them with your adversary knowing you don't have the fuel to jump without them so people would ensure that they have enough fuel for a return trip just in case.
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Jack Amarr
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Posted - 2006.06.29 21:30:00 -
[17]
as any player will tell you, gates are the main focus point of 99% of all pvp encounters. gates are the bottlenecks and without them there would be no clear boundaries. no border lines, no contested areas. it is my belief the whole structure of the alliance wars would fade and evrything would be mangled together in a confused mush, with everyone shooting everyone. the idea to get rid of gates is worse than the idea to add a fps element to tha game...utter tripe.
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[INSIN]erate you foes
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Jojin
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Posted - 2006.06.29 21:43:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Jojin on 29/06/2006 21:45:32
I would like to see an alternative to gates. At this time perhaps it could simply be a research project. A giant Wirly-Gig that could basically slingshot you to your destination. Of course being it is experimental the accuracy is limited to a single region so you just pick one and no telling where in it you will end up. One of these would provide an interesting way to distribute players.
Then if it was negatively affect the game, they discover the technology used is interfering in the game so you can only choose Empire or Alliance location. On the other hand maybe the it isn't so bad and they make a few others.
Heh Dunno. But the idea of no-gates isn't a good one. Space is too vast and if you remove focal points the chances of two players crossing paths will decrease exponentially. Players need encounters to make the game a MMO.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.29 23:39:00 -
[19]
Zmey, WHAT warning system? They can turn up in free warp at ANY time.
And nearest space? Fine, I'll warp back to me home system with its fleet of defending BS
WHAT aspects? Oh yea, boredom and dying, right.
Drizit, yea, but consider the downsides.
No way to engage people without them leaving for another system...
No way to defend anything, their fleet turns off outside your POS and kills it anytime they like, you respond and they're off somewhere you can't follow again...
Homogonisation of the market...
And creating choke points is a POSITIVE.
"jump in points would be random"
WHA? Hardly implicit. You pick a target in the system you want to go to, and long-warp to is the simple and logical system.
See an enemy on scanner/local? Leave to another system. They can't stop or trap you, ever. (It takes more than 10s to exit warp). And if I cant engage and warp, then I WON'T engage in the vast majority of situations since I HAVE to assume that their entire fleet is going to turn up. It makes it a pure numbers game.
And I have to duck and dodge several times after I leave, right.
And yes, it'd cause an exodus from highsec. Straight to WoW. That's one way of "solving" Eve's problems, but hardly one I'd recomend.
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Dutarro
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Posted - 2006.06.30 04:58:00 -
[20]
There already is an alternative to gate travel in EVE, the jump drive. Making jump drives available on more affordable ships will have many of the effects the OP is looking for, but with much less development cost to CCP.
As for the cyno field requirement, if many more players were jump-capable, there might be enough demand to support cyno field generation as a business. Just convo the local cyno vendor wherever it is you're going, gang up and jump to him.
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Frank Horrigan
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Posted - 2006.06.30 05:41:00 -
[21]
REPLACE ALL SPACE WITH JELLO!
EVERYTHING WILL BE BEAUTIFULL!
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qilin
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Posted - 2006.06.30 10:39:00 -
[22]
no gates is a slightly silly idea, its would eliminate pvp as nobody would ahve a clue where anyone was and you could jump suddenly to the other side of eve, it would make the whole game into carebear land
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Ace Garp1
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Posted - 2006.06.30 13:56:00 -
[23]
How about making it so that you fly through gates with out appearing in a system, meaning it would be impossible for 10 people to tie a gate up and stop hundreds from traveling (n-real and bwf-zz spring to mind)
that way you can travel 20 jumps with out hassle
but when you get to your destination you are asked if you wish to leave the warp system . when you click yes you are then randamly expelled into the system at no pre-determined destination
this way you can actually travel through eve with out idiots at gates stopping you from doing anything
you can fly anywhere you want and only have to worry about the enemy in the destination system you going to
this would eliminate all gate camps and also open up 0.0 to everyone
i always see people being newbs to come to 0.0 if they could get there in one peice then they would go
What the frig can i put here ? |
Atropos Kahn
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Posted - 2006.06.30 14:40:00 -
[24]
What about spawning further away from the gate than what is current... say expanding the spawn to 200-300 KM from gate... would force the campers to spread out, plus being at a 250+ distance, you could still warp close to the gate you spawned from fo what ever reason without having to spend 10 minutes flying to it...
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2006.06.30 15:47:00 -
[25]
EvE is a Pie with no meat. We fight on the crust. Before you can remove the crust you need to add the meat. Otherwise there will be nowhere to fight.
Sorry I'm hungry.
Theres nowhere to go in EvE. Its either to a gate or a station. There needs to be something in EvE, that cause people to want to go to it and to defend it.
And it needs to be bigger then 20km square - the radius of a warp disrupter.
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2006.06.30 15:48:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 30/06/2006 15:49:08
Originally by: Atropos Kahn
What about spawning further away from the gate than what is current... say expanding the spawn to 200-300 KM from gate... would force the campers to spread out, plus being at a 250+ distance, you could still warp close to the gate you spawned from fo what ever reason without having to spend 10 minutes flying to it...
Thats a good idea. Also you warp in at a random 250km location. Then you can warp from there straight to the jump point without instas.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:23:00 -
[27]
Right, so in other words sniping is now the one viable tactic...
You REALLY need to think these things through.
Infinity Ziona, then make a detailed proposal in another thread about "what there should be", but bluntly chokepoints are what causes conflict. No conflict, no Eve.
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.07.01 01:32:00 -
[28]
I think players cause conflict in Eve. Considering how many have joined Eve in the past few months, how many of those have made the move to 0.0? I'd say probably close to 1/100 actually choose to move to 0.0 or even lowsec.
The main reason is because of the gates. You still have stations and belts and eventually you will also have planets when the planetary interaction comes into play. Lots of places that people need to go still. The gates and constant gate camping is a source of stalemate, CCP want people to migrate but they won't all the while they are going to get ganked by gate campers as soon as they poke their heads around the corner.
I have been to 0.0 but only on Sisi. The 5 times I tried on TQ, I got ganked before I'd even got past 0.3 and that was using instas. Many player rats are using inty's to zoom up and scramble you before you get into warp on exit from the gate. Unless you are in a frig or a similar fast ship, you don't have much chance. Even if you make it in a frig, what the hell use is a frig in lowsec against players in HACs?
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Spoon Thumb
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Posted - 2006.07.01 11:16:00 -
[29]
Let me re-iterate how I could see gates and hyperspacing / travel without gates working TO-GE-THER:
* There are lots of new systems that aren't divided into regions or constellations or anything. they are just random stars scattered across the eve universe.
* These stars / systems HAVE NO GATE
* This means you can only travel to and from them with a hyperspace drive or whatever
* There will still be all the existing systems which will still have gates. You can travel to them via gates OR with a hyperspace drive
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Say you are in an alliance war and your alliance is invading some 0.0 region. You can
* Attack by hyperspaceing from your home systems
or
* Use gates just like now.
Advantages of Hyperspacing over Using Gates:
* Element of Surprise. The enemy don't know exactly where and when you will turn up in their system. Hence no choke points, gate camping etc.
Disadvantages
* It takes all day to get there .... You have to set your ships off in the morning before work and hope that you get back just before they arrive.
* You may not have enough fuel to escape. If hyperspacing used fuel and your invading fleet runs out or fuel ships are destroyed etc, you may be forced to escape via the gate system, blasting your way though the gate camps set up in front of you.
------------------------------------------------------------
Say you are a small corp with no standings or uber ships or whatever and you want to go off and explore 0.0
You could buy a hyperdrive engine module and fit it to a couple of retrievers, a couple of ravens and a couple of badgers.
The Ravens / BS are used as defence whilst the retrievers mine away. At the end of the op, the badgers jettison the hyperspace fuel which they carried in from empire. The rest of the fleet pick up the fuel and the empty badgers fill up with rocks and the whole lot hyperspace home, nice and happy
***
Spoon Thumb - I can scoop ice cream with my thumbs!
orange
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:26:00 -
[30]
Getting rid of gates ould be good. This will add more realism to the game and make low sec more accesible to players. With the improvements with system scan and probes in kali1 it's not as if alliances can't defend their space. Who cares about some loner or a spy, spies are gonna get in anyway and lone freelancer types aren't that big a deal.
-AS |
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